ML, agreed. As I said, she needs to grow up and stop her IB behavior.

Ludicrous!

Perhaps HER EN's require that she be allowed to BREATHE and enjoy her runs? Not to do so is a MAJOR LB!

That is HIS head game!!! Not hers to own.
She never said it was NONE of his business...he KNEW it was her sister!
If marriage CHOKES the LIFE out of you???

THAT is NOT marriage! Sorry...can't sell me that one. He essentially can cut off ALL her avenues to pursue ANY interests....what the heck kind of life/marriage is that?

I run EVERYDAY and train, Loooong before I ever met my H. You suppose I MUST give that up as well? To make him "happy'....have given up pretty darn much everything else! Where do you suppose it ends? Does she give up her job as well to appease him>? NO...because HE benefits from the income as well.

Whatever HE is benefiting from directly will get his 'stamp of approval'...anything for herself...he can call it an "LB"....control/ manipulation.

He is Isolating her from her family for heaven's sakes. Her own Sister! Where is the LOGIC in that?

I am ALL for interdependence ...but NOT when it chokes my desire to Live. Not worth it...no one and Nothing is.

Affair proofing a marriage is a farce of an excuse.

POJA.

Perhaps you should read up on it since you are here anyway.

How about you stick to the bar room brawls and we'll deal with marriages?

SoulDragon,

I think you misunderstood what I said.

I did not say that a person who is married can have no hobbies, activities that do not include the spouse or even time to simply get away from life all alone and reflect in order to regroup and refresh for the days ahead.

All of that is not only "permissible' but also necessary.

My point was and still is that if your spouse is not in agreement then you should not do anything that causes them discomfort. It isn't about giving them control but about giving them care and concern. It is about making their happiness as important as your own.

You see if you feel that you have the right to be happy at the expense of your spouse's happiness, you aren't exhibiting love for your spouse.

If you don't care if your spouse is unhappy, you don't love your spouse. Love means you care.

While you might want to try to make running an EN, the issue here isn't running. Being asked to account for time isn't a love buster, but Independent Behavior is one for sure.

That is the distinction I wanted to make.

In order for a marriage to work out for the long term both husband and wife must be buyers rather than renters.

Since you haven't been around as long as some who will understand that statement I will explain.

A Buyer is in for the long haul. They OWN the relationship and have made the relationship the focal point of their life. Buyers do whatever it takes to maintain the relationship because it is theirs.

Renters only give in as far as they get in return. A renter doesn't care if the other person is getting what they need because they are only in the relationship as long as it pays off for them. When the payoff stops, they are done. They are only willing to put in what has to be given in order to get what they want for themselves.

A freeloader just wants to "get" all the time and doesn't care whether there is a relationship at all or not. For a freeloader, all that matters is getting. They only stick around until they get a better offer.

An attitude of selfentitlement to do whatever makes me happy at my spouse's expense is that of at best, a renter rather than a buyer. It shows a lack of ownership of the relationship because if you care about the relationship showing care for the spouse is showing care for yourself.

Mark

Mark, you make perfect sense for a normal marriage, with normal people. I think the issue at hand is whether the spouse is indeed abusive. Because if he IS abusive, then this:
is a recipe for disaster. He will NEVER agree to ANYTHING his spouse wants to do away from him. And it won't be because he wants to be with her or loves her. It will be because he knows that 'allowing' her access to the outside world gives her confidence and knowledge that may enable her to leave his sorry self.

I think the major disagreement here is that some people feel the OP's spouse is abusive and some people feel he isn't. As I said, only those two know the truth.

If she's just being selfish and wants to do a bunch of IB, he has every right to be upset with her. If, however, he's hounding her every step and insisting that she do NOTHING outside of being with him, then she needs to either leave (he'll never change) or set boundaries and live with them.

My point was and still is that if your spouse is not in agreement then you should not do anything that causes them discomfort.

But then Mark, I have to ask YOU, what do you do IF the person you married has a problem with jealousy thats OUT OF HAND. Now, maybe to SOME people ANY jealousy is OK, but I really think unbridled JEALOUSY is NOT OK with MOST.

I mean, you go to grad school, your teacher is a world renowned EXPERT at what you are studying, you mention that and BINGO!!!!! your MB partner decides that you are paying WAY to much admiration to this guy so HE or SHE tells you that "because I feel UNCOMFORTABLE with this, you have to drop out>...;..: You know what: Get a LIFE. I married you to ADD to MY life, not to harness it in to storyline that ONLY YOU are the author.

Now , I am in full understanding that NOT ALL PERSONAL interests are OK *( the IB clause) but NEITHER is ANY IB being OK. And I HIGHLY doubt that Dr. Hartley would consider a ONCE A YEAR outing with the boys a bad move simply because ONE spouse can't handle it. If he does, well, maybe this ain't for MOST people. I want to be with my wife 99.9999999999999% of the time, the ONCE every 5 years I want to do something WITHOUT her, if she bums out....THATS on her. AND ANY NORMAL RED BLOODED AMERICAN MALE would agree. And I am REPEATING that. Marriage SHOULD NOT BE a jail sentance, and if YOU think it is......THATS FINE. But not EVERYONE takes that position.

Jealosy SUCKS. Let me spell it out. It SUCKS. And while you have a right to buckle down to a spouse who is UNREASONABLE jealous, fine, thats you. But it ain't everyone. And to hint that someone is a IRRESPONSIBLE spouse because they have AN (as in one or two) interests THAT ARE NOT excuses to set up sexual relationships is just STUPID.

And I know Dr. hartley is a pro with 30 years of experience. So I really think some of his positions are being skewed here. If I'm wrong, let him come and tell me. I think he's being misrepresented here.

Jealousy SUCKS. I can't put it ANY more clearly. Its like SALT. A little goes a long way, TOO MUCH, and you ruin E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G. And this is coming from a RIGHT OFF THE BOAT Italian male who KNOWS, first hand, what being married to a jeolous spouse REALLY MEANS. How, after a while, WAKING UP is a reason for the other spouse to be jealous. Think I'm wrong? Ask how many women have had their azzes BEAT because a telemarketer called and they spent just a little too much time talking to them. Don't think it happens? I did an internship at a womans shelter. It happens. And it happens cause someone thinks it really bad that their spouse isn't 100% attached at the hip 100% of the time.

It sucks. PERIOD.

gabapool, just as in this case, his jealousy comes from her poor boundaries and her practice of TORMENTING him. That has been my experience with most of these cases on this board. This man is not insanely jealous; she is actively tormenting him and has for years. When he objects, she attacks him as "abusive" and "insanely jealous." So very typical of those who practice independent, thoughtless behavior.

[I used to accuse my H of being "controlling," that is the favorite refrain of WOMEN who don't want to be held accountable for their thoughtless behavior]

If anyone has been abused, it is HIM. The answer to a spouse who is jealous is to STOP DOING THINGS THAT MAKE THEM JEALOUS. That isn't hard to figure out. But she is not willing to do that.

If he truly is "insane" ask yourself what kind of a person would torment a mentally ill man? That is beyond comprehension.

As for people who are truly mentally ill, my suggestion would be to get mental help. And to hope that you don't have a spouse who enjoys TORMENTING mentally ill people. Can you imagine being married to someone who truly IS mentally ill and going out of your way to TORMENT THEM? I really can't.

If my spouse were "jealous" I would stop doing things that made them feel that way. If he were mentally ill, I would get him psychological help. But I WOULD NOT torment him.

gabapool, you are missing the point. If your wife disrespects your wishes and does something she knows makes you unhappy, then pretty soon you will FALL OUT OF LOVE with her. If you want your spouse to fall in love and stay with love you, then you must NOT be the source of her unhappiness. That means not lovebusting and meeting her emotional needs.


That is RIGHT. Having romantic love in a marriage is NOT for most people because they are not willing to do waht it takes to protect their love. This is why most couples fall out of love after marriage. They STOP doing the things in marriage that caused them to fall in love while dating.

Going away for a weekend when you KNOW your spouse objects is the kind of thing that causes emotional withdrawal. It is much, much more damaging than just saying "I want to be with my wife 99.999% of the time." She won't want to be with YOU if you disrespect her and cause her to withdraw from you. That is the kind of behavior that causes deep resentment.

But, adults can do whatever they want. You can do whenever you want, when you want. You are free to go! But if you want your wife to be in love with you, then don't disrespect her with lovebusting behaviors.

I would not DREAM of going on a weekend outing with the girls if my H objected because it would make him UNHAPPY. I DON'T WANT MY HUSBAND TO BE UNHAPPY. I DON'T WANT TO BE THE SOURCE OF MY H'S UNHAPPINESS. Honestly, I cannot imagine being so disrespectful to him and vice versa. I CHERISH the passionate love we have in our marriage and would never do anything to ruin that. Independent behavior is a SURE FIRE way to quickly destroy romantic love.

And why do I protect the romantic love in my marriage so vigorously? Because it has dramatically changed the QUALITY of my life. The quality of my marriage has changed the quality of my life...for the better. I am not willing to give that up, AND NEITHER IS MY HUSBAND.

Cat,

I understand what you are saying. But the part you quoted above is intended to work both ways.

If your spouse is abusive, you need to change the dynamic somehow and usually that is by leaving until he (or she) gets real help and shows that he (or she) has changed those behaviors.

My post above was not intended to be a reply as to what I advise the OP, who has not been around in a few days, but was intended as a response to SD. It was SD's statements that I was addressing not suggesting that anyone should really remain in an abusive relationship.

If a marriage is broken in any way it needs to be either fixed or abandoned. This applies to abuse, infidelity that continues long after it is exposed, drinking, drug addiction...Even if divorce is not sought it might be advisable to separate and in the case of abuse I think it is very necessary for protection of the abused spouse.

But SD was arguing about the right to have the freedom to do things without your spouse and even hinted that it can be without his or her agreement. That is what I was referring to, not the cases where one spouse controls, isolates and abuses the other.

If the OP fears for her life, she did not come across that way. She did not say that her husband has isolated her from her friends and family. She did say that he doesn't like it when she spends time with her friends and hinted it applies to family as well.

Either she is soft pedaling the whole thing here or part of the problem really is her IB that makes him have AOs and that dynamic can be changed unilaterally by the OP.

If she had said that when she gets home from visiting friends he is drunk, makes crude remarks, threatens her in any way or any of the other typical abuser actions I would have said that she should find a shelter and get out before it's too late.

I also want to point out that she exhibits none of the typical abused wife justification of the abuser characteristics that are most common in abuse cases. She does not consider herself a victim of abuse, does not try to justify his abuse of her and doesn't seem at all timid in going after what she wants.

She comes across to me as being selfish and wanting her own way and is throwing a tantrum because she isn't getting it. She isn't seeking advice but for someone to tell her it's OK to have opposite sex friends, not tell your spouse where you're going and show no responsibility for your spouse's unhappiness at all.

If the question were simply "Do I deserve to have friends?" then the answer is easy and it is "YES!"

But if the question is "shouldn't I be able to do whatever I want and not give a rat's behind about what he wants?" then the answer is very different.

The OP comes across as closer to the second IMO than to the first. And I wasn't the only one to think that might be the case based on early replies.

We could argue extremes all night but I think that if you asked me what I thought someone who was clearly being abused might do you would be surprised to find that I could even give phone numbers to shelters locally pretty much off the top of my head. My niece was in an abusive marriage and thought the rest of the family saw it even before the wedding it took 7 years for her to reach a point of strength and leave his sorry butt. She divorced him, married someone else and seems to be living happily ever after right now.

Let me ask you a question...

If I told an abused wife that she should do more to make her husband happy, do you think she would stand up for herself and claim she had the right to be happy whether he liked it or not?

Or would an abuse victim be more likely to say "You're probably right. I didn't think about that."

My point is that when that button was pushed , the OP responded strongly and with a strong sense of self worth. Not the reaction I would expect from an abused wife. She hasn't responded to me at all as she hasn't been here since page 1 of this thread . But SD did and to SD I responded. And it was SD's remarks that I was responding to.

Mark

GG,

We could discuss all sorts of radical extreme scenarios in regard to this. But what I stated has to do with what could simply be called the Marriage Builders Marriage. POJA, RH, these are things that are fundamental to a great marriage.

The way this is supposed to work is you put your spouse first and your spouse puts you first. You both try to make each other happy and you both understand the importance of being your spouse's favorite person to be with.

Any kind of love buster short circuits the whole thing because when my wife exhibits IB it makes me unhappy. I am unhappy because it pushes a certain button inside of me that says she doesn't care about me or my feeling. It triggers in me a fear that she is going to continue being selfish and really doesn't care about me at all and so I respond like most people who experience fear, I get angry. So now I have the dreaded AO and she withdraws further from me.

You see if I ask my wife if I can go fishing on my day off she is likely to say "Sure." She might even say "I might take the day off and go with you." But if she says "I'd rather you didn't this week and I respond by throwing a tantrum, calling her controlling and telling folks that she doesn't want me to have my own life, then the problem here is not hers, but mine.

OTOH, if every time I mention fishing she throws up because she thinks fish have rights and all that sort of thing then I probably married the wrong woman and how we originally fell in love I have no idea.

A controlling and abusive person doesn't usually become one overnight. Extreme jealousy normally shows up before the wedding. The signs are there before you want to stop for drinks with friends on the way home from work. Not always, but usually they are.

But if you think back to when you were dating and examine what things were like you will likely find that you both wanted to spend time with each other more than either of you wanted to do anything else. You prolonged dates, took the long way home, stopped just to look at the moon for one more minute...

These are things people who are in love do. It isn't because you feel controlled that you stop wanting to be together all the time but because you no longer feel in love with each other. And THAT happens because we both stop giving and start taking. Our takers begins to rule our lives and we do what we want instead of wanting to make each other happy.

Mark

Mark, you have good points, but I would venture to suggest that SD has indeed lived in an abusive situation, gauging by her/his responses. SD is responding solely from his/her perspective.

As I said, it's quite possible OP is just doing IB. Frankly, at this point, I doubt she's even around. But I've seen way too much abuse to not bring this point to light for those readers who ARE exhibiting victim behavior and are too embarrassed/ashamed to post her. I'm writing to them, just as you're writing to SD.

My FWW deveoloped what she considered a healthy IB life during the time of her A.

I would suggest to others, that IB is simply another codeword for "secret second life" that Dr H explains is necessary for an A to happen in the first place.

If the original poster of this thread is not in an A, then she is certainaily setting herself up to do so, as she does not understand the POJA.

Dr H himself, states that without the secret second life, an A is almost impossible to occur.

My W had a secret second life BEFORE she began her A. Every night out with the girls, and every business meeting was all about her. I was always, "not invited".

Guess what my W considers me to be to this day?

Controlling!!!!!!!!

I take it as a compliment, in that her and my M mean more to me than business meetings, and the like.

If it were not for the IB behavior, I do believe that my W would never have an A.

For those who advocate IB in a M, I wish you well. It certainly destroyed my heart. And to this day my W's C refers to me as controlling, in spite of the resuslts of her IB.

IMHO, IB in a marriage, leads to IB behavior, that can ultimately destroy the M.

JMHO

All Blessings,
Jerry

It's a very fine line Mark1952...
Adults Do NOT have to ask "permission" from their spouse to go for a run...nor to join a gym...IF that is such...might as well go to prison.



Sure....IF he would be agreeable to such...however..it only works in ONE direction..not both.
...yes...it is. It can also be very dangerous to do so depending on their mate.

Abuse....is such a brutal thing...and oddly enough...physical abuse...is very clear and evident...and that is what can be prosecuted...the rest leaves no visible scars. They just cut deeper.

It isn't about seeking permission; it's about showing concern for another individual that you have promised to love, honor and cherish.

When we get married, EVERYTHING we do affects our spouse. EVERYTHING causes them to feel something. If what we do causes them to feel threatened, they will become angry since anger follows fear. If what we do causes them to feel loved and makes them happy, they will feel love for us in return.

Should you have a right to join a gym? Sure.

Should you have the right to join a gym if the budget is tight, you have to hire a baby sitter or your spouse has to take care of the kids while you go off and enjoy yourself with friends from the gym every night?

Should you be able to run? Of course!

Should you be able to run any time you feel like it no matter what your spouse has planned or what his or her concerns are regarding your running partner or where you are doing your running?

Does a controlling abuser try to isolate his or her victim from friends and family in order to more fully control him or her? Absolutely!

Does that make any attempt to express my own feelings about my wife's IB abuse?

More to the point, if I express concern over my wife spending time with another man whether it is running, working out at the gym, planning programs for church or designing a new house because she is spending time doing that and excluding me from her life whether by design or by accident, is THAT abuse and an attempt to control her?

Since when two people get married they supposedly stop being two separate entities and are supposed to become one united family, where did this notion of "I have the RIGHT to do..." at the expense of my spouse come from? I see it everywhere these days.

Independent behavior without any consideration given to your spouse does not make for a strong marriage. It also leads to a private life (secret second life) that your spouse is excluded from. This in turn leads to isolation from each other.

Spending more and more time doing independent activities and less time doing things together in order to meet each others ENs causes us to slip from Intimacy into Conflict at which point the Love Busters really start and soon one or both have fallen into Withdrawal and our marriage is in serious jeopardy. At that point we no longer care whether we get anything from each other or not since we just don't care any more.

AND a secret second life that excludes our spouse is how affairs begin. While no affair is going on just because you join a gym, unless you can replace that time with your spouse meeting each others ENs then you both become vulnerable to the point that an affair becomes more likely.

You don't have to set about having an affair to have an affair. It is subtle thing sometimes. If my ENs are not being met I am already vulnerable. If someone starts meeting some EN that is not being met by my spouse then they are making LB$ deposits faster than my spouse is. Even something as seemingly minor as conversation, recreational companionship (big EN for most men) or any EN at all can rapidly cause someone's LB$ balance to exceed the romantic threshold.

If you are already in the habit of excluding your spouse from the activity that has led to this point, you are highly likely to hide the new dynamic to the relationship from him or her as well. And NOW, you begin down a slippery slope that is very hard to get off of once the decent has begun because if I am getting from someone what I desperately need and want I am very reluctant to give it up.

Even if the OP does not start an affair with her running partner if that partner is a man and one of his ENs is RC then she is making deposits into HIS LB$ and he ends up falling in love with her.

So it isn't about control, it is about protection. I can't stop my wife from having an affair, but she can. If she doesn't do what she needs to do to avoid it, it becomes a very real possibility. She has to take steps to avoid what leads to affairs in order to not end up having one.

RC is generally one of the top 3 ENs of most men. If you want a guy to fall in love with you watch the game on TV with him, go fishing with him, learn to shoot guns and buy a set of golf clubs and he'll follow you to the ends of the earth. If you don't want him to fall in love with you, then don't do those things.

This is why UA is the cornerstone of MB. Add to that the fact that IB is itself a Love Buster and the road to ruin can often begin with a night doing something innocent and fun especially if it excludes our spouse by design or default.


But each of us can only take responsibility for what is ours. We can't change someone else only ourselves.

When a BS comes here it takes a while to get them to give up the idea of controlling the WS and begin seeing that by fixing his or her half of the equation. If you fix your half you remove objections and make the marriage more attractive to the spouse. This is what Plan A is all about.

A great marriage isn't about finding the right person; it's about being the right person. If you take care of your half, your spouse is much more likely to respond in kind than if you demand changes from them while distancing yourself more and more.

And again, if abuse is the situation, then that is a completely different problem and protection becomes the primary concern.

But you can't change your spouse. You can only try to make them want to change by changing yourself into someone they are willing to give up their own selfishness for.

Mark

Or they simply choose NOT to join you...for their own reasons and turn it around on you.

1. She likes to run, he can join her on a bicycle. Chooses NOT to.
My H = same.
2. Go to the gym. [there is No one else there } always has a "reason' why he 'can't'...oh well....I go..because I NEED my workouts. Full Stop. Non-negotiable, he knew that when he met me, and BEFORE he married me. Nothing new there.

Why should she/me QUIT to appease him? Appease WHAT precisely? His inner self doubting demons? Lousy way to treat your partner.

He tosses ugly insinuations at her? Based on what? The evidence of his imagination? And she is to kow tow to him? Let him suck the Life out of her? For what? " Affair proofing"...?

Marriage should be about growth together and personal. It's a two way street. When one is cutting away at your personal growth/ improvement ...what does marriage mean? Grow only where your spouse decides it's " OK" for HIM? Since when was that part of the marriage vows?

So which came first? The chicken or the egg?

I wholeheartedly agree that the "friendship" with the coffee buddy was/is a slippery slope. She needs to cool it big time or better yet, cut it off.

But I do think there's some blame on the H's side as well. MSD should be able to spend an agreed-to amount of time with the girls or time with hobbies without getting the third degree from H.

Mel keeps talking of POJA -- the problem here, that cat has repeatedly been trying to make -- is that when you have someone who is so incredibly insecure and in need of total control, that person will NEVER agree to ANYTHING beyond having her in the same room with him.

I once dated a guy to whom I was totally devoted. He came first in my life, no other close friends - male or female. Then the red flags started waving. The first was when I attended a work function, an awards banquet, where my employer was getting some awards. He was not at all happy that I was attending. Seeing as how I was not married to him, I didn't feel he was in a position to tell me what I could or could not do, so I went. There were no flirting, no sex, nothing. Just an awards banquet and a little business networking.

The second conflict was when he was attending a work function out of town, I went out with my sister on St. Patrick's Day. I'm Irish; it's what we do. We went to a place with Irish music, drank green beer (ick), the usual St. Patrick's Day thing. Seeing as he was out of town (also at a function that involved dinner and drinks) I didn't see a big deal with this. But nooo, he expected me to sit at home for the weekend and knit or something.

There were also hints that he felt women did not belong in the working world, rather, they should be home, barefoot, pregnant, and knitting. Needless to say, I didn't want to spend my life isolated from the rest of the world, so we broke up.

Isolation. That is pretty much what MSD's H is trying to do -- isolate her from the rest of the world, including her own sister. Did you know that is one of the biggest tools emotional abusers use? Keeping their spouse in isolation?

My H occasionally goes out with work friends after the office closes, and so do I. We're both adults, we make sure the other's is okay with it, and that's why it works. But MSD can't do that with her H because his answer will ALWAYS be no. And that is NOT all her fault. His insecurities and quest for total control are a big part of this. Plenty of blame rests on him.

So yeah, she should cut off the friendship with the guy coffee buddy from work, but she should NOT have to isolate herself from the world to the degree her H wants her to. That is just not healthy. And I don't think Mel, wise as she is, can really understand what it is like to be attached to a controlling abusive person without having been in those shoes. It stinks big time.

But we don't know that he is incredibly "insecure." We only know that she is very thoughtless and is defining his objections to her cruel behavior as "controlling" and "abusive." A typical chick tactic.

What we do know is that the poster leads the life of a SINGLE woman and actively TORMENTS him. Her obnoxious behavior would naturally cause insecurity in any normal person. And if he is truly mentally ill, the answer is not to TORMENT him but to get him mental help.