6,

I applaud your efforts to keep things together for your kid’s sake. I also applaud how you’re giving your WW every opportunity to make the changes necessary in her life and recover your marriage. You have been patient and gracious with her for over 10 years. Once again, you have extended grace by giving her a chance to make the changes she needs to make. She can either accept that grace or accept the consequences.

With that being said, don’t hesitate to set the bar high in regards to your expectations of her. You’re already setting some boundaries with the girl’s nights out and the weekends away. Take some time to think about everything you will need from her to have a chance at true recovery. At some point, sit down with her and share the list with her making sure she understands that these items are non-negotiable. Among those items should be that she aggressively treat any mental illness diagnosed.

The good thing for you is that you have already resolved yourself to leaving after the children are grown. You have nothing to lose by setting the bar high. If she agrees, you may have the marriage you’ve always wanted. If she doesn’t, you’re simply back to your original plan. She needs to understand that these are the minimum requirements to stay in the marriage. She gave up her rights to negotiate when she chose to defile herself and your marriage with the OM.

Stay strong! You’re doing great.

First cut at the plan was not great, trying again tonight. Still wanted some girls nights and a weekend away here and there. I made it clear that she must make a 100% effort plan for this to work. If she wants me to put myself out there to give her this chance then she needs to also put in the effort. She is going to think about that today.

I was wondering what she came up with.
I'm a little disappointed in her but not surprised, really.

Good job on sticking to your boundaries.
They are worthless if not enforced, and priceless when they are.

Turtle,

It was terribly disappointing, we are talking again tonight. It seems like she is thinking it is just going to be too hard for her. I have not thrown anything back at her about how hard this is for the children and for me.

Psych says I can't make this plan for her that she has to make it and commit to it. I'm feeling pretty down today and I've been completely ignoring all of the A stuff again.

She may well decide it's too hard for her.
Better you find that out now, though, and it's out in the open and everyone is being honest than continuing to stuff everything under the rug. The rug can only hide so much.

On the other hand, this is a big change for her that goes hard against her natural tendencies and desires. It's not surprising that she's resisting and feeling overwhelmed. She may come through yet.

How's she doing on eating dinner with the family?

Try to enjoy the kids this weekend and take good care of yourself.

Maybe you could rent Kramer vs. Kramer and watch it with her before she makes up her mind to give her some perspective...Just sayin'...

{{{6YL}}}

I check it out in the video store, I don't really remember it. She ate with us last night for part of the meal, I had to get her when we sat down and then part way through she got up and went off to read a magazine. She said she thought the meal was over.

I would hate to tell he to ask to be excused, like a child. I'm thinking she could just wait until one of the children asks. I really enjoy dinner with the kids so I always wait until they are wanting to go do homework before it is over.

Oh brother.

I wonder what it is that she thinks she gets out of these girls
nights out anyway? Perhaps that is the question you could ask.

What does she need from a girls night out, and how can she fill that need in a way that is positive for herself, her H, and her children.

If she needs to have a conversation with another woman - perhaps a phone call would do, or a night where the girls come over to the house, go into a seperate room, and have a good girlie laugh.

I am probably the exception to the rule here, but I have never understood the whole "girls night out" thing. I have a couple of friends that I occasionally shop with, during the day. and recently my 2 friends and I went out for a cup of coffee on a Saturday morning. Is that different, I wonder?

Do the two of you have any activities togehter at this point? Is that perhaps part of the problem? She thinks that she will be stuck in the house all the time, with no outside activities???

Holy cow, that just strikes me as bizarre.

Does she talk to the kids during dinner? I think of dinnertime as the time for the entire family to connect with each other, see how each others' day went, discuss plans, etc.

Sorry if this has already been mentioned, but does she engage in conversations with you and the kids? I would think that would keep her at the dinner table - talking to the kids, and then after they are excused, talking to you. Oh, and need I mention, then clearing the table, putting the dishes in the sink or dishwasher, putting the food away, etc.

If she is supposed to start helping prepare dinner, is she also supposed to help clear the table?

WOF,

We do not have joint activities at this point. She doesn't like to do many things and I have not really had the best attitude since the A. I get the girls thing and I would be fine if it could be a lunch when the kids are in school, it would earn her points if she actually asked me to have lunch with her.

I get my guy time and other things when the kids are booked up. The time is not the real problem for me, it is the priorities. I put family first and every thing else after that. Lately it has been kids, wife, job, me time. I think she could do the same.

I'm not insisting on time with me at this point. I really doubt the M will workout without that but I've currently set the bar at time with the kids.

She is making dinner with the kid assigned to dinner. She doesn't really participate in the conversations, she says we are tight knit and it is hard for her to participate. I thought that if she sat there for a while she would get over that and just blend into the conversations.

Kids do cleanup, they are not shedding any of their chores to W at this point.

Ok, so here is a scary question.

Have you ever asked her why she wants to stay with you?

Because those of us who are over 40 need to take a look at reality - we are not going to have the kids around much longer, and one day we are going to wake up, look at our spouse, and say "who are you and what are you doing here?"

Ideally, this is the time to start building activities togehter.

I know that for you, the plan was to stay until the kids are gone, and then that was it. But what on earth is her motivation?

Does she enjoy your company - outside of the bedroom?
Why is she saying that she wants to stay married?

I'll ask but she mostly says she likes her life how it was. Almost not responsibilities, plenty of money, free time, time with friends. Plus she had a man who was good for sex and money and didn't ask for much in return. I'm paraphrasing but that is basically it, ugh looks hateful when I write it down, so I'll get her take on it.

She doesn't really participate in the conversations, she says we are tight knit and it is hard for her to participate. I thought that if she sat there for a while she would get over that and just blend into the conversations.

I wonder what it would be like for someone who had been blind, and then were given sight, to join in on a conversation about color.

Time and patience is the rule for her also. Not time measured in minutes, and hours, or even days. Time measured in months, and years.

PLEASE DON'T EXPECT TO MUCH TOO SOON.

It looks to me like you are making progress. All of the things that are happening are things that must happen for progress to occur.

Can she have six months or a year to make changes? It may take that long. Not that she needs to taper off girls night's out, that really ought to be a boundary. However, she is learning new things, and it will take time for them to feel good to her.

It will take time for all of you to make this change. This is not a small thing.

6, how are you doing now? Any change in your feelings?

SS

I know you don't really want to find a "diagnosis" to describe her behaviors, and I am not big on diagnoses either. But, has the term "attachment disorder" come up? It is usually applied to children who have been abused or neglected in infancy and early childhood. But some research has found some genetic markers for "attachment disorder" that are unrelated to abuse or neglect. Apparently, some children show signs of difficulty of attaching and they need extraordinary measures to ensure that they are able to form meaningful relationships. Your situation is so unusual, I can't help but wonder if there are not some pretty significant attachment issues going on.

It is painful to hear of a parent who is unable to sit with his or her children through a dinner. It is painful to hear of a parent who does not take advantage of the opportunity of sitting through dinner when it is handed to them.

I am already beginning to be aware that my children are growing up. One has already left for college and the youngest is in high school. I am grateful that I love my husband and want to spend time with him. But I already miss those little bodies of childhood; Those little ones that it is so easy to grab and hug, the sweet smell of their childhood I do miss.

This sounds sad to me. If she really does feel so awkward with her own family, with her very own kids... Maybe she needs help with the initial hurdle?

Sometimes when the kids aren't already bubbling over with things to say, I ask them "So, how was your day?" What happens when you try to draw her into conversation, like by asking her something like how her day went?

SS, Lake, Jayne;

She is seeing a psych about personality disorders. We do not have a diagnosis other than that she is competent and should be able to work on this. In terms of awkwardness at dinner it is not that the children are silent it is that the conversation is active and full of things she doesn't know about them. I think if she sits and listens she will catch on.

For me I need to see effort from her and some progress to keep doing this. She is still resisting the no nights out thing and I have said no way. She really wants to go see a movie on Sunday night with the girls. I have suggested that the whole family could go but she says that will put pressure on her. It is turing into a real argument with us, and I have never really said to her that if she does something then she is out but I am now. She is acting like a complete brat about it. So I have said I won't talk to her about it again but if she goes to the movie with the girls instead of family then we are done.

She actually came back with "SO you are going to divorce me over a movie with the girls." I was close to insane with anger at that point but I was able to say you know very well that is not the reason, I need to see a commitment from you NOW not later. No name calling but she is sulking now and has said that she is going to the movie.

I actually think she is going to choose the movie over her marriage. What should I do? SHould I back down? I'm super ridiculously angry and not able to think very clearly. I'm thinking that the minute she leaves, I'll send kids to another movie, pack up her stuff, change the locks and move her to her Mothers house. I can prepare the papers today and just leave them with her stuff. Since the postnup is in place it would be pretty simple to do from a legal point of view.

First don't bluff!!!

Second the laws in most states don't allow for changes locks and kicking out the spouse...as much as we would like. She could call the police and get put back in.

Third...Post-nups tend to get thrown out by the Judge...ecpecially if its not fair even if they sign it.

Fourth..If she is willing to chose the GF's over the marriage then there isn't much of a chance to recover.

Just my two cents!!!

You are probably right about changing the locks. I think the postnup is binding, she had her own council and the lawyer who drew it up is quite good. Also in terms of custody the children are old enough to have a say and I know what they will say.

I am angry right now and in fight mode, but if she ever hopes to have any relationship with the kids it would not be wise to fight me at this point. That being said I don't want her homeless and would be willing to offer her some money so she could get on her feet. Is that stupid? I feel like she is pushing me off a cliff here.