Last year, my husband decided to go back to graduate school, and without consulting with me took a position at a school that was more than 500 miles away. We have 2 daughters, and as hard as it was on all of us I tried to be both mom and dad at the same time. It wasn't always perfect, but we seemed to have had a system going until he came back home for the summer.

My husband and I started dating over 13 years ago, and we've now been married for over 10. I could never ask for a better dad for my girls.

While we were dating, I was away at graduate school ~50 miles away. He would always sulk whenever I had to study with a group that included men. We once broke up over a friend of mine from college had to use my apartment to stay overnight for an interview at my school the following morning (the way I did with another colleague when I interviewed). He even received a speeding ticket for going at 125 miles/hour in a 55 zone after our big fight. Even when we were making up our wedding invitation list a year later, he refused to let me invite this guy to our wedding.

When I became pregnant with our first daughter, I was still away at school, we had a brief separation because he started telling the whole world, including my father, that the baby was not his. We eventually put all of that behind us. Other things would come up in conversation- including my husband mentioning rumors going around (perhaps started in his head since he could never name his sources) that I was having affairs with various people at church. I've even had to give up going to dinner once a month with 2 of my colleagues from work (one male and one female) because my husband did not feel comfortable with that arrangement. He felt that as a married woman, I should stay at home in the evenings and not hang out with my "single friends."

Last year when my husband left for grad school, I took a ballroom dancing class, and knowing the type of person my husband was, opted to take the class with his nephew (who is almost 12 years my junior). My husband went so far as to insinuate that I was sleeping with his nephew.

I also started training for a half-marathon, and of course I had to hear about how there had to be a man involved because I never undertake a project without an ulterior motive. We even started going to therapy because he felt that I wasn't spending enough time with the family because of my training schedule. We eventually resolved the marathon-training issue and I thought all was well on the home front.

I guess I've committed the ultimate no-no in my husband's book. I developed a close friendship with a male co-worker. At first it started out as an October rivalry because we were rooting for rival baseball teams during the post season, but after my closest friend took an 8-week vacation earlier this summer, he sort of replaced her as my coffee buddy in the morning. The only problem was he was neither a girl, nor gay, and worse, he worked in the cutodial department and has a motorcycle which my husband is sure I'm always riding on.

I've told my husband everything there needs to be said about this guy, even the fact that I've spoken to his girlfriend on numerous occasions. I've been very open and honest about the nature of my relationship with the guy, but everything I say has managed to come back around and get used in a negative way. Yesterday was the last straw for my husband who now is at a crossroads and doesn't know what to do about my utter disregard for his love and disrespect for my marriage- and what might you say triggered this? a text message from the guy ridiculing the fact that my baseball team failed to make it to the post season.

I think my husband is trying to find excuses to leave and wants to put the blame on me, but I cannot figure out what his ulterior motive may be. Please help.

Your husband has extreme self-esteem issues. Insane jealousy is a symptom of a person who believes you will stop loving him at at moment because, deep down, he knows you know he's unlovable. Silly but true.

First, you should stop spending time with this friend. It IS disrespectful to your husband to have a male friend. The only instance in which it would be acceptable is if you, your husband, he, his girlfriend, and others get together. No emails, no phone calls. If you've been doing this all along, you're just egging on his self-doubt and jealousy.

That said, the best thing you can do is read here about Love Busters and Emotional Needs. Find out what LBs you do that your husband doesn't like. Then STOP doing them. After a month or two of following that, determine what his ENs are, and make sure that you are meeting all of them.

If he's getting the strokes he needs from you (ENs) and you're not doing things you know upset him, he should calm down and start trusting you and believing you when you say that you love him.

If this works, you could try asking him to do the same on his side, so that your marriage gets even better.

The problem with ending my relationship with this guy is how many friends do I have to lose before my husband works out his insecurities?

He at one point tried to pit me against my sister because she is the one whom I was training with for the half-marathon. I can't even spend time with my female friends as previously illustrated. Each time my husband finds something about me that takes me away from the house even briefly I have to endure all kinds of accusations and verbal abuse. I've never spent time with this guy outside of work and yet over these past couple of days he has dominated every conversation between my husband and me. When I brought up the issue of maybe hanging out with the other couple, my husband flatly refused.

It's not that this guy is the best, most indispensable friend ever, it's just that when is it going to be enough?

I agree with everything Catperson wrote. Your husband does have self-esteem issues, however, you being friends with a man is dangerous territory. Look at my signature, I know from experience that what seems like an innocent friendship with a man can evolve into an emotional affair, then lead to a physical one. I too was open and honest with my husband about my "friend" until my feelings for the OM started to change.

Have you read His Needs Her Needs? You both would benefit tremendously from it. Learn all you can about the Love Bank.

MrsZ

It's going to be enough when you set up boundaries and enforce them. You can spend time with any person you want to. You CHOOSE not to, to avoid the verbal beatdown H gives you. Believe me, I know. But that doesn't make it HIS fault. He's using the dysfunctional methods that served him as a child in an environment that created his low self esteem in the first place. He doesn't even know what he's doing. But you are the one here. You can do something to change your dynamics.

My advice? Get a sense of humor.

Every time he makes an accusation or tries to control you, answer it with a joke or lightheartedness. "Honey, I know you can't seriously think I'm going to get it on with Nancy. You're really being funny today. I'll see you when the Bunko game is over. If you need me, here's Sarah's address and phone number."

There's a great little book called The Dance of Anger. It's not what you think. It's about the anger YOU have at having to be a Giver all the time, and how to stop doing it. In it, it shows how, when you stop the dysfunctional pattern you're in - giving up your friends, family, hobbies, just to make H happy, which of course never does - you need to reassure him that you're not leaving him. You give him other strokes for his cooking or job or watching movies with you, whatever makes him understand you love him. But at the same time, you fix your Giver. (just not with a male friend!)

Basically, you give him positive reinforcement for backing off on the jealousy, not saying something when you go to your sister's, not arguing with you. If he DOES argue, you calmly say, "I won't listen to disrespectful talk. I know you don't mean to, you're just upset. So I'm going for a walk, and when I come back, we can discuss this calmly and logically." And then you do. More positive reinforcement.

See how it works? You both start getting what you need.

MSD, it sounds like you do an awful lot of things that aggravate your husband. My question is WHY? Do you want to remain married? Because if you go out of your way in this manner to aggravate your husband and cause him to feel MORE insecure, he is going to fall out of love with you. What you are doing to him is cruel and thoughtless.

If you know he is JEALOUS, why would you do things that ADD TO THAT, instead of doing things to reassure him? Do you not LOVE HIM?

Married people are not supposed to have opposite sex friendships. That is how affairs start. He is right to be concerned and should not trust you, given that you seemingly observe no boundaries and don't respect his feelings.

HIS INSECURITY IS A RATIONAL REACTION TO YOUR LACK OF BOUNDARIES. He knows you do not operate with sane boundaries and take foolish risks with your marriage.

As far as your activities that are done ALONE that aggravate him so, why would you continue to do them if you KNOW they aggravate him? I would take a hard look at the Policy of Joint Agreement and at the book LOVEBUSTERS. Your Independent behavior is a huge lovebuster that will continue to cause problems in your marriage.

I would add that your husband seriously needs to set protective boundaries and protect himself from your behavior. Can you send him here?

You shouldn't put any "friend" before your marriage! You need to stop doing things that MAKE him insecure. You are knowingly aggravating him and then putting him down for being AGGRAVATED! How disrespectful!

If my husband falls out of love with me it won't be because of my lack of love for him. His insecurities predated me by decades.


I excercised unconditional trust when he left to go live alone for grad school for an entire year. Why can't he return the favor. Also, what sense would it make for me to start an affair now that my husband has returned and not last year when I it would have been more feasible. How can you know what boundaries I do or do not observe?


Please seek some counseling to find out why YOU are so angry. I came to find some possible solution to improving my marriage. So far I've gotten some very helpful suggestions, but you are in no position, emotionally to advise anyone at this time.

Respectfully yours,
MSD

It will be becasue you INTENTIONALLY aggravate him. Your behavior is a lovebuster and YOU KNOW IT. This is how people fall out of love. If you know your H is "insecure" as you say, then WHY would you pursue interests that make him MORE insecure? That makes no sense, MSD.


There is no such thing as "unconditional trust." What you are doing now is practicing SLOPPY boundaries and he SHOULD NOT TRUST YOU. If you have opposite sex friendships, he should not trust you becasue you are taking unneccesary risks.

It is not lack of trust that destroys marriages, but a lack of boundaries.


MSD, this isn't about me or my supposed "anger," it is about your disrespect for your husband. [my marriage is very happy, btw, yours is not] Please understand that your actions are greatly contributing to your husband's "insane jealousy." It makes no sense whatsoever to complain about his "jealousy" and then in the next breath tell us about behavior that directly CAUSES IT.

It doesnt matter if he was that way 40 years ago. What matters is that he is your husband, and if you love him, you will STOP doing things that you know hurt him. You will never have a happy marriage or a happy husband until you do.

MSD, but don't feel alone. I also had problems with Indepedent behavior and it caused enormous problems in my marriage. When I stopped this lovebuster, my H relaxed and we get along better and are more in love than before. The principle here is never be the source of your partners unhappiness.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3400_lovebust.html


http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3406_independent.html

... Right... and you feel the need to reiterate the sentence within the brackets because... Again please seek some professional help to get to the bottom of your unresolved issues.

This is not junior high school. I am not competing with anyone right now for happiest couple of the day. I am facing a serious issue and I am not looking for infantile back and forth banter about whose home is happy and who has loose boundaries. I guess the only way to truly work through this is to have some face-to-face time with a professional.

MelodyLane, your juvenile rants have managed to turn me off to this forum. Good bye

MSD, just an FYI, but marriage counseling has the highest FAILURE rate of any of the counseling disciplines at 84%. Your average MC doesn't have any idea how to fix a marriage. Dr. Harley *IS* a professional, however, and DOES know how to save marriages.

He has some really good books out that you could probably benefit from if you keep an open mind. The ones I think would help most are:

Lovebusters
Fall in Love, Stay in Love
His Needs,Her Needs
Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders

In fact, here is a description of a buyer, renter and freeloader in marriage that I found real helpful:

Freeloader is unwilling to put much effort into the care of his or her partner in a romantic relationship. He or she does only what comes naturally and expects only what comes naturally. It's like a person who tries to live in a house without paying rent or doing anything to improve it unless the person is in the mood to do so.

Renter is willing to provide limited care as long as it's in his or her best interest. The romantic relationship is considered tentative, so the care is viewed as short-term. It's like a person who rents a house and is willing to stay as long as the conditions seem fair, or until he or she finds something better. The person is willing to pay reasonable rent and keep the house clean but is not willing to make repairs or improvements. It's the landlord's job to keep the place attractive enough for the renter to stay and continue paying rent.

Buyer is willing to demonstrate an extraordinary sense of care by making permanent changes in his or her own behavior and lifestyle to make the romantic relationship mutually fulfilling. Solutions to problems are long-term solutions and must work well for both partners because the romantic relationship is viewed as exclusive and permanent. It's like a person who buys a house for life with a willingness to make repairs that accomodate changing needs, painting the walls, installing new carper, replacing the roof, and even doinf some remodeling so that it can be comfortable and useful.

Actually Mel is giving you some sound advice. You may like a more touchy feely approach, but her message is clear...educated and based on years of experience.

You came here looking for help. I suggest that you don't dismiss someone as valuable as Mel just because you got your feathers ruffled.

YOU have engaged in some very inappropriate and insensitive behaviors that have helped fuel your husbands insecurities. HE needs to work on his issues and YOU need to stop making them worse by your actions.

You husband does need to set some boundaries. You spend entirely too much time with the opposite sex. I am pretty laid back about male/female friendships and even I would NOT be comfortable with your actions or attitude.

BTW...your husband does need help. BUT, NO ONE should be trusted unconditionally. No one.

Control.


1. You may run alone....but he won't join you to prove it.
2. You may go to the gym...and he will accuse you of 'meeting men'.
[ he would NEVER GO with you....because then he has the excuse that you have screwed the whole male gym population...and he couldn't stand to be seen there."
3. He cooks up a "rumor" and hopes that you will "say" something to spill the beans...his "source" is his imagination.
4. Your friend with the GF, is a MALE...oh no...50% of the world population is male...they MUST all be cheaters...it's only 'natural" and of course....so must you...based on the evidence of his imagination. *nice*

You could suggest to him that you wear a collar with a GPS system...if is would appease his lack of self worth...but he would deny that too...

You COULD;
1. Quit your job.
2. Wear Blinders when ever you go out, so that you don't accidentally SEE a male and want to screw him.
3. Chain yourself to the house door with iron shackles and give him the key.

OR:

1. LEAVE....and inform him that a cranial rectal operation is in order before you consider going back.
2. This is a bad idea....but when the crap gets too much....smash a bottle over his head...might "wake him up"
H currently sporting 11 stitches...however....I can charge him...and he can charge me..*shrugs*

ML, while I agree she’s egging him on and needs to stop, as I said, I do see a streak of controlling tendencies in him. Which will NOT respond to MB steps if he cannot get his insecurity under control. It’s possible that she’s not telling the truth, and has been a big flirt all her life. But it’s also possible that she married someone who’s so insecure that he tries to control everything she does just to reassure himself that she will never leave. I know, I’m married to one of them.

For the first 10 years of our marriage, I gave up everything to please him, one after another, as he accused me of one thing or another, or criticized them, I just start excising them from my life so he wouldn't have a reason to gripe at me; but he'd just find another thing I was doing wrong. Friends, family, exercising, hobbies…nothing was ever enough. He still accused me of wanting to leave him all the time. And when D18 came along, and I HAD to interact with other people, he really went nuts, cos I’d been such a good, agreeable wife for 10 years, and here I was, saying I needed to stop at the store for more diapers, so I’d be 20 minutes late getting home. Why? I should have gotten more last time! I should have planned better! I should have done it at lunch! He works so hard, and all I do is go gallivanting around having fun all the time. Yada yada.

We don’t know the truth of her story, but if he indeed has such tendencies, she can give up, give up, give up, and it will never be enough. Which is what she alluded to.

What’s happening, IMO, is that her self-preservation is finally kicking in, and she’s starting to question giving up so much for so long, and is inappropriately reaching out to someone who doesn’t treat her that way, i.e. affair waiting to happen.

Sure, she could be egging him on. But these are not normal situations:
* he started telling the whole world, including my father, that the baby was not his.
* my husband mentioning rumors going around (perhaps started in his head since he could never name his sources) that I was having affairs with various people at church
* My husband went so far as to insinuate that I was sleeping with his nephew.
* there had to be a man involved because I never undertake a project without an ulterior motive
* I can't even spend time with my female friends as previously illustrated. Each time my husband finds something about me that takes me away from the house even briefly I have to endure all kinds of accusations and verbal abuse.

catperson, yes she is egging him on. She is actively aggravating him with independent, obnoxious behavior and then complaining that he is "insecure" and controlling when he asks her to consider his feelings. Of course he is "insecure;" she has sloppy boundaries and is thoughtless of his feelings. He SHOULD BE "insecure" with such thoughtlessness.

What kind of spouse torments a supposedly "insecure" spouse? What kind of spouse has male "friends" with an "insanely jealous" husband? Ask yourself that...


1. I developed a close friendship with a male co-worker.

2. but after my closest friend took an 8-week vacation earlier this summer, he sort of replaced her as my coffee buddy in the morning

3. Yesterday was the last straw for my husband who now is at a crossroads and doesn't know what to do about my utter disregard for his love and disrespect for my marriage- and what might you say triggered this? a text message from the guy ridiculing the fact that my baseball team failed to make it to the post season.

4. The problem with ending my relationship with this guy is how many friends do I have to lose before my husband works out his insecurities?

5. It's not that this guy is the best, most indispensable friend ever, it's just that when is it going to be enough?

6. We even started going to therapy because he felt that I wasn't spending enough time with the family because of my training schedule.

[why was the answer to go to therapy? Why wasn't the answer to STOP her training shedule if she knew it aggravated him?]

7.I think my husband is trying to find excuses to leave and wants to put the blame on me,

8. He felt that as a married woman, I should stay at home in the evenings and not hang out with my "single friends."

9. We once broke up over a friend of mine from college had to use my apartment to stay overnight for an interview at my school the following morning (the way I did with another colleague when I interviewed)

10. I've even had to give up going to dinner once a month with 2 of my colleagues from work (one male and one female) because my husband did not feel comfortable with that arrangement.

What will resolve the problem is CEASING the lovebusting, including stopping with the DISRESPECTFUL JUDGMENTS of calling him "insecure" and "insanely jealous." This is not hard problem. It looks pretty obvious to me. That has to start with her. She can't control HIM but she can control her own irritating, disrespectful behavior. She needs to start with the lady with the mirror using tried and true MB principles.

"Controlling" is the common refrain of spouses who don't want to stop independent, disrespectful behavior. I used to say my husband was "controlling" and "abusive" when he objected to my thoughtless, independent behavior. Funny how he stopped being "controlling" when I stopped tormenting him with thoughtlessness and independent behavior. The whole dynamic of my marriage changed when that happened.

catperson, you seem real unfamiliar with the MB program. Can I ask which books you have read?

1. Can you leave the house while your H was informed, forget your cell phone, and return home without the Spanish Inquisition?
2. Can you RUN alone without having to account for it? [ He knows where you are running and can come and check if he wants to..]
3. Can you join a gym for your health and not get 'grilled' for whom you SAW or SPOKE to? [ He has been invited to join but chooses not to]
4. Can you go out for coffee with GF's and return later than intended without being accused of cheating? [ he has the phone numbers of these GF's and can call to VERIFY if he chooses NOT to believe her whereabouts?]
Do you breathe without his "consent"?

The Male Friend....IS a problem. However that is easily rectified, He can MEET him and his GF, but he CHOOSES not to. She is caught in the TRAP. Accuse without evidence. Then she jumps around trying to appease him....and he just raises the stupidity level of his Demands....pointless.

IF He is so in fear of her "promiscuity" HE should leave. It's NOT about her....it's him digging at her and in keeping the "peace' she caves in....and then MORE of the same idiocy will rear it's ugly head.

Get DNA tests done on the children to shut him up. [ that appears to be the OLD problem...so now he has cooked up NEW ones to yank your chain...gets OLD doesn't it? ]


Training with your SISTER and ballroom dancing with HIS nephew....and he "insinuates" infidelity? ....Nutz. It's a GAME. A control game.

Turn the tables....and watch HIM go up in flames!!! Learn the non-rules of his idiocy and inflict them on him. Probably go ballistic on you....but worth it just for the satisfaction.

Get counseling.
*Lovely....*

Sit him down and ask him WHERE he gets that crap from....usually the ACCUSER is the one doing the 'cheating.' Funny how that works. He creates a cloud of BS to throw you off his own trail.

SD, your post indicates that you miss the point entirely and don't have the slightest notion of what constitutes a happy marriage, much less about the basics of Marriage Builders. Following such disrespectful advice as "inform him that a cranial rectal operation is in order" and "inflict idiocy on him" is not helpful. It is idiotic. Being disrespectful is what got her into this mess, common sense dictates it is not going to be the solution.

It is not about what she is "allowed" to do. He is not her big poppa daddy, after all. She can do whatever she wants. She is not a child.

It is about her willingness to STOP being disrespectful and thoughtless. It is about stopping the DISRESPECT. It is about stopping being a TAKER in her marriage and learning to use the POJA. Her thoughtless behavior triggers his angry outbursts.

You told her earlier to: "1. LEAVE....and inform him that a cranial rectal operation is in order before you consider going back." GOOD GRIEF.

That was real helpful...........NOT. Lovebusting is not the ticket to a happy marriage.


Wow, that will surely lead to a happy marriage!

SD, nothing you have recommended here will help the problem. It will only make it worse. Nor is it even close to Marriage Builders basic concepts.

ML, I'm completely familiar with MB. I've read all of the books here, as well as probably 100 others. I suppose you have, too? Have you read "Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men"? Every quote I listed from her post describing her husband can be found in that book. So, yes, I DO think he is controlling due to his own self-esteem issues.

I do believe I did agree with you about her own behavior, did I not? You seem to have a tendency to tell nearly every woman here that if she would just give in and give up wanting things that have anything to do with anything besides their husbands, everything would be fine. Well, guess what? With some spouses, that just doesn't work.

You are putting your own history on your answers, just like I do. But when it comes to disruptive, possibly abnormal behavior - something I have a lot of experience with - you dismiss it as the woman just being selfish.

I've been using MB for a year now. It has made some headway with my H and with me, but it has NOT changed his absolute need to be right and in charge in every instance. Does your husband, when he tells you to pick up the sponge, and he meant to say brush, and you ask "Sponge?" because you have no idea what he's talking about (no sponge in the vacinity), does your husband get angry and say "DON'T QUESTION ME!"?

THAT is controlling behavior. No matter how much of myself I have given up, no matter how affectionate I am, no matter how much time I spend on his work and his personal issues, he takes it and asks for more. No, demands and expects more.

You apparently were being selfish with your husband and he reacted. You stopped, he stopped reacting. Pretty simple equation. I have stopped every thing I can think of. I haven't seen my best friend in 5 years because H questions why I have to spend time away from him. My other friend I've seen once in 5 years, only because she met me for lunch at my work. When I try to see my 75 year old mom once a month, he asks why I have to go.

I see the same traits in several of the posters here. I've been living with it for 30 years because I've been stupid and have no self-esteem (big surprise). But when I see someone here heading down that slope, I WILL mention the possibility so that they can at least question the possibility and maybe save themselves from the h&ll I've put myself through by accepting it.

ML, everything you suggest is great for two relatively mentally healthy people. But he has all the signs of a controlling abusive person, no matter how much you don't want to see it. Fine. Don't see it. But don't tear down other people just cos they don't attend to your viewpoint. She needs to consider ALL possibilities. And if she is indeed married to a controlling person, she will NEVER get help from MB principles, because he will use that Giver against her.

I am a grown woman who can do any damn thing I choose so it makes no sense to say "can you" to an ADULT. Of course I CAN. And so can she. WE ARE ADULTS.

But what I also CAN DO if I want to have a happy marriage is not CHOOSE TO be the source of my husbands unhappiness. IF I WANT TO HAVE A HAPPY MARRIAGE. If my H were "insecure" and "insanely jealous" I would NOT go out and act like a single person. I would not do it anyway because it is destructive to marriages.

If he felt uneasy when I went running, I would take steps to eliminate his uneasiness by either running WITH HIM or using my elliptical in the house. OR NOT RUNNING AT ALL. If my H felt uncomfortable with me joining a gym, I WOULD NOT JOIN THE GYM. DUH! I would not CHOOSE to be the source of my husband's unhappiness.

Just as I don't want him to CHOOSE to be the source of my unhappiness. That street goes both way. That is what a person does to achieve a HAPPY MARRIAGE. And it works!

It DOESN'T work with a controlling, abusive husband. Nothing will ever be enough. Please do some reading on abusive personalities, and you will see that giving up everything you like will never satisfy such a person, because he still has to keep finding other ways to keep you walking on eggshells so you remain dependent on not pissing him off and on pleasing him.

ML, if you would research abuse victims, you would know that this is ABSOLUTELY not true of them. They CANNOT do whatever they please. You don't understand the mindset of a person who has been programmed, if you will, to NOT displease her H so that she doesn't bring on yet another tirade from him on what she has done wrong.

A healthy ego will tell him to go stuff it. An abuse victim will cry, hate herself, and ask him how to make up for it.

A world of difference. And why 90% of abuse victims can never leave their abuser - their identity, their self-worth, is stripped from them. If you don't understand the mentality, please don't try to treat it. You have no idea what it's like.

cat, with all due respect, I don't believe you do understand the basic concepts of Marriage Builders and how a happy marriage is built. The POJA dictates that a spouse do nothing without the others enthusiastic agreement. That is a critical component. So I don't even know what you MEAN when you say I tell nearly every woman to "give in." I do no such thing. There is no giving in, there is negotiating an ENTHUSIASTIC AGREEMENT. There is treating your spouse with respect. BASIC Marriage Builders concepts.

I see nothing "controlling" with her H. I see very typical behavior coming from a man who is married to a woman who is profoundly thoughtless and disrespectful; who is committed to independent behavior.

This is a spouse who tells us her H is "insecure" and "insanely jealous" yet she deliberately does things she knows is hurtful and aggravating. When he objects he is subjected to disrespectful judgments such as "controlling" and "insanely jealous."

Sorry, but I don't buy it. He is very right to object her thoughtlessness and that has nothing to do with being "controlling."

It does this woman a disservice to give credence to the notion that her H is "insecure" and "controlling" when the focus should be on stopping her thoughtless behavior that she knows aggravates him.

continued at: link

She is not a victim and she is not being abused. Of course she can do as she pleases. All women are not silly hapless victims, cat. sigh...

ML..much as I appreciate your POV...I disagree with your suggestions. My suggestions are no better..LOL...but I know that yours ....are "worse"...

You don't "make a happy marriage" but cutting off your own right to BREATHE and get his "permission" for everything. Doesn't work. Not with a control freak that uses 'guilt' and manipulative insinuations to "get his way." Which is precisely what he has been doing.

Read Patricia Evans on Verbal Abuse.
Lundy Bancroft as Cat suggested...you will see a very different animal.
LOL...with an abusive controller...it is PRECISELY that.

She can NEVER do anything she wants. He WANTS HER HOME. Full stop.

Why on EARTH should a RUN be "damaging" to a marriage???

DOES NOT COMPUTE.

LEAVING is the ONLY option a woman has to get an abusive personality to briefly glimpse daylight, and even then...it's almost never effective.

IF he truly BELIEVES that she is having ALL these affairs....Why on God's green earth does he stay?? For what?

He knows it is baloney, but he uses it to jerk her chain to make her feel "guilty" for who knows what and how...but that is how these guys "control"...it's SUBTLE...and chokes the life out of a person. Any tiny sign of having the capacity for Independent thought that does NOT revolve around being his "Yes Man" is his Call to ABUSE at Will.

Not fun...

MB principles work with Mentally Healthy people ...not abusers.

ex. Applying the MB principles: My H asked if I am cheating on him,,,,or why be so Nice?

Talk about a kick in the teeth! Couple days later...I brought it up calmly to him that this hurt. Then he tells me it was a "joke,"....my cute butt it was! He was not smiling laughing nor joking at the time he said it. Straight out of the blue.

Cruel.
When your stone cold dead....they're "happy."...One of the walking dead...doing what you're told...nothing more. And jumping around trying to read their fool minds.

Rules are constantly changing...it's, in short, a crap way to live.
When she Tells him to go stuff it...or is more polite about it...or not, for that matter... you know what happens?

It gets worse.

SD, I DO work with abusers and abuse victims....and have for a long time.

Does her husband display some troublesome characteristics...without a doubt YES.

Does she fuel the fire by her behaviors...without a doubt YES.

They both need help. The POJA will address much of this...but his self esteem/control issues need to be addressed. HER independent thinking and behaviors also need to be addressed.

There is enough blame to go around here in this marriage. Mel offers some great suggestions....Cat also offers some useful advice (mixed in with some very questionable things as well). And BTW, Cat, I have read the book...along with Dr. H's and sincerely believe that some of the book (Why does he do that?) paints an unfair picture and swings the pendulum too far in some people. In many ways, Bancroft would consider the POJA to be a huge red flag.

SD, a "run" can be damaging to a marriage if the person is doing it with a member of the opposite sex.

The man has some issues for sure. If he does not address them...they cannot have a happy life together. The same goes with her. Right now, the best thing for him would be therapy...and for her...she should stop her destructive behaviors. I would not tolerate some of the things she does....nor should her husband.

Now, if she stops these independent behaviors...and he refuses to get help for his BIG issues, I would say that she should remove herself from this marriage until and if he gets help. Right now it is impossible to tell how much of a role her actions have played here. If, after a short time, there is not a marked improvement in his behaviors, she should get out.

Cat, the point is, they truly CAN do as they please. For a multitude of reasons, they choose not to.

SD, speaking of mental health, the advice you gave above is the most irresponsible advice I have ever seen on this forum:


You might know how to barroom brawl but you don't have a clue how to save a marriage. I dare say that the quotes I posted from Dr Harley are in a different league than yours. You are clearly out of your league, dear.

you didn't HAVE to do this...you chose to against your husbands wishes.


This was thoroughly inappropriate on your part! Your husband(then BF) should have been furious!



As would I.




Based upon your behavior noted above, his concern is not irrational.


again, based on your lack of boundaries with men, I wonder if they really started in his head.


It is NOT appropriate. You are married...you should not be going out with other men. Period. Your place is at home with your family...not hanging out with single friends.


Again, not appropriate.


and your point is what???


yet another example of your thoughtlessness.


sounds like an emotional affair. BTW, did you EVER ride on the bike with him?

YOUR behavior has been entirely inappropriate in regards to other men! YOUR failure to see that speaks volumes about your motives.

All of them, if necessary.

"Forsaking ALL others and keeping myself only unto you, until death do us part."

"In Sickness and in Health, for Richer or for Poorer, for Better or for Worse..."

Sound familiar.

You are MARRIED. Time to start acting married and not single.




When you are Divorced.

Keep going down this path of self-centeredness and you WILL get to that point.


You really don't have a good understanding of what it MEANS to be married and you don't seem to have a commitment to the Marriage or to your husband.

Would you like to learn how to have a good loving marriage?

Or do you want to continue to rationalize and justify your self-centerdness and blame your husband for wanting a WIFE?

For a POV from someone who was abused by a control freak, I do see a lot of similarities to my first M in this. I took more punches for infidelity than the worse WS ever described on this site. For example, if I went into a store and the clerk was male, I must have f***d him (this was the terminology he used). If a male telemarketer called, it must be because I was f***ing him. If I took the garbage out at the same time as a male neighbour, it must have been so I could f*** him. Even if we were walking down the street together and a male was walking the other way, I must want to f*** him. My dr was male - my whole pregnancy was a series of beatings because I must have been turned on by all those check ups. I didn't dare meet any friends, male or female because it didn't matter - if it was male I was f***ing him, if it was female I was lying because I was really f***ing some guy.

So I know exactly what an insanely jealous H is like. I see some of the signs in this post.

However, she most certainly is aggrevating him. In my first M, I wouldn't have dared do ANY of the things she does - not just because of the consequences but because I knew exactly what he would be thinking.

The above is from Dr Harley in his news letter....

The question that I hear being asked all the time is "Don't I deserve to have time to myself?"

Yep. You sure do deserve to have time alone to go to the bathroom, take a shower, get dressed without an audience etc.


Here's some news: You even deserve to have time alone to spend on hobbies and recreational activities.

If a marriage is a promise to each other to provide for each other what Dr Harley calls Extraordinary Care, that is, to actually meet each others most important Emotional Needs and avoid doing things that make each other unhappy (Love Busters) then anything that our spouse considers a Love Buster is a Love Buster, even if it isn't on the good doctor's list.

Why does anyone think that spending nights out partying with single friends, whether same sex or opposite sex, is the right way to build a marriage?

Why would anyone who knows that a certain behavior makes his or her spouse unhappy continue that activity?

Why would anyone want to spend the majority of their time with friends rather than with their spouse? Shouldn't our spouse be our best friend and favorite recreational partner according to Dr Harley?

Doesn't the statement "I deserve..." imply entitlement? Isn't that where the selfish line of reasoning that leads to affairs begins?

Single people hang out with all their friends, go out drinking, party, watch the game down at the bar every Sunday, stay out till the sun comes up, take up hobbies and activities that require long hours away from home and live like no one else matters at all.

Some of us not only get married but also grow up and see that a MARRIAGE is nothing like being single. It is in fact making someone else at least as important as ourselves and what we want to do.

Is this woman's husband abusive and controlling? I have no idea...

Is she acting like a married woman who actually loves her husband and puts the marriage ahead of her own selfishness? I think not...

At least she isn't talking that way...

Mark

Nonsense, SoulDragoN. Stop for a minute and really think about what you are advocating here.

What you are calling a "control freak" I would suggest you think about in terms of the marriage COMMITMENT, freely and voluntarily entered into by both spouses. The marriage premise is simple: exclusivity of one another and putting the needs (best addressed through POJA) of each other ahead of personal wants and desires, ESPECIALLY when they are detrimental to the MARRIAGE.

A marriage is NOT a 50/50 deal, it is a 100%/100% deal with the marriage (and each other as the two parts of that marriage that are invested in each other).

What you are advocating for is the TAKER mentality when the operative mentality should be the GIVER.

Put biblically, "it is better to give than to receive." If you want to receive, then first give.

That is also the premise of the Love Bank philosophy of Dr. Harley. Make "deposits" through giving and before long you will begin to receive return deposits AND the "interest" in both of your "love banks" will begin to return greater and greater "funds" that will strengthen and protect the marriage from "runs on the bank" from outside sources.

*sigh*


If YOU like and THRIVE living in a situation where your EVERY move is questioned, examined and then YOUR INTENT is assigned to YOU....by another...then so be it.

I somehow doubt that most sane individuals would appreciate it. If you have any sense of SELF as an independent organism....you won't.

1. Drinking in pubs with single friends= Not good.
2. Male confidants = Not Good
3. Constant accusations of infidelity without evidence= Not Good
4. RUN alone or with Sister= Perfectly NORMAL...and any Male who has a problem with that, requires a serious and deep investigation of how far past the sphincter muscle his cranial matter has been lost and starved without oxygen.
5. Coffee or dinner with GIRL friends= Perfectly AOK..why not?

6. VERBALLY ABUSING her for any reason= NOT ok.
POJA doesn't work with Abusers. It IS a major Red Flag and the perfect manipulative tool. Forget it. Been there done that....the noose was far too tight.

I will politely tell you to stuff your condescending "dear" ...educate yourself further.

SD, you are not doing this woman any favors telling her she is "abused" and giving her dreadful advice like this:



Like I said before, you might know how to bar-room brawl, but you don't have the slightest idea how to save a marriage. I don't believe I have ever seen Dr Harley advise someone to smash a beer bottle over someone's head, and I do believe he has saved a marriage or two. GOOD GRIEF...

Is that not what I've been saying? She needs to stop all these things that drive him crazy. He needs to stop trying to control her. But her stopping all the things that drive him crazy without addressing HIS issues will NOT solve their problem.

And I believe Bancroft said that POJA (his version) doesn't work with an abusive or controlling person, not a person who's just freaked out by his wife's IB.

Only those two know the real answer. Like I've said, she may just be a big faker and egging him on for fun; h*ll, this could just be a troll. But if he truly has basic insecurities and fears that he compensates for by trying to control his mate, those fears will NOT go away just because she stops doing anything outside spending time with her husband! They won't!

Because he would have deeper issues that will cause him to find NEW ways to get her to prove to him that she loves him. Once she gives up anything but him, he will STILL doubt that she loves him and will keep criticizing her, questioning her, making her defend herself, and it will devolve into a wife who is either a zombie or a suicide victim.

I truly hope that this is just a case of IB and selfishness. I truly hope she learns from all this and tries dropping all that and going the MB way and it works. I just want her to realize that, if after she has tried that and has changed her ways and he continues in this vein, she look at the other, darker option.

catperson, we have seen nothing here that indicates he is really abusive. Just the opposite, we see a woman who describes her H as "insecure" and "insanely jealous" and then in the next breath describes how she has systematically tormented him for years with behavior that would make anyone insecure. And he is the bad guy? ummm no... That dog won't hunt.

There is a much stronger case here of abuse on HER PART. What kind of person purposely torments such an "insecure" person? That speaks volumes about her own intentions.

I agree with MEDC about this likely being an emotional affair. Calling the man "insecure" and "insanely jealous" is to add insult to injury. That is GASLIGHTING, if you ask me.

A "run" can be damaging to a marriage if it is done without consideration given to your spouse. Who it is with really doesn't matter.

A "run" can be damaging to a marriage if it is done to the exclusion of spending time with your spouse meeting each others ENs and making LB$ deposits.

A "run" can be damaging to a marriage if it leaves your spouse home alone to wonder what is going on with you and when you return you say "None of your business because it is MY life."

You can replace the word "run" with fishing, horseback riding, shopping at the mall, taking classes at the community college, gardening or anything else you might want to put ahead of your marriage because you "deserve" to be independent.

Marriage partners are not supposed to be independent. They need to be interdependent.

Husband and wife should not have "my life" and "your life." They should have "our life" as a first priority. This is what Extraordinary Care is supposed to be.

I have no idea if this guy is a control freak or not. I do know that the road to adultery begins with living separate lives and not placing the marriage first over individual desires.

Mark

ML, agreed. As I said, she needs to grow up and stop her IB behavior.

Ludicrous!

Perhaps HER EN's require that she be allowed to BREATHE and enjoy her runs? Not to do so is a MAJOR LB!

That is HIS head game!!! Not hers to own.
She never said it was NONE of his business...he KNEW it was her sister!
If marriage CHOKES the LIFE out of you???

THAT is NOT marriage! Sorry...can't sell me that one. He essentially can cut off ALL her avenues to pursue ANY interests....what the heck kind of life/marriage is that?

I run EVERYDAY and train, Loooong before I ever met my H. You suppose I MUST give that up as well? To make him "happy'....have given up pretty darn much everything else! Where do you suppose it ends? Does she give up her job as well to appease him>? NO...because HE benefits from the income as well.

Whatever HE is benefiting from directly will get his 'stamp of approval'...anything for herself...he can call it an "LB"....control/ manipulation.

He is Isolating her from her family for heaven's sakes. Her own Sister! Where is the LOGIC in that?

I am ALL for interdependence ...but NOT when it chokes my desire to Live. Not worth it...no one and Nothing is.

Affair proofing a marriage is a farce of an excuse.

POJA.

Perhaps you should read up on it since you are here anyway.

How about you stick to the bar room brawls and we'll deal with marriages?

SoulDragon,

I think you misunderstood what I said.

I did not say that a person who is married can have no hobbies, activities that do not include the spouse or even time to simply get away from life all alone and reflect in order to regroup and refresh for the days ahead.

All of that is not only "permissible' but also necessary.

My point was and still is that if your spouse is not in agreement then you should not do anything that causes them discomfort. It isn't about giving them control but about giving them care and concern. It is about making their happiness as important as your own.

You see if you feel that you have the right to be happy at the expense of your spouse's happiness, you aren't exhibiting love for your spouse.

If you don't care if your spouse is unhappy, you don't love your spouse. Love means you care.

While you might want to try to make running an EN, the issue here isn't running. Being asked to account for time isn't a love buster, but Independent Behavior is one for sure.

That is the distinction I wanted to make.

In order for a marriage to work out for the long term both husband and wife must be buyers rather than renters.

Since you haven't been around as long as some who will understand that statement I will explain.

A Buyer is in for the long haul. They OWN the relationship and have made the relationship the focal point of their life. Buyers do whatever it takes to maintain the relationship because it is theirs.

Renters only give in as far as they get in return. A renter doesn't care if the other person is getting what they need because they are only in the relationship as long as it pays off for them. When the payoff stops, they are done. They are only willing to put in what has to be given in order to get what they want for themselves.

A freeloader just wants to "get" all the time and doesn't care whether there is a relationship at all or not. For a freeloader, all that matters is getting. They only stick around until they get a better offer.

An attitude of selfentitlement to do whatever makes me happy at my spouse's expense is that of at best, a renter rather than a buyer. It shows a lack of ownership of the relationship because if you care about the relationship showing care for the spouse is showing care for yourself.

Mark

Mark, you make perfect sense for a normal marriage, with normal people. I think the issue at hand is whether the spouse is indeed abusive. Because if he IS abusive, then this:
is a recipe for disaster. He will NEVER agree to ANYTHING his spouse wants to do away from him. And it won't be because he wants to be with her or loves her. It will be because he knows that 'allowing' her access to the outside world gives her confidence and knowledge that may enable her to leave his sorry self.

I think the major disagreement here is that some people feel the OP's spouse is abusive and some people feel he isn't. As I said, only those two know the truth.

If she's just being selfish and wants to do a bunch of IB, he has every right to be upset with her. If, however, he's hounding her every step and insisting that she do NOTHING outside of being with him, then she needs to either leave (he'll never change) or set boundaries and live with them.

My point was and still is that if your spouse is not in agreement then you should not do anything that causes them discomfort.

But then Mark, I have to ask YOU, what do you do IF the person you married has a problem with jealousy thats OUT OF HAND. Now, maybe to SOME people ANY jealousy is OK, but I really think unbridled JEALOUSY is NOT OK with MOST.

I mean, you go to grad school, your teacher is a world renowned EXPERT at what you are studying, you mention that and BINGO!!!!! your MB partner decides that you are paying WAY to much admiration to this guy so HE or SHE tells you that "because I feel UNCOMFORTABLE with this, you have to drop out>...;..: You know what: Get a LIFE. I married you to ADD to MY life, not to harness it in to storyline that ONLY YOU are the author.

Now , I am in full understanding that NOT ALL PERSONAL interests are OK *( the IB clause) but NEITHER is ANY IB being OK. And I HIGHLY doubt that Dr. Hartley would consider a ONCE A YEAR outing with the boys a bad move simply because ONE spouse can't handle it. If he does, well, maybe this ain't for MOST people. I want to be with my wife 99.9999999999999% of the time, the ONCE every 5 years I want to do something WITHOUT her, if she bums out....THATS on her. AND ANY NORMAL RED BLOODED AMERICAN MALE would agree. And I am REPEATING that. Marriage SHOULD NOT BE a jail sentance, and if YOU think it is......THATS FINE. But not EVERYONE takes that position.

Jealosy SUCKS. Let me spell it out. It SUCKS. And while you have a right to buckle down to a spouse who is UNREASONABLE jealous, fine, thats you. But it ain't everyone. And to hint that someone is a IRRESPONSIBLE spouse because they have AN (as in one or two) interests THAT ARE NOT excuses to set up sexual relationships is just STUPID.

And I know Dr. hartley is a pro with 30 years of experience. So I really think some of his positions are being skewed here. If I'm wrong, let him come and tell me. I think he's being misrepresented here.

Jealousy SUCKS. I can't put it ANY more clearly. Its like SALT. A little goes a long way, TOO MUCH, and you ruin E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G. And this is coming from a RIGHT OFF THE BOAT Italian male who KNOWS, first hand, what being married to a jeolous spouse REALLY MEANS. How, after a while, WAKING UP is a reason for the other spouse to be jealous. Think I'm wrong? Ask how many women have had their azzes BEAT because a telemarketer called and they spent just a little too much time talking to them. Don't think it happens? I did an internship at a womans shelter. It happens. And it happens cause someone thinks it really bad that their spouse isn't 100% attached at the hip 100% of the time.

It sucks. PERIOD.

gabapool, just as in this case, his jealousy comes from her poor boundaries and her practice of TORMENTING him. That has been my experience with most of these cases on this board. This man is not insanely jealous; she is actively tormenting him and has for years. When he objects, she attacks him as "abusive" and "insanely jealous." So very typical of those who practice independent, thoughtless behavior.

[I used to accuse my H of being "controlling," that is the favorite refrain of WOMEN who don't want to be held accountable for their thoughtless behavior]

If anyone has been abused, it is HIM. The answer to a spouse who is jealous is to STOP DOING THINGS THAT MAKE THEM JEALOUS. That isn't hard to figure out. But she is not willing to do that.

If he truly is "insane" ask yourself what kind of a person would torment a mentally ill man? That is beyond comprehension.

As for people who are truly mentally ill, my suggestion would be to get mental help. And to hope that you don't have a spouse who enjoys TORMENTING mentally ill people. Can you imagine being married to someone who truly IS mentally ill and going out of your way to TORMENT THEM? I really can't.

If my spouse were "jealous" I would stop doing things that made them feel that way. If he were mentally ill, I would get him psychological help. But I WOULD NOT torment him.

gabapool, you are missing the point. If your wife disrespects your wishes and does something she knows makes you unhappy, then pretty soon you will FALL OUT OF LOVE with her. If you want your spouse to fall in love and stay with love you, then you must NOT be the source of her unhappiness. That means not lovebusting and meeting her emotional needs.


That is RIGHT. Having romantic love in a marriage is NOT for most people because they are not willing to do waht it takes to protect their love. This is why most couples fall out of love after marriage. They STOP doing the things in marriage that caused them to fall in love while dating.

Going away for a weekend when you KNOW your spouse objects is the kind of thing that causes emotional withdrawal. It is much, much more damaging than just saying "I want to be with my wife 99.999% of the time." She won't want to be with YOU if you disrespect her and cause her to withdraw from you. That is the kind of behavior that causes deep resentment.

But, adults can do whatever they want. You can do whenever you want, when you want. You are free to go! But if you want your wife to be in love with you, then don't disrespect her with lovebusting behaviors.

I would not DREAM of going on a weekend outing with the girls if my H objected because it would make him UNHAPPY. I DON'T WANT MY HUSBAND TO BE UNHAPPY. I DON'T WANT TO BE THE SOURCE OF MY H'S UNHAPPINESS. Honestly, I cannot imagine being so disrespectful to him and vice versa. I CHERISH the passionate love we have in our marriage and would never do anything to ruin that. Independent behavior is a SURE FIRE way to quickly destroy romantic love.

And why do I protect the romantic love in my marriage so vigorously? Because it has dramatically changed the QUALITY of my life. The quality of my marriage has changed the quality of my life...for the better. I am not willing to give that up, AND NEITHER IS MY HUSBAND.

Cat,

I understand what you are saying. But the part you quoted above is intended to work both ways.

If your spouse is abusive, you need to change the dynamic somehow and usually that is by leaving until he (or she) gets real help and shows that he (or she) has changed those behaviors.

My post above was not intended to be a reply as to what I advise the OP, who has not been around in a few days, but was intended as a response to SD. It was SD's statements that I was addressing not suggesting that anyone should really remain in an abusive relationship.

If a marriage is broken in any way it needs to be either fixed or abandoned. This applies to abuse, infidelity that continues long after it is exposed, drinking, drug addiction...Even if divorce is not sought it might be advisable to separate and in the case of abuse I think it is very necessary for protection of the abused spouse.

But SD was arguing about the right to have the freedom to do things without your spouse and even hinted that it can be without his or her agreement. That is what I was referring to, not the cases where one spouse controls, isolates and abuses the other.

If the OP fears for her life, she did not come across that way. She did not say that her husband has isolated her from her friends and family. She did say that he doesn't like it when she spends time with her friends and hinted it applies to family as well.

Either she is soft pedaling the whole thing here or part of the problem really is her IB that makes him have AOs and that dynamic can be changed unilaterally by the OP.

If she had said that when she gets home from visiting friends he is drunk, makes crude remarks, threatens her in any way or any of the other typical abuser actions I would have said that she should find a shelter and get out before it's too late.

I also want to point out that she exhibits none of the typical abused wife justification of the abuser characteristics that are most common in abuse cases. She does not consider herself a victim of abuse, does not try to justify his abuse of her and doesn't seem at all timid in going after what she wants.

She comes across to me as being selfish and wanting her own way and is throwing a tantrum because she isn't getting it. She isn't seeking advice but for someone to tell her it's OK to have opposite sex friends, not tell your spouse where you're going and show no responsibility for your spouse's unhappiness at all.

If the question were simply "Do I deserve to have friends?" then the answer is easy and it is "YES!"

But if the question is "shouldn't I be able to do whatever I want and not give a rat's behind about what he wants?" then the answer is very different.

The OP comes across as closer to the second IMO than to the first. And I wasn't the only one to think that might be the case based on early replies.

We could argue extremes all night but I think that if you asked me what I thought someone who was clearly being abused might do you would be surprised to find that I could even give phone numbers to shelters locally pretty much off the top of my head. My niece was in an abusive marriage and thought the rest of the family saw it even before the wedding it took 7 years for her to reach a point of strength and leave his sorry butt. She divorced him, married someone else and seems to be living happily ever after right now.

Let me ask you a question...

If I told an abused wife that she should do more to make her husband happy, do you think she would stand up for herself and claim she had the right to be happy whether he liked it or not?

Or would an abuse victim be more likely to say "You're probably right. I didn't think about that."

My point is that when that button was pushed , the OP responded strongly and with a strong sense of self worth. Not the reaction I would expect from an abused wife. She hasn't responded to me at all as she hasn't been here since page 1 of this thread . But SD did and to SD I responded. And it was SD's remarks that I was responding to.

Mark

GG,

We could discuss all sorts of radical extreme scenarios in regard to this. But what I stated has to do with what could simply be called the Marriage Builders Marriage. POJA, RH, these are things that are fundamental to a great marriage.

The way this is supposed to work is you put your spouse first and your spouse puts you first. You both try to make each other happy and you both understand the importance of being your spouse's favorite person to be with.

Any kind of love buster short circuits the whole thing because when my wife exhibits IB it makes me unhappy. I am unhappy because it pushes a certain button inside of me that says she doesn't care about me or my feeling. It triggers in me a fear that she is going to continue being selfish and really doesn't care about me at all and so I respond like most people who experience fear, I get angry. So now I have the dreaded AO and she withdraws further from me.

You see if I ask my wife if I can go fishing on my day off she is likely to say "Sure." She might even say "I might take the day off and go with you." But if she says "I'd rather you didn't this week and I respond by throwing a tantrum, calling her controlling and telling folks that she doesn't want me to have my own life, then the problem here is not hers, but mine.

OTOH, if every time I mention fishing she throws up because she thinks fish have rights and all that sort of thing then I probably married the wrong woman and how we originally fell in love I have no idea.

A controlling and abusive person doesn't usually become one overnight. Extreme jealousy normally shows up before the wedding. The signs are there before you want to stop for drinks with friends on the way home from work. Not always, but usually they are.

But if you think back to when you were dating and examine what things were like you will likely find that you both wanted to spend time with each other more than either of you wanted to do anything else. You prolonged dates, took the long way home, stopped just to look at the moon for one more minute...

These are things people who are in love do. It isn't because you feel controlled that you stop wanting to be together all the time but because you no longer feel in love with each other. And THAT happens because we both stop giving and start taking. Our takers begins to rule our lives and we do what we want instead of wanting to make each other happy.

Mark

Mark, you have good points, but I would venture to suggest that SD has indeed lived in an abusive situation, gauging by her/his responses. SD is responding solely from his/her perspective.

As I said, it's quite possible OP is just doing IB. Frankly, at this point, I doubt she's even around. But I've seen way too much abuse to not bring this point to light for those readers who ARE exhibiting victim behavior and are too embarrassed/ashamed to post her. I'm writing to them, just as you're writing to SD.

My FWW deveoloped what she considered a healthy IB life during the time of her A.

I would suggest to others, that IB is simply another codeword for "secret second life" that Dr H explains is necessary for an A to happen in the first place.

If the original poster of this thread is not in an A, then she is certainaily setting herself up to do so, as she does not understand the POJA.

Dr H himself, states that without the secret second life, an A is almost impossible to occur.

My W had a secret second life BEFORE she began her A. Every night out with the girls, and every business meeting was all about her. I was always, "not invited".

Guess what my W considers me to be to this day?

Controlling!!!!!!!!

I take it as a compliment, in that her and my M mean more to me than business meetings, and the like.

If it were not for the IB behavior, I do believe that my W would never have an A.

For those who advocate IB in a M, I wish you well. It certainly destroyed my heart. And to this day my W's C refers to me as controlling, in spite of the resuslts of her IB.

IMHO, IB in a marriage, leads to IB behavior, that can ultimately destroy the M.

JMHO

All Blessings,
Jerry

It's a very fine line Mark1952...
Adults Do NOT have to ask "permission" from their spouse to go for a run...nor to join a gym...IF that is such...might as well go to prison.



Sure....IF he would be agreeable to such...however..it only works in ONE direction..not both.
...yes...it is. It can also be very dangerous to do so depending on their mate.

Abuse....is such a brutal thing...and oddly enough...physical abuse...is very clear and evident...and that is what can be prosecuted...the rest leaves no visible scars. They just cut deeper.

It isn't about seeking permission; it's about showing concern for another individual that you have promised to love, honor and cherish.

When we get married, EVERYTHING we do affects our spouse. EVERYTHING causes them to feel something. If what we do causes them to feel threatened, they will become angry since anger follows fear. If what we do causes them to feel loved and makes them happy, they will feel love for us in return.

Should you have a right to join a gym? Sure.

Should you have the right to join a gym if the budget is tight, you have to hire a baby sitter or your spouse has to take care of the kids while you go off and enjoy yourself with friends from the gym every night?

Should you be able to run? Of course!

Should you be able to run any time you feel like it no matter what your spouse has planned or what his or her concerns are regarding your running partner or where you are doing your running?

Does a controlling abuser try to isolate his or her victim from friends and family in order to more fully control him or her? Absolutely!

Does that make any attempt to express my own feelings about my wife's IB abuse?

More to the point, if I express concern over my wife spending time with another man whether it is running, working out at the gym, planning programs for church or designing a new house because she is spending time doing that and excluding me from her life whether by design or by accident, is THAT abuse and an attempt to control her?

Since when two people get married they supposedly stop being two separate entities and are supposed to become one united family, where did this notion of "I have the RIGHT to do..." at the expense of my spouse come from? I see it everywhere these days.

Independent behavior without any consideration given to your spouse does not make for a strong marriage. It also leads to a private life (secret second life) that your spouse is excluded from. This in turn leads to isolation from each other.

Spending more and more time doing independent activities and less time doing things together in order to meet each others ENs causes us to slip from Intimacy into Conflict at which point the Love Busters really start and soon one or both have fallen into Withdrawal and our marriage is in serious jeopardy. At that point we no longer care whether we get anything from each other or not since we just don't care any more.

AND a secret second life that excludes our spouse is how affairs begin. While no affair is going on just because you join a gym, unless you can replace that time with your spouse meeting each others ENs then you both become vulnerable to the point that an affair becomes more likely.

You don't have to set about having an affair to have an affair. It is subtle thing sometimes. If my ENs are not being met I am already vulnerable. If someone starts meeting some EN that is not being met by my spouse then they are making LB$ deposits faster than my spouse is. Even something as seemingly minor as conversation, recreational companionship (big EN for most men) or any EN at all can rapidly cause someone's LB$ balance to exceed the romantic threshold.

If you are already in the habit of excluding your spouse from the activity that has led to this point, you are highly likely to hide the new dynamic to the relationship from him or her as well. And NOW, you begin down a slippery slope that is very hard to get off of once the decent has begun because if I am getting from someone what I desperately need and want I am very reluctant to give it up.

Even if the OP does not start an affair with her running partner if that partner is a man and one of his ENs is RC then she is making deposits into HIS LB$ and he ends up falling in love with her.

So it isn't about control, it is about protection. I can't stop my wife from having an affair, but she can. If she doesn't do what she needs to do to avoid it, it becomes a very real possibility. She has to take steps to avoid what leads to affairs in order to not end up having one.

RC is generally one of the top 3 ENs of most men. If you want a guy to fall in love with you watch the game on TV with him, go fishing with him, learn to shoot guns and buy a set of golf clubs and he'll follow you to the ends of the earth. If you don't want him to fall in love with you, then don't do those things.

This is why UA is the cornerstone of MB. Add to that the fact that IB is itself a Love Buster and the road to ruin can often begin with a night doing something innocent and fun especially if it excludes our spouse by design or default.


But each of us can only take responsibility for what is ours. We can't change someone else only ourselves.

When a BS comes here it takes a while to get them to give up the idea of controlling the WS and begin seeing that by fixing his or her half of the equation. If you fix your half you remove objections and make the marriage more attractive to the spouse. This is what Plan A is all about.

A great marriage isn't about finding the right person; it's about being the right person. If you take care of your half, your spouse is much more likely to respond in kind than if you demand changes from them while distancing yourself more and more.

And again, if abuse is the situation, then that is a completely different problem and protection becomes the primary concern.

But you can't change your spouse. You can only try to make them want to change by changing yourself into someone they are willing to give up their own selfishness for.

Mark

Or they simply choose NOT to join you...for their own reasons and turn it around on you.

1. She likes to run, he can join her on a bicycle. Chooses NOT to.
My H = same.
2. Go to the gym. [there is No one else there } always has a "reason' why he 'can't'...oh well....I go..because I NEED my workouts. Full Stop. Non-negotiable, he knew that when he met me, and BEFORE he married me. Nothing new there.

Why should she/me QUIT to appease him? Appease WHAT precisely? His inner self doubting demons? Lousy way to treat your partner.

He tosses ugly insinuations at her? Based on what? The evidence of his imagination? And she is to kow tow to him? Let him suck the Life out of her? For what? " Affair proofing"...?

Marriage should be about growth together and personal. It's a two way street. When one is cutting away at your personal growth/ improvement ...what does marriage mean? Grow only where your spouse decides it's " OK" for HIM? Since when was that part of the marriage vows?

So which came first? The chicken or the egg?

I wholeheartedly agree that the "friendship" with the coffee buddy was/is a slippery slope. She needs to cool it big time or better yet, cut it off.

But I do think there's some blame on the H's side as well. MSD should be able to spend an agreed-to amount of time with the girls or time with hobbies without getting the third degree from H.

Mel keeps talking of POJA -- the problem here, that cat has repeatedly been trying to make -- is that when you have someone who is so incredibly insecure and in need of total control, that person will NEVER agree to ANYTHING beyond having her in the same room with him.

I once dated a guy to whom I was totally devoted. He came first in my life, no other close friends - male or female. Then the red flags started waving. The first was when I attended a work function, an awards banquet, where my employer was getting some awards. He was not at all happy that I was attending. Seeing as how I was not married to him, I didn't feel he was in a position to tell me what I could or could not do, so I went. There were no flirting, no sex, nothing. Just an awards banquet and a little business networking.

The second conflict was when he was attending a work function out of town, I went out with my sister on St. Patrick's Day. I'm Irish; it's what we do. We went to a place with Irish music, drank green beer (ick), the usual St. Patrick's Day thing. Seeing as he was out of town (also at a function that involved dinner and drinks) I didn't see a big deal with this. But nooo, he expected me to sit at home for the weekend and knit or something.

There were also hints that he felt women did not belong in the working world, rather, they should be home, barefoot, pregnant, and knitting. Needless to say, I didn't want to spend my life isolated from the rest of the world, so we broke up.

Isolation. That is pretty much what MSD's H is trying to do -- isolate her from the rest of the world, including her own sister. Did you know that is one of the biggest tools emotional abusers use? Keeping their spouse in isolation?

My H occasionally goes out with work friends after the office closes, and so do I. We're both adults, we make sure the other's is okay with it, and that's why it works. But MSD can't do that with her H because his answer will ALWAYS be no. And that is NOT all her fault. His insecurities and quest for total control are a big part of this. Plenty of blame rests on him.

So yeah, she should cut off the friendship with the guy coffee buddy from work, but she should NOT have to isolate herself from the world to the degree her H wants her to. That is just not healthy. And I don't think Mel, wise as she is, can really understand what it is like to be attached to a controlling abusive person without having been in those shoes. It stinks big time.

But we don't know that he is incredibly "insecure." We only know that she is very thoughtless and is defining his objections to her cruel behavior as "controlling" and "abusive." A typical chick tactic.

What we do know is that the poster leads the life of a SINGLE woman and actively TORMENTS him. Her obnoxious behavior would naturally cause insecurity in any normal person. And if he is truly mentally ill, the answer is not to TORMENT him but to get him mental help.