*Is he unhappy with your boundaries?

*Does he feel like extreme precautions are his prison?

*Does he resent having to be accountable for his whereabouts?

*Does he refer to you as his warden or parole officer?

*Is he often angry for no good reason?

*Is he still foggy?

*Is he balking at making changes to your marriage?

*After a few weeks of NC have gone by, do you fail to see a new man beginning to emerge?


Even one yes answer would not be good, but if you have a cluster it's time to check very carefully for contact.

Also, take this little quiz now, and again in a week. Which direction are your answers headed? If there are fewer yes answers as time goes on, you are probably headed the right direction, though you should still stay alert and check stuff. If you're headed the other direction, WS is probably back in contact.

If Mel's memory is correct, and they are still working together, there is contact. Skip the quiz and go straight to Plan A/Plan B.

They can't work together and just "not talk" and have it count as NC. If that's what's happening, you aren't in recovery, and finding out if there's NC is a "moo point", as my kids call it.

There has to be true NC first.

No, they are not working together any more. They were working closely on a project but are not based in the same lab. (She moved in Jan when her PhD finished)
As far as I know there has been contact of any sort since Monday last (a professional phone call)

And yes he did agree to zero contact as I said above but only following the most severe threats from me.

He says he has broken all contact but how do I know if true NC is happening?

Answering these questions:
1. He is accepting them reluctantly.
2. No but when I say I don't fully trust/believe him he doesn't make huge efforts to reassure me.
3. No not really.
4. No
5. No
6. Yes
7. He is not doing anything in particular, seems to think that his presence is enough to make a go of this marriage.
8. It's only been 6 days but he says that the contact on Monday was a very short professional phone call and the contact before that was a week earlier but no so far no signs of a new man. In fact it's the old one I'd like to see coming back.

This is so hard to take and patience has never been my strong point.

It looks like NC isn't being upheld.

If I were him, this is how I'd be acting if I were getting just enough crumbs to sustain my addiction...

Ain't no such animal.

I agree with KM - contact is probably limited right now. You can expect it to grow over time, and for him to try to give you just enough to keep you from dumping him, but not enough for you to recover.

Your response to this needs to be Plan A for now, prepare for Plan B, and keep looking for proof of contact.

Even with no proof, Plan B is the response to a half-hearted and stagnating recovery attempt.

Ok, so they are still in contact but calling it "professional." That is really cute and all, but it is not NO CONTACT. If an alcholic just changes the name of his drinks to "business drinks" does that mean he is sober?

So what is being done about this "professional" contact?

I am a recovering alcoholic with 23 years sobriety. I think I will tell my H I am going to the bar to have some "business drinks." I wonder how far I will get with that ploy?

Famous Abe Lincoln quote:
"How many legs does a dog have?"
"Four."
"If you call his tail a leg, how many legs does a dog have?"
"Five."
"Wrong - he still has four. Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it one."

Following that phone call on Monday he sent an email to her reminding her that there is to be no contact. OK it was under pressure from me but he sent it and said it seems to be holding (if I believe what he says and he does seem honest - don't laugh! ) . He says he hasn't been in touch with her and will refuse all contact from her from now on. The problem for me is that he's not agreeing to it with enthusiasm and seems to have little energy left for me. A good friend said that she thinks he's too sure of me and is taking his time because he is taking it for granted that I will be there and will accept and forgive. I keep turning over thoughts in my head. I've just realised that he spent the night before our wedding anniversary with her and these kind of thoughts are killing me.

Well, honesty is not demonstrated by mere words from a wayward, but from ACTION. Liars and cheats often "honestly" pledge to do something, but that rarely means anything. Don't go by his words, go by his ACTIONS. You say he is honest yet here you are dealing with recent contact and wondering if he actually WILL end contact.

Don't expect honesty from an untrustworthy person, tully. That is foolish.

But there are no actions really, one way or the other. I think he is adhering to NC for the past 2 weeks apart from a blip on Monday when she rang but neither is he doing much for me. He is participating in family life but doesn't seem particularly repentant or willing to compensate.

Will he eventually realise how wrong he was and try to make it up to me or is this it? I am fairly sure that she will get in touch with him again but I have no idea how he will react. He says the last thing he wants is for her to get in touch, that he's acually afraid of the phone at work but he still seems to feel very sympathetic to her.

This was not just a blip - it was back to square one. That is assuming there was actually an interruption in contact.

Tully, I have been exactly where you are, and it is classic false recovery. You should be getting much better than you are, even from a fresh, foggy wayward who has just entered NC.

Plan A long enough to prepare your Plan B. That is my very best advice.

Thank you Neak. This is exactly what I wanted to know. I didn't know if things should be better than this at this stage or if it was me expecting too much too soon.
I think Plan A means being nice and tolerant so that he knows what he will lose when he does. Have I got that right? Does this mean that I'm not supposed to get angry if I discover more lies. For example he told me yesterday that they spent 2 days together at a conference in June but I checked out my diary and it was 4 days, the last day being the day before our anniversary. Does Plan A mean that I don't get annoyed about this?

No, not at all. It is normal to be angry, and I would worry if you weren't.

What Plan A does is give you a way to deal with that without LB's. You can express your anger in an appropriate way, rather than name-calling (no matter how justified the names are), without losing your temper, etc.

You should be nice, yes, but tolerant, no...in a way. You are not tolerant in that you calmly share what hurts you, and what you need to recover. You don't just let all his bad behavior slide, but you are expressing your boundaries, not enforcing them.

With Plan B, your actions enforce the boundaries you have been talking about.

"It hurts me when you continue to have any contact with the OW."
becomes
"When you are ready to commit to NC, I will be willing to consider recovering our marriage with you. In the meantime, do not contact me directly."

See the difference?

Have you read The Carrot and the Stick of Plan A?

Well, yes there are "ACTIONS," his action was to have contact with the OW. That is his ACTION.


You just said he was in contact 6 days ago and even emailed her afterwards. So he is not adhering to NC.

Until contact is really, really, really ended, this boat is not going anywhere.

tully, if he won't end contact, and I do mean "professional contact" :RollieEyes: then you should start making plans to get into Plan B. Plan A is supposed to last about 3-4 WEEKS for women. It is not supposed to be a way of life to accommodate cakeeating waywards.

Does your H respect his brother's opinion? Are they close? I would still reconsider informing MIL and FIL. Are his parents weak people? Now that your brother-in-law knows, perhaps he could be with MIL when you call (assuming the live close to one another.) I can tell you from my own experience that while my FWH KNEW he had screwed up beyond belief that it wasn't until he spoke to his mother that he REALLY felt the full scope of the devastation he had caused his family. Maybe it's because children want their parents to be proud of them...I dunno but his attitude was very different after his mom called him out of his deceit and betrayal. MIL was very disappointed and hurt but she was more than willing to do all she could for me, H, and her grandbabies.

Worst case scenario, if your M doesn't survive would you want OW anywhere near your children or being welcomed into the family if you could make that very difficult? You said OW has said she wanted to buy one of your children an outfit or something.

Even if my H and I divorced I was going to make it so that OW was known for the tramp she was. Told my MIL her name and all I knew of her. My MIL was FIRED UP that OW even dared to think that her skanky a$$ would ever have been welcomed into the family. If I died the day after exposing to MIL and my H was still in fogland, I have no doubt that my inlaws would have beat the crap out of OW if she ever showed her face at their door.


If? Don't chalk it up to misplaced gallantry on your WH's part. You've already stated that the only reason he's done anything you've asked is because you "made" him.

While I'm sure having OW far away is usually better, is your H still planning to travel to where she lives due to "professional" necessity? Will he have work related reasons to go there?

Thanks, Neak. In fact I have always said from day 1 that if he wanted to give our marriage a chance it was a nonnegotiable condition for me to cut all contact with her. He resisted this with a force that made me think he was an addict long before i discovered this site. It's over 6 weeks since I found out and it's only in the past week or so that he has come to accept that I will NEVER give in on this point. I have told him that if I discover a contact between them that he doesn't tell me about then I will consider that he has made his choice and I will immediately and without discussion leave him and take the children. I don't know if I handled the situation properly but I cannot bear the least contact between them. I am pretty sure that she has not given up (even if he thinks she has) and I don't know if our marriage will survive but last night there were glimmers of hope.

Melody and black raven, I crossed with you. Thanks for your comments.
My WH was supposed to work on a major project in the lab where she is going and it would have meant him being there 3 days per month during which time he planned to live with her. The very idea makes me sick. So much so that I hope I can get over all that he has done to me. I question the extent to which I can forgive.
I have insisted that he pull out of this project and he has agreed to do so but hasn't actually informed the lab yet.
In fact to explain all, I am Irish and he is French. We met in Ireland 20 years ago while he worked in a research lab in Trinity College. We moved to France 12 years ago because he couldn't get a permanent postion in Ireland. He continued to have a very strong scientific relationship with the head of physics there and they have published a lot of good papers together. This head wants my WH to replace him when he retires next year. My WH arranged for his OW to work in this lab with this man in a post-doc position until June of next year. I know this man very well and I know that he and his wife like me. He is an extremely difficult man however if he doesn't like someone and I know that if I told him that WH will not be able to replace him because of the presence of OW then he would do everything in his power to get rid of her and would make her life a misery.
The reason why I don't want to tell him now if that she couldn't or wouldn't go if I tell and I want her to leave. I have a strong suspicion that she won't go anyway because she has already refused two positions which would have brought her far away from WH and in this case she would really be going into the lion's den because she knows that I would have serious power over her if I want to use it if she contacts WH.
Sorry for going on for ages here but I just wanted to clarify.

Tuffy I haven't posted to you before, but thought I would post this. Don't know if you have seen it before. It may help you to understand all parts of plan A.


The Carrot and the Stick of Plan A

The carrot of Plan A


Meeting your wandering spouse's emotional needs.

Making "home" a warm and inviting place to be.

Placing emphasis on what has worked in the marriage.

Showing consistent self improvement in areas where previously lacking.

Stop lovebusting behaviors.

Communicating with a calm reassuring voice and relaxed body language, even in the center of a verbal storm created by the infidel.

Becoming the person any reasonable spouse would want to come home to.

Remaining open to the possibility of recovery.

Offering forgiveness and understanding.



The stick of Plan A


Exposing adultery where it matters most. Exposure that takes the form of a swift and sudden unexpected tsunami of truth.

Not appologizing for exposure or speaking the truth in a kind yet direct way.

Directly communicating the hurt and devastation that the affair has caused.

Not accepting blame for the infidel's choice to become adulterous.

Let the consequences of adultery and infidelity fall freely upon the heads of the adulterous.

Establishing boundaries that disallow the affair to effect children of the marriage, financal security of the marriage, and otherwise ruin innocent bystanders.

Standing up to infidelity as a beast that must be slayed for the good of the family.