The best advice to give you is that you need to be strong. Too many BH's here are very weak and fear paralyzes them. I understand that fear because it paralyzed me too.

What did fear get me?

Divorced, separated from my kids, and with a loss of all my things.

Why? Because I agreed to a divorce I didn't want (as you are about to do).

Because she had a lawyer who drafted up an agreement (lopsided completely in her favor) and I signed it.

Because I fooled myself with false hope that this was just a temporary thing.

It isn't temporary. Divorce is permanent.

The things she is saying to you are typical. We've all heard those words.

The men who become strong and let the WW realize that not only will divorce not be amicable but that they could very well lose everything and that the men are willing to fight are the ones who do well.

The ones who don't, like me, end up losing everything.

You're being GREAT advice by Chrisner. Yes, he is divorced, but he walked away in very good shape because he wasn't a doormat.

You see, you may indeed get divorced and not be able to save your marriage, but you can still fight for your marriage even if the divorce process starts. Just don't engage in divorce half as$ed because it will bite you in the butt.

Another great example is Mortarman. His wayward wife didn't wake up until she saw how much she was hurting her kids and how she wasn't going to win everything the way she pictured she would. Reality collided with fantasy and he was strong and fought hard for his kids. She woke up and came back to the marriage and they now have a new baby.

He had a great visitation schedule given to him and one which she didn't like and she really saw that the fantasy she created in her head of what divorce would be like was simply not a reality.

It is very common for women to fool themselves into believing that they will be friends with you and get along great. That's not the case about 99% of the time.

You have a business like relationship at best and very, very rarely do you have a couple that is friends with one another. Very rarely and it usually takes years to get to that point.

My parents are friends now, but it took a looooooong time for them to connect as friends and they knew each other since childhood.

DO NOT agree to a divorce you don't want but if she does put in the papers for one then you need to go all out and he77 bent for leather to get everything.

In the meantime you need to do a few things:

Cut off all finances with her.
Cancel all credit cards and cell phone plans.
Separate her financially.
DO NOT move out of your home.
Document, document, document.
Get proof of the affair to use against her in court.
Document how she prioritizes the affair over her kids.

It's very simple, really. Give her exactly what she wants (except the divorce).

She wants independence? Then by all means. Pay your own bills, cell phone, insurance, etc.

If she returns to the marriage then you can support her as a wife and share the expenses with her. Otherwise she can be on her own.

The biggest advice you can get is to be a man, control your emotions and DO NOT be a doormat.

We're encouraging you here, not bashing you. We're in your corner!

IDWAD,

Mark is right on about me....(Thanks for the kudo's Mark,,,though I will say I had some FINE teachers and mentor's... ;)).


I only had a few pieces, which WS spun into a GRAND OL' STORY that turned out to be NO WHERE CLOSE to the truth. And I HATED snooping. Heck, I still hate it. I whined and fought over having to snoop. BUT....without it, well, WS would not be home and still living in "Affairland".

Anyway, the very best thing you can do in like Pmd, Chris, Mel, Mark, and everyone has been telling ya. That and keeping up on here and reaching out when you need to. I was here everyday multiple times. I ranted, raved, cried, and died many days on this site. It got me through it. People here supported me when needed, made me laugh when needed, and they even kicked my butt...when needed (and man oh man there where times when I needed it....still do....).....

not2fun

IDWAD,

As you have been married for 10 years I am assuming that the 17 year old son is from a prior marriage?

How did that marriage end? How did you and your WW meet?

she wasn't married before. we met through a mutual friend.

i discovered an email address today so she can still communitcat with POS OM. I'm trying to follow your all's advice and i'm really confused by this all. i don't believe anything she's telling me and from her actions it appears the marriage is over. i'm ready to file on my own. she's been wanting to pay down our debts and had wanted to file together using one attorny but i'm to the place that i've had it. i don't quite know what to do at this point. i've been trying to fill her love bank but it doesn't appear she's receptive at all. please advise.

Let me take a shot:

1. Plan A your butt off with No expectations of her reactions.

2. Expose the adultery to everyone who can help and re-contact OM's BW.

3. Take steps to protect your finances.



So the 17 year old son is yours from a prior marriage. What were the circumstances that ended that marriage?

You've only been at this a small amount of time. Winning your wife back will take patience. It took a long time for your marriage to hit the skids, you are not going to recover it at lightening speed.

You've been getting great advice on this thread please listen to it.

You do not have to make a decision on this so quickly. Be still. Don't act on emotion.

Can someone who is an expert in Plan A give him some tips?

no the 17 year old his her son from a relationship gone wrong.

i'm working on plan a but as i said nothing is effecting her at the moment in regards to that i've expose to everyone i know and to my knoweldge no one is contacting her about it.

IDWAD,

It's not going to affect her at this point. Try thinking of her as a drunk or as being abducted by aliens. She is not the person you married or the person you know. She is not going to noticed OR if she does it will be met with hate and hostility ("too little, too late" or "why didn't you do this stuff before"....you WILL hear these phrases or variations of the sort.....they are CLASSIC WAYWARD BABBLE....).

This is because she is at war with her conscience right now....BECAUSE the more you change into the more she is hit with the fact that what she is doing is wrong.....

If you don't believe me, read up on some of the older threads on here. You will see that your situation is not "unique" or unusual, that your situation will mimick and be similiar to others.

My old thread are in my siggy line...the second link is the first thread I had from the VERY first post I ever made on here, so start there....

I will go look for TMTS thread and link that one for you. That's another one who did the MB stuff and is in recovery.....

And like I said before....you will get angry, frusterated, and upset. This is not for the faint of heart....and when it gets that way you come here and we will help you.....

not2fun

IDWAD,

I want you to take the time to read something. You might find it emotionally draining. I know when I have gone back and reread it it was so for me.

The following links are to three threads from a poster named Toomuchtoosoon (aka: TMTS)When he began here he was trying to "convince" his wife to stop an affair with a guy while she planned on moving out of the house.

Part One:The Beginning

Part Two:Looking for a PLAN

Part Three:Executing the PLAN

You need a PLAN...

Then EXECUTE it...

Come back and ask questions.

Notice how the same advice was given over and over again at first. TMTS was lost, afraid and paralyzed when he began. The advice was to expose the affair, discover her ENs and meet them as much as she allowed and identify his own Love Busters and do away with them.

And most importantly was the advice to do these things no matter what she said or did.

Do NOT react to what she says, IDWAD.

Meet her ENs.
Stop Love Busters.
Have NO expectations.

Just KNOW that if you do the first two, your marriage CAN be saved.

The third is because it will be having expectations that don't get met that will steal your hope and your strength of will to continue with the first two. It will be expecting her to fall at your feet and beg forgiveness that will kill your hope. It will be your expectation that she will understand all of this logically that will stop you in your tracks. It will be your expectaion that she will act rationally that will cause you to want to give up.

None of those things are going to happen right away and may never happen as you envision them happening.

You have two jobs to do to save your marriage:

1)Meet her ENs
2) Stop all Love Busters

To continue in the face of her not reacting the way you envisioned it you must do one more thing.

3)Have NO expectations.

As simple as 1, 2, 3...

Far from easy...

In order to have a marriage that can survive this and become a marriage that this can't happen to again you must fix the problems in the marriage.

In order to fix it you must save it first!

To save it do 1, 2 and 3.

If you fail in any of those you will not get to fix it because there will be nothing left to fix unless you save it.

Save it first.

Fix it after it is saved.

If you try to do it the other way around or in reverse order you will do neither.

Mark

That's what I was trying to say....

Mark you GOT IT....(but then I always knew you "had" it....)

IDWAD,

Mark gave you the SAME plan TMTS had and that I had as well. It's all very very simple....just follow those 3 things.....it really does work......

If you do it any other way, its like fixing a hang nail while the patient is having a heart attack......doesn't work...

You have the best on here helping you....if that is what you want....

not2fun

ps...Mark gave you the links I was telling you about....thanks Mark

Not, If you ever need them again they are on page 9 of my Musings thread...

/tj

Mark

IDWAD,

One thing you need to keep in mind is that you have no control over your WW...None...Zilch...

The only person you have control over is you. The only one you can change is you. The only one you can fix is you.

Control YOU.
Change YOU.
Fix YOU.

Make yourself BETTER than OM.
Make yourself better at meeting her ENs than OM.
Make her feel safer with you than with OM.
Make yourself more attractive to her than OM.
Make her time with you more enjoyable than with OM.

If all you do is argue with her about OM, then guess what...

You aren't even close to those objectives.

I'm not saying you just accept it or that you tolerate her rubbing the affair in your face. You don't ever have to accept the affair.

I tried to educate my wife into doing what was right...

All it did was drive her further away.

Be her pillar of strength.
Be her lighthouse.
Be her hero.

Mark

Mark,

I'm trying to do what you say but the affair is still going on. My son's birthday is coming up soon and i have a major business event that my WW is attending with me because it's important to my business and i've been thinking it might be a good time to add to the LB because it's a very prestigous event and we've always had a major time together at it. i'm still very confused by the fact the affair is happening and am so close to filing it's scary because she has told me it would be a nightmare to have to spend the rest of her life with me. I'm still working Plan A and i realize it's only been a short time. i have exposed to everyone i know and it doesn't seem to have any effect on her. i know i'm due a good whacking from you all and totally expect it. I'm still awaiting my copy of SAA but it hasn't arrived. I went and read the threads you directed me to and found them informative but there were several things that i could not figure out what they meant and you please tell me what the following items mean.

IMO
DJing
NC
AP
AO
FWIW, I can't even get my wife to finish reading FIL/SIL.
MIM
BS
JMO
DDs

i look forward to your advice.

Most Common MB Acronyms (Alphabetically):

BS = Betrayed Spouse
D-Day = Discovery Day
DH = Divorced Husband or Darling Husband
DJ = Disrespectful Judgement
DV-Day = Divorce Day
DW = Divorced Wife or Dear Wife
EA = Emotional Affair
EN = Emotional Needs
FWH = Former Wayward Husband
FWW = Former Wayward Wife
FOO = Family of Origin
FS = Faithful Spouse ("betrayed")
G&T = "Give & Take: The Secret to Marital Compatibility"
H = Husband
HNHN = "His Needs, Her Needs"
LB = Love Bust(er)
MB = Marriage Builders
MLC = Mid-life Crisis
OC = Other Child (S's and OP's)
OM = Other Man
OMW = Other Man's Wife
OP = Other Person
OPS = Other Persons's Spouse
OW = Other Woman
OWH = Other Woman's Husband
PA = Physical Affair
POJA = The Policy of Joint Agreement
S = Spouse
SAA = "Surviving An Affair"
SAHD = Stay At Home Dad
SAHM = Stay At Home Mom
SF = Sexual Fulfillment
SO = Significant Other
W = Wife
WAW = Walk Away Wife
WH = Wayward Husband
WW = Wayward Wife
WS = Wayward Spouse ("betrayer")

Relationship Acronyms:
BF = Biological Father/Boyfriend
BIL = Brother In Law
BM = Biological Mother
DD = Darling Daughter
DS = Darling Son
FIL = Father In Law
GF = Girlfriend
GP = Grand Parent(s)
MIL = Mother In Law
SD = Step Daughter
SF = Step Father
SIL = Sister In Law
SM = Step Mother
SS = Step Son
STBX = Soon To Be Ex

MB specific Acronyms (CB MB forum members)
CB = Coined By
P.U.S.H. = Pray Until Something Happens (CB… NSR... see Inspire (20))
PTC = Patience, Time and Consistency (CB… NSR... for Plan A to work!)
TDNT = That Do Nothing Thing (CB… NSR/RMA)

Generally accepted Acronyms:
BTW = By The Way
FWIW = For What It's Worth.
IMHO = In My Humble Opinion
IMO = In My Opinion
IMVHO = In My Very Humble Opinion
KWIM = Know What I Mean?
LMAO - Laughing My *Rump* Off
LOL = Laughing Out Loud
ROTFLMAO = Rolling On The Floor Laughing My *Rump* Off
EOM = End Of Message

Divorce/Custody Acronyms:
CP = Custodial Parent
CPS = Child Protective Services
CS = Child Support
CSE = Child Support Enforcement
DCW = Dept. of Child Welfare
FOC = Friend Of the Court
GAL = Guardian Ad Litem
MSOL = Marital Standard Of Living
NCP = Non Custodial Parent
PAS = Parental Alienation Syndrome


IDWAD,

If the adultery is still going on she will show no signs that your Plan A is working. But they do see your actions. They really do. A good Plan A gnaws and gnaws at their justifications about what a terrible husband you have become.


This sounds like a very good Plan A opportunity.


Very specifically, who have you exposed to?

Does she have parents? What did they say about what their daughter is planning to do to their grandchildren?

Have you called POSOM's betrayed wife back? She is the one who may be able to help. OM must start feeling consequences of his actions. This is the most important call to help end the adultery. This is not confusing.

I bet she thinks the adultery ended back in August when she called you. Call her now.

Thank you my friend

IMO In My Opinion
DJing DJ is Disrespectful Judgment DJing is the act of making one. A DJ is a Love Buster (LB)
NC No Contact
AP Affair Partner
AO Angry Outburst (Another Love Buster)
FWIW, I can't even get my wife to finish reading FIL/SIL.

FWIW means For What It's Worth

FIL/SIL is one of Dr Harley's Books; Fall In Love/Stay In Love

MIM Without context I have NO idea. :RollieEyes: Though there is a poster here that goes by that.
BS Betrayed Spouse
JMO Just My Opinion
DDs DDs would be plural of DD (Dear Daughter)



Most of them get picked up in context and those that don't you learn soon enough.

Like Chrisner just told you, while the affair is going on your Plan A activities, which need to be all about you BTW (By The Way in case you don't know) will not be acknowledged by your wife. To admit that you are a great guy means she is acting like a total idiot, even in her foggy mind.

To admit that you aren't such a bad guy removes most of her justification for having the affair. So she can't do that either.

So YOU:

Meet her ENs
Avoid LBs

And have no expectations.

Remember that it is your expectation of her reacting a certain way and then not reacting like you anticipated that causes you to doubt what you are doing.

Dr Harley explains that the feeling of "love" is a response to stimulus just like Pavlov's dogs salivated at the sound of the bell even when there was no food presented.

The way you elicit this response is by making deposits into her Love Bank (LB$). You make deposits by meeting her ENs.

But you can make huge withdrawals by acting in a way that takes a heavy toll on your balance in her LB$. These are the Love Busters. They include Independent Behavior (acting in any way that does not take her and her feelings into account), Disrespectful Judgments, Angry Outbursts, Annoying Habits, Dishonesty (lying), and Selfish Demands.

When you are meeting her ENs she enjoys her time with you and looks forward to being with you. Beyond a certain point called the Romantic Threshold, she begins to feel "love" toward you because she is happy when she is with you and if it happens often enough she feels happy just because she is with you.

But if you are committing Love Busters, then you not only are not making it enjoyable for her to be with you, but in fact making her unhappy whenever she is with you and therefor eventually your mere presence makes her unhappy.

So you need to meet her ENs...
Avoid Love Busters...

And not expect her to suddenly fall at your feet and beg forgiveness or even to acknowledge your efforts. Have NO expectations.

Weigh what she says to see if it holds any truth. You can use this to determine her ENs and your LBs.

She says "You're never here when I need you." She is probably saying that that you engage in too many independent activities or work too many hours etc. Working twelve hour days and then hanging out with your buds till the wee hours of the morning is a good way to end up with an unhappy wife. Independent Behavior...

She says "You're always criticizing me." She probably means that you tend toward trying to fix everything for her like most guys tend to do. You most likely hear her say something and immediately try to figure out what is wrong, find a solution and try to get HER to implement YOUR solution to HER problem. Disrespectful Judgments come into play on this one.

She says "You never listen to me." She is telling you that one of her most important ENs is Conversation. She doesn't always need you to FIX IT; she just wants you to listen to her and commiserate.

But you can identify those things by examining yourself and your own actions. You know when you make mistakes but like most of us just let them go unless called on them.

What you have to separate from the usable information you can glean from her ranting is the fact that 99% or so of what she says is garbage. Around here we call it fog-babble. A WS acts as if he or she been abducted by aliens. They are not the same person you knew before the affair. They lie, cheat, steal, act in a totally selfish manner and have no consideration for anyone or anything other than him or herself. They are in fact addicted to the feelings involved in the affair and all that matters is their next fix, which comes from the affair partner.

The fog-babble can be ignored and should be. You need to have a plan and execute that plan no matter what she says. In my Musings thread linked in my sig line, on about page 4 or 5 is a link to Orchid's Reverse Babble thread. Learn to use reverse babble.

For example, she says, "I'm sick of living like this." You say "Me too. What would you like for dinner?"

She says, "I'm not happy." You say, "me too. I'm going to Walmart. Do you need anything?"

She says, "I want a divorce." You say, "I don't talk divorce, only marriage." Or if she says it again, say "OK" and let it drop. Don't tell her to file. Don't tell her you will file. Don't agree to a divorce in any way, unless YOU want a divorce.

If she is "typical" her top ENs are Conversation, Honesty, Affection (not the same as SEX, BTW) and Financial Support and Family Commitment. Learn to meet those ENs and do so daily if possible.

Read some more stuff on here until you get SAA. Articles, Q&A columns about infidelity, reread the basic concepts. Read a few other threads. Be sure you have read the top few threads in the Just Found Out forum. Some of those links in my [Musings] thread might help as well.

Your enemy is NOT your wife. your enemy isn't even necessarily the OM. The ENEMY is the AFFAIR.

Come here to vent and rant. Keep everything with her positive. Especially when she tries to get you to trigger and fly off the handle you need to be calm and cool as a cucumber. Don't let her bait you into letting your anger out. It just further justifies her affair in her own mind.

But you don't have to be a wimp either. Step up and be da man...

Just don't expect her to notice right away.

Think of Plan A like this...

What attracted her to you when you first met? What kinds of things did you do? How did you act toward her and around her. That is the guy she fell in love with all those years ago. That is the guy you need to become once more.

I'll be back when I can get here but other folks can be a big help as well. Don't miss the single lines of advice folks will drop your way. Process each one and figure out how to apply them. If you can't figure it out, ask!

I can't promise that if you do everything right you will save your marriage. I can promise you that if you don't do anything you have no chance of saving your marriage. You don't have to be perfect, but you do have follow a plan.

If you can afford it, call the coaching center for a phone appointment with Steve or Jennifer. It will be the best investment you ever made.

Mark

My ears were burning.....

It's a tough read but from what I've read you are reacting in the exact same way Not2 and I did.

Don't get me wrong, this was not easy and I made mistakes along the way, so don't get too down on yourself if you do mess up...it will happen.

The people who are helpping you are some of the best, and I attribute our recovery to the help I got from them and the Harley's.

IDWAD,

First off, go to your local bookstore and just BUY SAA. It is very crucial for you to understand what we are saying. It will pull all of this together for you. I know you are waiting for your copy, but honestly, you don't have time. It will be well worth the ivestment.

Mark, Chris, and everyone is right. Plan A will not go over well with her. You cannot expect that. And if you do happen to do something and she DOES notice, well, that will only give you the push to continue. If anything, she will be totally PO'D by your changes. "Too little, too late" is what you will hear (to which you reply, "yes, you are right and I am sorry for that..." BECAUSE you are responsible for the condition your marriage was in Pre A....)

You see in Plan A you will FEEL like a doormat. That does not mean you ARE a doormat only that you will feel like one (there is a thread on this some where....I will try to bump it for you...).


Now birthday and work party.....PERFECT PLAN A OPPERTUNITY.....you cannot let this slip by you. When are these things supposed to happen???? Let us know, we can help you plan.....


Oh, as far as her "it would be a nightmare to spend the rest of my life with you" comment....TYPICAL WW fogspeak. We all heard it or versions of it. Try not to take it personally (this is WAY easier said than done....)

oh, and follow Chris's advice....CAll his wife....she would be a great asset and ally for you in this fight. I WISH I would have been clued in a little sooner as to letting COW's H know in my sitch (COW....stands for....C use your imagination; O is other; W is woman.....).

not2fun

ps...T/J...TMTS....thought you could get by without a

my son's birthday is sunday but and i'll be home but his party is saturday and i have a business confernce going on but am going to attend his party. the big business event i'm talking about it on Oct. the 13th and i got my copy of SAA and am reading it. I unfortunately had an outburst at her this morning and will call her to apologize for that. I'm doing the best i can given the circumstances and i'm really trying to follow your all's advice. please help me out i need it. i look forward to your comments. love and peace to you all.

You have been asked many questions. Some of them multiple times. You keep avoiding us. We could offer more knowledgeable input if you would answer these questions and give a clear status of the adultery, what exactly you are doing and probably more likely, what you are not doing.