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SD, your post indicates that you miss the point entirely and don't have the slightest notion of what constitutes a happy marriage, much less about the basics of Marriage Builders. Following such disrespectful advice as "inform him that a cranial rectal operation is in order" and "inflict idiocy on him" is not helpful. It is idiotic. Being disrespectful is what got her into this mess, common sense dictates it is not going to be the solution. It is not about what she is "allowed" to do. He is not her big poppa daddy, after all. She can do whatever she wants. She is not a child. It is about her willingness to STOP being disrespectful and thoughtless. It is about stopping the DISRESPECT. It is about stopping being a TAKER in her marriage and learning to use the POJA. Her thoughtless behavior triggers his angry outbursts. You told her earlier to: "1. LEAVE....and inform him that a cranial rectal operation is in order before you consider going back." GOOD GRIEF. That was real helpful...........NOT. Lovebusting is not the ticket to a happy marriage. Turn the tables....and watch HIM go up in flames!!! Learn the non-rules of his idiocy and inflict them on him. Probably go ballistic on you....but worth it just for the satisfaction. Wow, that will surely lead to a happy marriage!  SD, nothing you have recommended here will help the problem. It will only make it worse. Nor is it even close to Marriage Builders basic concepts.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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ML, while I agree she’s egging him on and needs to stop, as I said, I do see a streak of controlling tendencies in him. "Controlling" is the common refrain of spouses who don't want to stop independent, disrespectful behavior. I used to say my husband was "controlling" and "abusive" when he objected to my thoughtless, independent behavior. Funny how he stopped being "controlling" when I stopped tormenting him with thoughtlessness and independent behavior. The whole dynamic of my marriage changed when that happened. catperson, you seem real unfamiliar with the MB program. Can I ask which books you have read? ML, I'm completely familiar with MB. I've read all of the books here, as well as probably 100 others. I suppose you have, too? Have you read "Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men"? Every quote I listed from her post describing her husband can be found in that book. So, yes, I DO think he is controlling due to his own self-esteem issues. I do believe I did agree with you about her own behavior, did I not? You seem to have a tendency to tell nearly every woman here that if she would just give in and give up wanting things that have anything to do with anything besides their husbands, everything would be fine. Well, guess what? With some spouses, that just doesn't work. You are putting your own history on your answers, just like I do. But when it comes to disruptive, possibly abnormal behavior - something I have a lot of experience with - you dismiss it as the woman just being selfish. I've been using MB for a year now. It has made some headway with my H and with me, but it has NOT changed his absolute need to be right and in charge in every instance. Does your husband, when he tells you to pick up the sponge, and he meant to say brush, and you ask "Sponge?" because you have no idea what he's talking about (no sponge in the vacinity), does your husband get angry and say "DON'T QUESTION ME!"? THAT is controlling behavior. No matter how much of myself I have given up, no matter how affectionate I am, no matter how much time I spend on his work and his personal issues, he takes it and asks for more. No, demands and expects more. You apparently were being selfish with your husband and he reacted. You stopped, he stopped reacting. Pretty simple equation. I have stopped every thing I can think of. I haven't seen my best friend in 5 years because H questions why I have to spend time away from him. My other friend I've seen once in 5 years, only because she met me for lunch at my work. When I try to see my 75 year old mom once a month, he asks why I have to go. I see the same traits in several of the posters here. I've been living with it for 30 years because I've been stupid and have no self-esteem (big surprise). But when I see someone here heading down that slope, I WILL mention the possibility so that they can at least question the possibility and maybe save themselves from the h&ll I've put myself through by accepting it. ML, everything you suggest is great for two relatively mentally healthy people. But he has all the signs of a controlling abusive person, no matter how much you don't want to see it. Fine. Don't see it. But don't tear down other people just cos they don't attend to your viewpoint. She needs to consider ALL possibilities. And if she is indeed married to a controlling person, she will NEVER get help from MB principles, because he will use that Giver against her.
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1. Can you leave the house while your H was informed, forget your cell phone, and return home without the Spanish Inquisition?
2. Can you RUN alone without having to account for it? [ He knows where you are running and can come and check if he wants to..]
3. Can you join a gym for your health and not get 'grilled' for whom you SAW or SPOKE to? [ He has been invited to join but chooses not to]
4. Can you go out for coffee with GF's and return later than intended without being accused of cheating? [ he has the phone numbers of these GF's and can call to VERIFY if he chooses NOT to believe her whereabouts?] I am a grown woman who can do any damn thing I choose so it makes no sense to say "can you" to an ADULT. Of course I CAN. And so can she. WE ARE ADULTS. But what I also CAN DO if I want to have a happy marriage is not CHOOSE TO be the source of my husbands unhappiness. IF I WANT TO HAVE A HAPPY MARRIAGE. If my H were "insecure" and "insanely jealous" I would NOT go out and act like a single person. I would not do it anyway because it is destructive to marriages. If he felt uneasy when I went running, I would take steps to eliminate his uneasiness by either running WITH HIM or using my elliptical in the house. OR NOT RUNNING AT ALL. If my H felt uncomfortable with me joining a gym, I WOULD NOT JOIN THE GYM. DUH! I would not CHOOSE to be the source of my husband's unhappiness. Just as I don't want him to CHOOSE to be the source of my unhappiness. That street goes both way. That is what a person does to achieve a HAPPY MARRIAGE. And it works!
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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1. Can you leave the house while your H was informed, forget your cell phone, and return home without the Spanish Inquisition?
2. Can you RUN alone without having to account for it? [ He knows where you are running and can come and check if he wants to..]
3. Can you join a gym for your health and not get 'grilled' for whom you SAW or SPOKE to? [ He has been invited to join but chooses not to]
4. Can you go out for coffee with GF's and return later than intended without being accused of cheating? [ he has the phone numbers of these GF's and can call to VERIFY if he chooses NOT to believe her whereabouts?] I am a grown woman who can do any damn thing I choose so it makes no sense to say "can you" to an ADULT. Of course I CAN. And so can she. WE ARE ADULTS. But what I also CAN DO if I want to have a happy marriage is not CHOOSE TO be the source of my husbands unhappiness. IF I WANT TO HAVE A HAPPY MARRIAGE. If my H were "insecure" and "insanely jealous" I would NOT go out and act like a single person. I would not do it anyway because it is destructive to marriages. If he felt uneasy when I went running, I would take steps to eliminate his uneasiness by either running WITH HIM or using my elliptical in the house. OR NOT RUNNING AT ALL. If my H felt uncomfortable with me joining a gym, I WOULD NOT JOIN THE GYM. DUH! I would not CHOOSE to be the source of my husband's unhappiness. Just as I don't want him to CHOOSE to be the source of my unhappiness. That street goes both way. That is what a person does to achieve a HAPPY MARRIAGE. And it works! It DOESN'T work with a controlling, abusive husband. Nothing will ever be enough. Please do some reading on abusive personalities, and you will see that giving up everything you like will never satisfy such a person, because he still has to keep finding other ways to keep you walking on eggshells so you remain dependent on not pissing him off and on pleasing him. I am a grown woman who can do any damn thing I choose so it makes no sense to say "can you" to an ADULT. Of course I CAN. And so can she. WE ARE ADULTS. ML, if you would research abuse victims, you would know that this is ABSOLUTELY not true of them. They CANNOT do whatever they please. You don't understand the mindset of a person who has been programmed, if you will, to NOT displease her H so that she doesn't bring on yet another tirade from him on what she has done wrong. A healthy ego will tell him to go stuff it. An abuse victim will cry, hate herself, and ask him how to make up for it. A world of difference. And why 90% of abuse victims can never leave their abuser - their identity, their self-worth, is stripped from them. If you don't understand the mentality, please don't try to treat it. You have no idea what it's like.
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I do believe I did agree with you about her own behavior, did I not? You seem to have a tendency to tell nearly every woman here that if she would just give in and give up wanting things that have anything to do with anything besides their husbands, everything would be fine. Well, guess what? With some spouses, that just doesn't work. cat, with all due respect, I don't believe you do understand the basic concepts of Marriage Builders and how a happy marriage is built. The POJA dictates that a spouse do nothing without the others enthusiastic agreement. That is a critical component. So I don't even know what you MEAN when you say I tell nearly every woman to "give in." I do no such thing. There is no giving in, there is negotiating an ENTHUSIASTIC AGREEMENT. There is treating your spouse with respect. BASIC Marriage Builders concepts.I see nothing "controlling" with her H. I see very typical behavior coming from a man who is married to a woman who is profoundly thoughtless and disrespectful; who is committed to independent behavior. This is a spouse who tells us her H is "insecure" and "insanely jealous" yet she deliberately does things she knows is hurtful and aggravating. When he objects he is subjected to disrespectful judgments such as "controlling" and "insanely jealous." Sorry, but I don't buy it. He is very right to object her thoughtlessness and that has nothing to do with being "controlling." It does this woman a disservice to give credence to the notion that her H is "insecure" and "controlling" when the focus should be on stopping her thoughtless behavior that she knows aggravates him. The Policy of Joint Agreement
Never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement
between you and your spouse
When you follow this policy, your Giver likes the part of it that requires your spouse to be in enthusiastic agreement about every decision you make, and your Taker likes the part that requires you to be in enthusiastic agreement. But the Giver will think that you're being selfish when you don't do whatever it takes to make your spouse happy, and your Taker will think you are just plain dumb to let your spouse's lack of "enthusiasm" prevent you from doing whatever makes you happy. Yet, if you follow this rule, it will prevent you from giving so much that it hurts you, or taking so much that you hurt your spouse. It forces you into the balance you need in marriage to create and sustain a compatible lifestyle and the feeling of love.
This rule teaches couples to become thoughtful and sensitive to each other's feelings when they don't feel like it. If both spouses follow this policy, they avoid all the Love Busters because they won't mutually agree to anything that hurts one of them. Demands, disrespect and anger are eliminated because even negotiating strategy must be mutually agreed to, and no one likes to be the recipient of abuse. Annoying behavior is eliminated because if one spouse finds any behavior or activity of the other annoying, according to the policy, it cannot be done. It even eliminates dishonesty, because a lie is certainly not something that you would agree to enthusiastically. It helps plug up the holes in the sieve of the Love Bank that cause most couples to drift into loveless incompatibility.
It also forces couples to negotiate fairly. The Policy itself prevents either spouse from making unilateral decisions about anything, so they must discuss every decision they make before action can be taken. Demands are out of the question, because they are not made to create enthusiastic agreement -- they are made to force one spouse to lose so that the other can gain. The same can be said for Disrespectful Judgments and Angry Outbursts. What role do any of those Love Busters have in a discussion where the goal is enthusiastic agreement? In their place, each spouse learns to make requests and express opinions, showing respect for the other spouse's opinions. The sheer folly and stupidity of demands, disrespect and anger are vividly demonstrated when a mutually enthusiastic agreement is your goal. continued at: link
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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ML, if you would research abuse victims, you would know that this is ABSOLUTELY not true of them. They CANNOT do whatever they please. She is not a victim and she is not being abused. Of course she can do as she pleases. All women are not silly hapless victims, cat. sigh...
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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ML..much as I appreciate your POV...I disagree with your suggestions. My suggestions are no better..LOL...but I know that yours ....are "worse"... You don't "make a happy marriage" but cutting off your own right to BREATHE and get his "permission" for everything. Doesn't work. Not with a control freak that uses 'guilt' and manipulative insinuations to "get his way." Which is precisely what he has been doing. Read Patricia Evans on Verbal Abuse. Lundy Bancroft as Cat suggested...you will see a very different animal. It is not about what she is "allowed" to do. He is not her big poppa daddy, after all. She can do whatever she wants. She is not a child. LOL...with an abusive controller...it is PRECISELY that. She can NEVER do anything she wants. He WANTS HER HOME. Full stop. Why on EARTH should a RUN be "damaging" to a marriage??? DOES NOT COMPUTE. LEAVING is the ONLY option a woman has to get an abusive personality to briefly glimpse daylight, and even then...it's almost never effective. IF he truly BELIEVES that she is having ALL these affairs....Why on God's green earth does he stay?? For what? He knows it is baloney, but he uses it to jerk her chain to make her feel "guilty" for who knows what and how...but that is how these guys "control"...it's SUBTLE...and chokes the life out of a person. Any tiny sign of having the capacity for Independent thought that does NOT revolve around being his "Yes Man" is his Call to ABUSE at Will. Not fun... MB principles work with Mentally Healthy people ...not abusers. ex. Applying the MB principles: My H asked if I am cheating on him,,,,or why be so Nice? Talk about a kick in the teeth! Couple days later...I brought it up calmly to him that this hurt. Then he tells me it was a "joke,"....my cute butt it was! He was not smiling laughing nor joking at the time he said it. Straight out of the blue. Cruel. It DOESN'T work with a controlling, abusive husband. Nothing will ever be enough. Please do some reading on abusive personalities, and you will see that giving up everything you like will never satisfy such a person, because he still has to keep finding other ways to keep you walking on eggshells so you remain dependent on not pissing him off and on pleasing him. When your stone cold dead....they're "happy."...One of the walking dead...doing what you're told...nothing more. And jumping around trying to read their fool minds. Rules are constantly changing...it's, in short, a crap way to live. A healthy ego will tell him to go stuff it. An abuse victim will cry, hate herself, and ask him how to make up for it. When she Tells him to go stuff it...or is more polite about it...or not, for that matter... you know what happens? It gets worse.
Last edited by SoulDragoN; 10/02/08 06:13 AM.
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SD, I DO work with abusers and abuse victims....and have for a long time.
Does her husband display some troublesome characteristics...without a doubt YES.
Does she fuel the fire by her behaviors...without a doubt YES.
They both need help. The POJA will address much of this...but his self esteem/control issues need to be addressed. HER independent thinking and behaviors also need to be addressed.
There is enough blame to go around here in this marriage. Mel offers some great suggestions....Cat also offers some useful advice (mixed in with some very questionable things as well). And BTW, Cat, I have read the book...along with Dr. H's and sincerely believe that some of the book (Why does he do that?) paints an unfair picture and swings the pendulum too far in some people. In many ways, Bancroft would consider the POJA to be a huge red flag.
SD, a "run" can be damaging to a marriage if the person is doing it with a member of the opposite sex.
The man has some issues for sure. If he does not address them...they cannot have a happy life together. The same goes with her. Right now, the best thing for him would be therapy...and for her...she should stop her destructive behaviors. I would not tolerate some of the things she does....nor should her husband.
Now, if she stops these independent behaviors...and he refuses to get help for his BIG issues, I would say that she should remove herself from this marriage until and if he gets help. Right now it is impossible to tell how much of a role her actions have played here. If, after a short time, there is not a marked improvement in his behaviors, she should get out.
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ML, if you would research abuse victims, you would know that this is ABSOLUTELY not true of them. They CANNOT do whatever they please. She is not a victim and she is not being abused. Of course she can do as she pleases. All women are not silly hapless victims, cat. sigh... Cat, the point is, they truly CAN do as they please. For a multitude of reasons, they choose not to.
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ML..much as I appreciate your POV...I disagree with your suggestions. My suggestions are no better..LOL...but I know that yours ....are "worse"... SD, speaking of mental health, the advice you gave above is the most irresponsible advice I have ever seen on this forum: 1. LEAVE....and inform him that a cranial rectal operation is in order before you consider going back.
2. This is a bad idea....but when the crap gets too much....smash a bottle over his head...might "wake him up" H currently sporting 11 stitches...however....I can charge him...and he can charge me..*shrugs* You might know how to barroom brawl but you don't have a clue how to save a marriage. I dare say that the quotes I posted from Dr Harley are in a different league than yours. You are clearly out of your league, dear.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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He would always sulk whenever I had to study with a group that included men you didn't HAVE to do this...you chose to against your husbands wishes. We once broke up over a friend of mine from college had to use my apartment to stay overnight for an interview at my school the following morning (the way I did with another colleague when I interviewed). This was thoroughly inappropriate on your part! Your husband(then BF) should have been furious! he refused to let me invite this guy to our wedding. As would I. When I became pregnant with our first daughter, I was still away at school, we had a brief separation because he started telling the whole world, including my father, that the baby was not his. Based upon your behavior noted above, his concern is not irrational. including my husband mentioning rumors going around (perhaps started in his head since he could never name his sources) that I was having affairs with various people at church. again, based on your lack of boundaries with men, I wonder if they really started in his head. I've even had to give up going to dinner once a month with 2 of my colleagues from work (one male and one female) because my husband did not feel comfortable with that arrangement. It is NOT appropriate. You are married...you should not be going out with other men. Period. Your place is at home with your family...not hanging out with single friends. I took a ballroom dancing class, and knowing the type of person my husband was, opted to take the class with his nephew Again, not appropriate. We even started going to therapy because he felt that I wasn't spending enough time with the family because of my training schedule. and your point is what??? I developed a close friendship with a male co-worker. yet another example of your thoughtlessness. he sort of replaced her as my coffee buddy in the morning. The only problem was he was neither a girl, nor gay, and worse, he worked in the cutodial department and has a motorcycle which my husband is sure I'm always riding on. sounds like an emotional affair. BTW, did you EVER ride on the bike with him? YOUR behavior has been entirely inappropriate in regards to other men! YOUR failure to see that speaks volumes about your motives.
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The problem with ending my relationship with this guy is how many friends do I have to lose before my husband works out his insecurities? All of them, if necessary. "Forsaking ALL others and keeping myself only unto you, until death do us part." "In Sickness and in Health, for Richer or for Poorer, for Better or for Worse..." Sound familiar. You are MARRIED. Time to start acting married and not single. It's not that this guy is the best, most indispensable friend ever, it's just that when is it going to be enough? When you are Divorced. Keep going down this path of self-centeredness and you WILL get to that point. You really don't have a good understanding of what it MEANS to be married and you don't seem to have a commitment to the Marriage or to your husband. Would you like to learn how to have a good loving marriage? Or do you want to continue to rationalize and justify your self-centerdness and blame your husband for wanting a WIFE?
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For a POV from someone who was abused by a control freak, I do see a lot of similarities to my first M in this. I took more punches for infidelity than the worse WS ever described on this site. For example, if I went into a store and the clerk was male, I must have f***d him (this was the terminology he used). If a male telemarketer called, it must be because I was f***ing him. If I took the garbage out at the same time as a male neighbour, it must have been so I could f*** him. Even if we were walking down the street together and a male was walking the other way, I must want to f*** him. My dr was male - my whole pregnancy was a series of beatings because I must have been turned on by all those check ups. I didn't dare meet any friends, male or female because it didn't matter - if it was male I was f***ing him, if it was female I was lying because I was really f***ing some guy.
So I know exactly what an insanely jealous H is like. I see some of the signs in this post.
However, she most certainly is aggrevating him. In my first M, I wouldn't have dared do ANY of the things she does - not just because of the consequences but because I knew exactly what he would be thinking.
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"WHAT ABOUT TIME ALONE?"
Dear Dr. Harley,
You recommend spending a minimum of 15 hours per week with your partner. But what if one of your partner's needs is having time to themselves? Wouldn't this make your time together more difficult to achieve when both parties have a busy work schedule?
Just for clarification, "alone time" means that one partner is away from the home for a minimum of four - eight hours a week.
Do any of your books or articles deal with this particular issue? Time alone at the expense of time together seems intuitively counter productive to a relationship. However, it might build a level of desire for the other partner (“absence makes the heart grow fonder”).
Any thoughts concerning this issue would be most appreciated.
L. R.
Dear L. R.
I’ve found that it’s almost impossible to create and sustain a romantic relationship without spending 15 hours a week meeting the emotional needs of affection, intimate conversation, recreational companionship, and sexual fulfillment. I’ve studied this issue by investigating the habits of thousands of couples, and with very few exceptions, my 15 hour rule holds up.
Granted, there are many who want time by themselves, and I have no problem with that. But if a romantic relationship is to be achieved, 15 hours of undivided attention each week is necessary. There’s no reason why a couple, even with a busy schedule, can’t do both.
The problem most couples have with this rule isn’t that they don’t have the time, but rather, that they have fallen out of love. They don’t enjoy intimate time together. When not in love, being affectionate, intimately conversant, and engaging in lovemaking just doesn’t seem right for many people who are not in love.
The program I offer for marital recovery requires a couple to spend 15 hours each week meeting intimate emotional needs, even when it feels awkward at first. That’s because the meeting of those needs usually deposits enough love units to bring Love Bank balances above the romantic love threshold. When that happens, a couple finds themselves wanting to spend 15 hours together each week meeting those emotional needs.
Truth is, you have time to meet each other’s emotional needs if you remove something from your schedule that’s less important. There are 168 hours in a week, 56 of which should be spent sleeping. Getting up in the morning, taking a shower, having breakfast, and getting ready for bed in the evening usually takes about 12 hours a week for women, and 7 hours for men. Depending on your gender, you have either 100 or 105 hours remaining. Work, including travel to and from, should not take more than 50 hours a week, leaving 50-55 hours. If 15 hours for undivided attention is scheduled in those hours, you still have 35-40 hours left each week. That’s plenty of time for children, household tasks, church, hobbies, and, yes, “alone time.” Workaholics can even increase their time at work using some of those extra hours, and still avoid missing out on having a romantic marriage.
As I already mentioned, the problem isn’t time – it’s the willingness to spend the time creating and sustaining a romantic relationship. I’ve been married 45 years and throughout those years, Joyce and I have been in love each year. The only way that could have been achieved is for us to have dedicated a minimum of 15 hours a week for undivided attention. When I was in graduate school, and working full-time to support my family, I made sure that we had time together. When I operated 32 mental health clinics, and often worked 80 hours a week, we didn’t neglect our time together. In those situations, I really didn’t have the luxury of having “alone time,” but then, I really didn’t miss it. My time with Joyce was far more enjoyable and relaxing than time I would have spent being by myself.
That’s what most people feel when they are in a romantic relationship: If they have a choice between being with the one they love, or being by themselves, they choose the one they love almost every time.
Your situation may require a renewal of your love for each other. You may find that, for awhile, you should simply schedule 15 hours together so that you have an opportunity to make enough Love Bank deposits to break through the romantic love threshold. If you do it right, it will become the most enjoyable 15 hours of your week for both of you. Then, the need to be alone may no longer be an issue. The above is from Dr Harley in his news letter.... The question that I hear being asked all the time is "Don't I deserve to have time to myself?" Yep. You sure do deserve to have time alone to go to the bathroom, take a shower, get dressed without an audience etc. Here's some news: You even deserve to have time alone to spend on hobbies and recreational activities. If a marriage is a promise to each other to provide for each other what Dr Harley calls Extraordinary Care, that is, to actually meet each others most important Emotional Needs and avoid doing things that make each other unhappy (Love Busters) then anything that our spouse considers a Love Buster is a Love Buster, even if it isn't on the good doctor's list. Why does anyone think that spending nights out partying with single friends, whether same sex or opposite sex, is the right way to build a marriage? Why would anyone who knows that a certain behavior makes his or her spouse unhappy continue that activity? Why would anyone want to spend the majority of their time with friends rather than with their spouse? Shouldn't our spouse be our best friend and favorite recreational partner according to Dr Harley? Doesn't the statement "I deserve..." imply entitlement? Isn't that where the selfish line of reasoning that leads to affairs begins? Single people hang out with all their friends, go out drinking, party, watch the game down at the bar every Sunday, stay out till the sun comes up, take up hobbies and activities that require long hours away from home and live like no one else matters at all. Some of us not only get married but also grow up and see that a MARRIAGE is nothing like being single. It is in fact making someone else at least as important as ourselves and what we want to do. Is this woman's husband abusive and controlling? I have no idea... Is she acting like a married woman who actually loves her husband and puts the marriage ahead of her own selfishness? I think not... At least she isn't talking that way... Mark
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ML..much as I appreciate your POV...I disagree with your suggestions. My suggestions are no better..LOL...but I know that yours ....are "worse"...
You don't "make a happy marriage" but cutting off your own right to BREATHE and get his "permission" for everything. Doesn't work. Not with a control freak that uses 'guilt' and manipulative insinuations to "get his way." Which is precisely what he has been doing. Nonsense, SoulDragoN. Stop for a minute and really think about what you are advocating here. What you are calling a "control freak" I would suggest you think about in terms of the marriage COMMITMENT, freely and voluntarily entered into by both spouses. The marriage premise is simple: exclusivity of one another and putting the needs (best addressed through POJA) of each other ahead of personal wants and desires, ESPECIALLY when they are detrimental to the MARRIAGE. A marriage is NOT a 50/50 deal, it is a 100%/100% deal with the marriage (and each other as the two parts of that marriage that are invested in each other). What you are advocating for is the TAKER mentality when the operative mentality should be the GIVER. Put biblically, "it is better to give than to receive." If you want to receive, then first give. That is also the premise of the Love Bank philosophy of Dr. Harley. Make "deposits" through giving and before long you will begin to receive return deposits AND the "interest" in both of your "love banks" will begin to return greater and greater "funds" that will strengthen and protect the marriage from "runs on the bank" from outside sources.
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 143
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You might know how to barroom brawl but you don't have a clue how to save a marriage. I dare say that the quotes I posted from Dr Harley are in a different league than yours. You are clearly out of your league, dear. *sigh* If YOU like and THRIVE living in a situation where your EVERY move is questioned, examined and then YOUR INTENT is assigned to YOU....by another...then so be it. I somehow doubt that most sane individuals would appreciate it. If you have any sense of SELF as an independent organism....you won't. 1. Drinking in pubs with single friends= Not good. 2. Male confidants = Not Good 3. Constant accusations of infidelity without evidence= Not Good 4. RUN alone or with Sister= Perfectly NORMAL...and any Male who has a problem with that, requires a serious and deep investigation of how far past the sphincter muscle his cranial matter has been lost and starved without oxygen. 5. Coffee or dinner with GIRL friends= Perfectly AOK..why not? 6. VERBALLY ABUSING her for any reason= NOT ok. POJA doesn't work with Abusers. It IS a major Red Flag and the perfect manipulative tool. Forget it. Been there done that....the noose was far too tight. I will politely tell you to stuff your condescending "dear" ...educate yourself further.
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985 Likes: 1
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Posts: 92,985 Likes: 1 |
I will politely tell you to stuff your condescending "dear" ...educate yourself further. SD, you are not doing this woman any favors telling her she is "abused" and giving her dreadful advice like this: ...smash a bottle over his head...might "wake him up" H currently sporting 11 stitches...however....I can charge him...and he can charge me..*shrugs* Like I said before, you might know how to bar-room brawl, but you don't have the slightest idea how to save a marriage. I don't believe I have ever seen Dr Harley advise someone to smash a beer bottle over someone's head, and I do believe he has saved a marriage or two. GOOD GRIEF...
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 11,245
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SD, I DO work with abusers and abuse victims....and have for a long time.
Does her husband display some troublesome characteristics...without a doubt YES.
Does she fuel the fire by her behaviors...without a doubt YES.
They both need help. The POJA will address much of this...but his self esteem/control issues need to be addressed. HER independent thinking and behaviors also need to be addressed.
There is enough blame to go around here in this marriage. Mel offers some great suggestions....Cat also offers some useful advice (mixed in with some very questionable things as well). And BTW, Cat, I have read the book...along with Dr. H's and sincerely believe that some of the book (Why does he do that?) paints an unfair picture and swings the pendulum too far in some people. In many ways, Bancroft would consider the POJA to be a huge red flag.
SD, a "run" can be damaging to a marriage if the person is doing it with a member of the opposite sex.
The man has some issues for sure. If he does not address them...they cannot have a happy life together. The same goes with her. Right now, the best thing for him would be therapy...and for her...she should stop her destructive behaviors. I would not tolerate some of the things she does....nor should her husband.
Now, if she stops these independent behaviors...and he refuses to get help for his BIG issues, I would say that she should remove herself from this marriage until and if he gets help. Right now it is impossible to tell how much of a role her actions have played here. If, after a short time, there is not a marked improvement in his behaviors, she should get out. Is that not what I've been saying? She needs to stop all these things that drive him crazy. He needs to stop trying to control her. But her stopping all the things that drive him crazy without addressing HIS issues will NOT solve their problem. And I believe Bancroft said that POJA (his version) doesn't work with an abusive or controlling person, not a person who's just freaked out by his wife's IB. Only those two know the real answer. Like I've said, she may just be a big faker and egging him on for fun; h*ll, this could just be a troll. But if he truly has basic insecurities and fears that he compensates for by trying to control his mate, those fears will NOT go away just because she stops doing anything outside spending time with her husband! They won't! Because he would have deeper issues that will cause him to find NEW ways to get her to prove to him that she loves him. Once she gives up anything but him, he will STILL doubt that she loves him and will keep criticizing her, questioning her, making her defend herself, and it will devolve into a wife who is either a zombie or a suicide victim. I truly hope that this is just a case of IB and selfishness. I truly hope she learns from all this and tries dropping all that and going the MB way and it works. I just want her to realize that, if after she has tried that and has changed her ways and he continues in this vein, she look at the other, darker option.
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985 Likes: 1
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[And I believe Bancroft said that POJA (his version) doesn't work with an abusive or controlling person, not a person who's just freaked out by his wife's IB.. catperson, we have seen nothing here that indicates he is really abusive. Just the opposite, we see a woman who describes her H as "insecure" and "insanely jealous" and then in the next breath describes how she has systematically tormented him for years with behavior that would make anyone insecure. And he is the bad guy? ummm no... That dog won't hunt. There is a much stronger case here of abuse on HER PART. What kind of person purposely torments such an "insecure" person? That speaks volumes about her own intentions. I agree with MEDC about this likely being an emotional affair. Calling the man "insecure" and "insanely jealous" is to add insult to injury. That is GASLIGHTING, if you ask me.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,058
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a "run" can be damaging to a marriage if the person is doing it with a member of the opposite sex. A "run" can be damaging to a marriage if it is done without consideration given to your spouse. Who it is with really doesn't matter. A "run" can be damaging to a marriage if it is done to the exclusion of spending time with your spouse meeting each others ENs and making LB$ deposits. A "run" can be damaging to a marriage if it leaves your spouse home alone to wonder what is going on with you and when you return you say "None of your business because it is MY life." You can replace the word "run" with fishing, horseback riding, shopping at the mall, taking classes at the community college, gardening or anything else you might want to put ahead of your marriage because you "deserve" to be independent. Marriage partners are not supposed to be independent. They need to be interdependent. Husband and wife should not have "my life" and "your life." They should have "our life" as a first priority. This is what Extraordinary Care is supposed to be. I have no idea if this guy is a control freak or not. I do know that the road to adultery begins with living separate lives and not placing the marriage first over individual desires. Mark
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