I had one thought to make this clear to her. Instead of reacting to her choice I could prepare the papers and give them to her before she chooses. Given the way she is acting I think it may push her away but maybe I am wrong. I am thinking I could write into the filing why I am doing this to make it clear that the movie is the last straw and not the reason.

I am struggling because this all feels too slow and one moment and then lightning fast the next.

I would be very careful about ultimatums.

Yes I understand what her choice represents, and you already have your get-out-of-jail-free card, but... you really DON'T want to have the movie be the hill you die on, do you?

If you are seeing any improvement at all, and if she is seeking professional help... and if these women aren't in a category that requires NC, then I would reconsider allowing her some access to her friends, the people she feels safe with.

I wasn't talking about drawing your kids into conversation, I was talking about drawing *her* into conversation. From what you are writing here, I am picturing a woman who is so ill-at-ease with her own kids that she feels too shy to join the conversation. She may not know how to break the ice. She may be craving the company of her friends because she can relax around them.

I understand your reasons, truly I do; and I'm not saying you are being abusive; but I do want to mention that one way to be abusive is to prevent someone from talking to friends and/or family. I *know* you aren't doing anything of that level. Just possibly a reason to allow her some time with her friends.

Jayne,

I'm not saying no time with friends, I'm saying no time with friends during family time. She can spend from 8:30 until 3:30, 5 days a week with friends if she wants.

I'm not getting enough back from her, I know this is hard for her but it doesn't hold a candle to what I am doing and what I have been doing. The movie is like a" f**k you" to me and the children.

I'm going to let her know that is what it means to me and then I'm giving her the papers tonight. That way it can be real to her.

It almost sounds as though she is still a little foggy.

I'm almost 100% there has been no A for a long time. Just spoiled brat behavior, which I allowed. I know I'm moving fast but you guys can't see what my kids are going through.

6years,

If the kids are going through so much, and she really would rather be with the "girls" than with you and the kids, then really divorce may well be the best thing. I suspect it will make her happier. It won't make you happier, and it won't make the kids happier. However, perhaps divorce will provide some stability to their lives and yours.

I would have a talk with her. It really isn't about the movie, it is about choices. She needs to understand how you see her choices and what it tells you. IF she decides she still would rather see the movie, give her money for popcorn. And then make your own decisions.

I agree with everyone else, NO ULTIMATUMS!!!! Simply explain your feelings your interpretation of what is going on, your view of what it does to the kids. Let her explain why she feels the movie's is more important than these things. Once you know that, then you can make decisions.

I have always said that when I came to a hard decision, it turned out not to be a decision at all. The data was always very clear as to what I should do, now I could ignore data, but following it has served me well. I recommend that path to you.

God Bless,

JL

Do not give her money to move out. If she does not want to work on the marriage and wants it over. Then by not funding her single life style will help her see the reality of her decisions.

I would protect the kids at all costs. And if they're seeing her refuse to work on being their mother - a normal mother - I'd be voting to send her packing. To her mother's at least. Kids come first.

While I do truly believe she has a detachment disorder, which kind of gives her a break - it's not something you can turn off at will - I also believe this, which Jayne said:

As someone said about the blind person, interacting with the rest of you must seem like being thrown into a foreign exchange student situation, to her. I say that because of the 'close knit' comment. I think she truly, really doesn't feel like she belongs with you. I think part of that feeling evolved post-A, in part because of the A, but also in part because of your reaction to her A and your and your son's treatment of her post-A.

The worst part of it is that she didn't KNOW you knew. All she knew was that the A ended, she found herself 'stuck' with you guys (you know what I mean), but the 'you guys' she came back to wasn't the same. It was hostile, wary, not inviting, determined to make a life without her.

Add to that that she's lived a privileged adult life, as you said, one in which she has never really suffered, never had to push herself, never worried about success or failure...honestly, I'm not sure she knows HOW to work hard to keep the marriage going. Think about it. It's like a college student whose parents always hired tutors and nannies and stepped in when the kid got in trouble so they never suffered their own consequences, and once they get in college, away from the parents' support system, they're expected to perform. They simply have never been taught how. They don't even know the steps involved in performing, so how can they perform?

Also, y'all's situation is one with many layers, many sources and inputs. It's tragic, actually. But there it is. If she hadn't...if you hadn't...if POS AP hadn't...if the kids hadn't...Thank goodness for her mother! But putting this all on her shoulders seems a little cruel, because part of the blame for her having trouble at this point, as you admitted, is that you moved forward with the kids and gave her the cold shoulder. But because you never spoke about it, it was insanely subtle. And slow, like watching a glacier move. I doubt a single one of you ever knew it was happening.

But back to your dilemna, I'm tempted to say that maybe tonight you can sit her down at the table, before she goes out, if she goes out, and say:

"I know that cutting you off from your friends cold turkey is no different than a drug addict. It's hard. And I don't want you to stop seeing your friends. But I DO want you to stop seeing them when you should be with us. I'm going to allow you this ONE night with the girls without kicking you out. Only because we're still in the throes of understanding all this.

HOWEVER, if you want to remain in this house, and enjoy the benefits of my money, any girl time will in the future be done during school hours, where it doesn't affect us. Any deviation from that, and you'll come home to find all your possessions moved to your mother's house."

That's what I would do.

Catperson, JL,

I don't know if she knew I was aware of the A or not. During the A, I would tell her that I knew about the A and she would deny it and threaten D if I brought it up again. So I stopped bringing it up and basically shut her out. I thought it was the best I could do, maybe she would have left then if I had pushed it.

Since the movie is tomorrow and since we always have an extra nice dinner prepared by the children, I'm not letting her off the hook. I will sit down and explain what it means and that I have no objection to lunches with her friends. I have said it before but maybe she is not remembering that.

This needs to resolve quickly, Sam is furious about my attempts and D16 (Rachael) is also very against it. The others get their hopes up and then are sad when it doesn't work well.

My own heart is hardening against her pretty quickly now, so I think there is not much time on that front as well.

That's ok, 6YL. You don't owe her anything, especially the way she's acting. I was just trying to find a way for you to keep your options open, because it sounded like you were starting to panic about crossing the line, you know?

You know what you're comfortable with. And like I said, kids come first. If it's hurting them to watch her act like an idiot, cut your losses. She can always work on it on her own and you can start dating again, maybe even get married again later. Who knows?

The only caveat I have is that if she does move out, do NOT pay for it! If ANYTHING right now, she needs to learn how to earn her own keep. It might be the greatest gift you can give her.

Catperson,

I do feel kind of in a panic. I'm actually pretty sure that the right thing for everyone, probably even her, is to D. I'm feeling like a failure because I'm not able to pull this off and I think I am hurting everyone so I won't fail. She really only wants to be a good mom in title not actions, and that ship sailed long ago. The kids are getting hurt by me opening all of this.

We are going to have a very frank talk tonight about the future only, no accusations about the past etc. At the end I'll give her the D filing, and tell her to think about it. We can't file until Monday anyway. This is not about saving the M so if we do the D then I am going to provide her some money to live on, not ongoing just a lump sum. I don't have to by our agreement but, and I think she always has known this, that is not me.

I can live with a lump sum. Heck, I wish my H would give me one if we split up, lol. If you do, recommend she use it to find a job.

Have you had a good frank talk with your kids lately? I guarantee they are thinking about this nonstop, even if they won't admit it. Let them know what you're thinking, too.

I think this is going way too fast.

If you took away the 10 years that you stuffed everything and treat this situation as a typical A and typical R, then you are going too fast.

You want her to decide to change, you do not want to give ultimatums. Any WS given this type of ultimatum would normally walk. Why would they want to come back to a M where they feel controlled? Or a M where there is no joint agreements? You don't want to try to recover with a person that suddenly, after 10 years, is forced to change their habits. This causes major resentment. You have to realize that she may be feeling like she is being punished for something she did 10 years ago, not yesterday. And this situation you helped cause by shoving it under the rug.

Time out 6.

I don't recall ever seeing this type of advice given to a new BS who's WS has decided to TRY to R. It is a much more delicate process and it's going to take time. You want her to WANT to stay and work on things, but it won't happen overnight. You seem to be looking for ANY excuse to complete your initial plan. Slow down. I know it's hard, but is a restored M your goal or not?

I think you have to explain WHY you feel like you do. You have to get to the "I" statements. She's probably confused and doesn't understand how going out with GFs has anything to do with her A. It would look like a control issue to most people.

Tell her how you feel and why.

I just can't help but feel like you are pushing her away to get through this as fast as possible and not really caring what the outcome is. You see that your 6 year wait can be shortened and you like the idea of it being done.

Just try to give her a chance to UNDERSTAND what you need and what the kids need. This is all pretty foreign to her. She thought everything was just kosher for the last ten years.

And how is the situation worse for the kids now? What are they being witnesses to?

6, from where I stand(and it's just my opinion) you don't really want to recover. And I can understand why you wouldn't. Any BS has that right. She had an A. But you helped create this situation as it is right now by not addressing her A years ago.

This is going to take a heck of a lot of time to unravel. And all M policies that Dr Harley has established should be followed.

I totally agree.

It seems you are setting her up for failure. What happened to your commitment to stick around for 6 more years, "no matter what"? What happened to giving her some *time* to make drastic changes in her life?

We aren't talking about NC here. That's already been established. We are talking about breaking through years of being ostracized by her own family.

On second thought, maybe you should cut her loose. I can't imagine much things worse than sitting at a dinner table where everyone else was laughing and enjoying each other and hating me.

Jayne Michele;

I thought I was clear that I do not want this M, I am trying my best for the children and they are being hurt by my attempts. They see me trying to include W and then W not really wanting to be part of the picture. I did not ask her to spend so much time away from the family that was what she wanted. Now it has happened and before I wanted it to that those choices are having their effect.

During our talk tonight she described what she wants. She wants to say she is sorry for the A, have me get over that and then go back to how things were before. She says she has liked our more adventurous sex life so she wants to keep that as well. She does not want me making demands on her. So my 6 year plan is out the window, largely because I took the advice from people on this site. Now I am on a different road, at least I found out that the children knew about the A and were bitter about it. So I can work on that and I am thankful to all of you that I have that chance. My commitment was to do what is best for the children and this is not working.

I made mistakes. I did a Plan A for 10 years and made my W become spoiled brat. In the process I hurt my children and destroyed any desire I have for this M. She likes the way her life was and really has no intent of changing that. I'm not trying to punish her, but we want very different things. I think that my actions are controlling because I want her to be something she is not.

Tonight we talked about D, calmly. She thinks it might be the best thing for her as well as best for me. She thinks that then she can work with the children in her own way and she thinks she will be happier alone. She thought the lump sum would be enough for her to get herself going but that I didn't owe it to her. She had two questions. 1) Would I be telling the children the things she said in the letters? I said no, that would stay between us. The D papers will say adultery as my cause and I will talk to the children about the A and I think she should as well.
2) Did I think we could still date and have sex? I also said no to this. She cried about that and I actually cried a little myself. I told her I need some time away from her.

She can see the kids when she wants but I want full custody. She agreed because she doesn't want the responsibility right now. The children are bitter toward her but they do not hate her. I don't hate her either

Does she even have a clue as to how she plans to repair her relationship with the kids....especially after divorcing and then living the single life??? Does she even care?

I would ask her what does she think the kids think of her and what type of person and mother she is or has been. Then I would ask her how would she go about changing that perception. It can be done....but only with a long term and single minded focus on the kids and changing herself.

The question is does she have what it takes to do it. By your posts and what you wrote about how self centered she is...the answer is NO!!

Flynn,

I doubt she know how to fix her relationship with the children, but I don't like how I am acting to make her fix it my way. Also I am hurting everyone involved. She is happy today, she already called her friends to say she is doing the movie night and that they can have dinner after. I'm disappointed in that response but I don't know what to do.

I called Sam this morning to tell him what we are thinking, he is happy but I think it will hit him later. I'm going to discuss it with the others over dinner tonight and Sam is going to keep quiet until then. So far it seems like I am the only person who is unhappy. I realize that it is probably best but I'm really feeling like I screwed up so many things.

Any suggestions on how to discuss this are welcome. They already know about the A etc, so I was thinking I would just mention it briefly and then move on to the fact that I'll still be here all the time and that W is going to try to fix her relationship with them her own way. I will encourage them to give her a chance.

6YL

Your WW got to have an affair.

She got to ditched her responsibilities as a mom.

She has gotten to live as she has been a single person all these years.

She has gotten to live without boundary's for over ten years.

WW will not accept boundary's now.

Your WW felt that she gives you lots of SF then she should be able to maintain the
status quo. She does not want the same type of marriage that you want at this time.

If you feel the need to divorce then do so. Do not underwrite her single life style.
I would not give her any money. Let her go out and live the single life. It is after all what she wants. When you are single you have to support yourself.

I assume you have two cars. let her take the one you would rather not keep. Put it in her name. Pay for six months insurance in her name. You gave WW the means to find a place to live , a job, and go and do what ever else she wants to do.

I agree. PLEASE do not give her money, except maybe the insurance. I say this not so that you can get revenge, but because she is acting like a 15 year old. The ONLY way she will ever grow - and possibly become the mother your kids need - is to get a full-blown dose of reality in her face. Rock bottom and all.

You will be doing everyone a favor if you don't give her money.

And this:
Is so very very sick.

It suddenly struck me that this sitch in some ways resembles aw3's sitch.

Maybe you can get some ideas and some comfort in reading the thread by abandonedwith3kids. His wife totally lost it though, more so than yours, and never stopped the A. Until she moved on to the next, that is. She also moved out of the house.

The good news is, aw3 went to Plan B, and after a few hiccups went totally dark - at which point his life and his kids' lives began improving. He's happy and at peace now.

I'll bump his thread for you.