I can...the same type of relationship that my FWH had to have before he felt comfortable getting TM's from his boss about where did he want his whipped cream, and water running over his boss' mammary glands.

Assume it's been sexual and you won't be caught as badly off guard once you find out it was.

I would be very surprised if your WW actually gave up her job at this point (happily surprised, but surprised), and Plan A/Plan B is going to be your response when she refuses.

Hi Neak

Cool - I am clear on what Plan A and Plan B is and I am committed to it.

In a strange twist to the story my wife is actually doing her bosses job for 6 weeks starting this week, while he is away. That at least gives some space to plan an appropriate approach (or more, departure !)

Will post an update on progress, if only for my own sanity.

Clarity is a wonderful thing

Thanks
H

You need to tell OMW what you know.

Your gut feelings appear to be dead on.

NC for WW and OM. WW needs a new job.

Hi TheRoad

The timing of your comments is good as this was the major topic of our discussion tonight.

A lot of stuff makes sense now, the fog, the denial, etc.

I should point out my wife thinks :
1. my one-sided explanation of what has occurred has tainted the replies I have read and am acting on
2. the affair at work (or whatever we choose to call it) is nowhere near as serious as made out on this thread.
3. I am now brainwashed and have latched onto a radical approach to something which is not that big a deal

I am usually a pretty practical and independent person and it would be unusual for me to follow a 'plan', but I believe in seeking the advice of others who have learned and experienced similar challenges. That's why I appreciate this site so much at this challenging point in our lives.

I hope my wife sees the situation for what it is, eventually. She had a session with the counsellor today on her own and I have a session with him tomorrow.

I couldn't stop crying this afternoon so my wife came to ask me what was wrong (which was, I guess, the obvious). Despite the crying (!) I am so much stronger at the moment - I read a lot of MB stuff on negotiation and avoiding angry outbursts, and to concentrate on being part of the solution. I confirmed to my wife I love her, have trust in her and believe we can save our marriage.

She does not accept either of the actions :
1. Tell his wife about the emotional affair
2. Find other employment

She says if our marriage fails all she has is her secure job. I confirmed I would never leave her or our daughter needing anything, but the conversation kept coming back to a decisive "I WILL NOT LEAVE MY JOB".

I said the job is insignificant in the grander scheme of things and reconfirmed my utmost desire to make our marriage survive over all other outside influences. I said I felt she was in a fog if she felt what her boss says to her is not damaging to our marriage or his.

She said I was in a fog and was not acting normally. She said we have a bunch of other problems in our marriage that need attention (we agree on this, but my focus is on removing the first threat and concentrating on each other from then on). A heap of the previous arguments have been things said in the "State of Conflict" that I think will improve markedly once we learn to negotiate properly.

She said there is no way she will participate in a joint conversation with the boss and his wife, but if I want to approach them it is up to me. I am committed to Plan A, for a whole host of reasons. If she won't join me, I will be meeting with both the other parties to explain my concerns. To me it is an insurance policy against possibly losing my family in later years.

Tonight I have seen more evidence of lunchtime appointments between my wife and her boss that each stretch over a couple of hours, that have happened throughout most of this year. Also some more inappropriate comments from him to her that are, well, accepted by my wife.

I committed tonight to first discussing with the counsellor and not making any rash decisions. I will no longer get angry and say anything that pops into my head (I had made that decision today, for myself). I was the only one in our conversation tonight who did not raise their voice or swear, which is a pleasant change (!) and will remain that way. I constantly reaffirmed I love my wife and I want to save our marriage.

I have all this stuff eating me up but I am determined to be strong and be at least one person who puts our marriage ahead of all else. I realise it might not work out, till Plan B maybe kicks in, (and maybe Plan B works, or maybe it won't work at all).

I am starting a letter to my daughter to explain what is happening, along the lines of the thread I saw earlier to a guy's 4 year old son, which killed me to read. I hope I never have to ask her to read it in some future years, but I would like to capture how I feel now and how much I want to save this family so I can explain I honestly tried, if Plan B doesn't work out.

I will ask my wife again to read this thread and hopefully post her point of view (up to her). There is no doubt we have both become lost and screwed up what was once a wonderful marriage. I don't want any secrets and I am happy for there to be a different point of view expressed - it certainly can't hurt at this point.

Thank you again all, for bearing with my / our situation

Cheers
H

Ask your wife to submit to a polygraph exam. If she passes the exam, she gets to keep her job so long as EVERYONE begins acting professional.

The wife of the boss needs to be told what is happening. It doesn't matter that your wife doesn't agree...do it anyway.

Is this a large employer???? If it is, contact the HR department regarding the unprofessional nature of both your wife's and her bosses communications. This will not be tolerated.

Give your wife 1 chance and ONLY 1 chance to come clean here. Either she leaves the job or she submits to a polygraph exam. I would bet the house she has already had a physical affair.

And don't listen your wife about her perceptions of your behaviors. All WS say and act the same way. She is following the script line for line.

She is a cheater and should not be trusted.

And DO NOT bother with a counselor. They have horrible track records with this and are more likely to screw this up. Unless you can find a MB therapist in your area, I suggest a call to the Harley's instead.

It's called SEX. Bet on it. ACT on it.

The only thing tainted here is that your wife can't see straight and is trying to save her own butt. A married woman talking to a married man at work about his erections for her...yeah sounds like innocent funny haha stuff to me. :RollieEyes:




There is no trusting your wife right now. She is lost in denial and will give you half truths and downplay everything in hopes that you believe her and let it go. Waywards will swear on a stack of bibles, their childrens' heads, etc all the while lying without even flinching.


Your wife is already trying to guilt. Ignore and expose.



Yep. No job is worth your family.



Print copies of everything before you WW deletes them.


Good to hear you are calm. It will make it harder for WW to make it out like you are a screaming lunatic. She is angry that she will be exposed. Expect more of this from her.

I respectfully disagree. She should quit the job today and never go back if her marriage and family are the most important things in her life.


Totally agree.


Polygraph isn't a bad idea at all. She still needs to quit the job and have NC with the boss. She DID have an EA with him. That is an affair. As long as there is ANY KIND OF CONTACT your marriage is doomed.


What he said. She is in the fog big time.

If there is any affair she should leave her job. In the absolutely small chance his wife is just not appropriate on workplace boundaries and has no feelings for the boss, I would say that staying at that job is no different than working somewhere else. Bottom line, the BH needs the truth. She most likely has had an affair that is either just emotional (doubt it) or has developed into a physical affair (most likely).

I agree 100% that if ANY affair has taken place...she needs to leave the workplace now.

IMO, she is GASLIGHTING you. That's what she wants you to think. What's likely actually going through my mind is something along the lines of "OH ^%&*%^*!!! How do get my H to look away while I still get to do the nasty with my boss?"

Also, STOP trying to REASON with your WW, simply because you cannot REASON with a WW: the only thing they're concerned about is their self-interests and getting their fix from the A, and they will say or do anything to achieve that.

So, here's what you need to do:

1. Expose the A to OMW. Include copies of the inappropriate messages. First impressions count - you want to make this exposure as effective as it could be. Consider that the OM may have already tried to gaslight the OMW into thinking nothing inappropriate has happened.

2. Expose the A to HR. Include information about those long lunch hours - the company would love to find out how a member of managment is misusing his time.

3. Implement the best Plan A that you can at this time, and that will include avoiding trying to "reason" with your WW or engaging her in long emotional talks that make you look weak and desperate.

4. Do NOT ask your WW to read your threads here while she's still in her A!! That's like being at war and sharing your strategy for winning with your enemy!

H,
"I fear it might (even accidentally) lead to something else ? Is this lack of trust, or this kind of 'control' over something she would prefer to do, more damaging, in that she might feel less trusted and valued and therefore even worse things happen ?"

This should be your greatest fear...it has happened to so many of us. never intentional but happens nonetheless. I never would have expected my WW to cross the line, but it happened.

I also agree with aussiewife:

"that nothing would ever happen - she only has them as friends. Doesn't see any issue with that."

This is exactly what my WW said and I believed until I found out the truth. Humans are fallible and often fail.

ITA.

And did she look at you with a straight face when she said she "automatically" signs all her email "Love, x"?? I've never heard such crap in my whole life!! Who in the world sends WORK email and signs them "love"??!!

I like how Dr. Phil says this: "if you're doing something that you wouldn't do with your spouse standing right next to you, then you shouldn't be doing it." SHE'S HAVING AN AFFAIR RIGHT UNDER YOUR NOSE

Herbaceous,

I hate to say it, but I haven't seen anyone else come right out with it:

Your wife has already cheated on you. PHYSICALLY. I'd bet a paycheck on it.

If what you say is true, I can confidently say I KNOW it.

Nothing in your story is uncommon...I've read it all before. It's quite typical, actually.

They've been sleeping together, probably for quite some time. Of course she'll never admit it without hard evidence.

I agree that without a confession, a polygraph test is the way to go. If your wife balks at the idea, the test will be unnecessary, as you will already have your answer.

Hi all

I haven't forgotten this thread. I come back here to try to clarify my thoughts often, but also look to other places to try to understand what I believe has happened in my wife's life at work.

I turned a corner 2 days ago after again reading the negotiation skills and 3 states of mind stuff. I no longer get angry and raise my voice, and constantly reaffirm my goal is positive and is to save this marriage. That's helped my stress levels a lot. I put myself back on medication for stress and anxiety (prescribed after my dad's death) which won't have started to have an effect yet but certainly won't hurt .

OK, so where have we got to ? Both of us met with the counsellor seperately, and we meet him again at the end of this week together. His advice to me was that Plan A and Plan B may be a good strategy, but it's a little early to make big deicisions and we should take a few weeks to work through things. The upside of this is the guy involved is away for 6 weeks, so I can't do much during this period till I can arrange a face-to-face with the parties needed.

My wife acknowledges there has been inappropriate communication between her and the guy for a number of years (mainly innuendo in emails, 'love and kisses' etc.) This however became more regular when they moved offices and ended up working closer together. She also guarantees the only 'physical' activity has been holding hands while drunk after a work party, which happened walking between venues and in a bunch of people who also held hands. The other people mentioned (who I also know) did not have that past emotional connection (one person is our friend who met the guy that same night).

The 2 hour meetings I have seen in her calendar she says never went ahead, with the exception of one of them being a coffee together. I don't feel I have clarity on these issues and we need to discuss it further, because it doesn't sound logical.

When the timing is right I am going to ask my wife about the polygraph test as I think it is a positive step for both of us in terms of the proof we both need to form a foundation for future discussions.

Just wanted to let everyone know the comments and advice are much appreciated, and I am moving forward, albeit is a slightly 'customised' way to allow for advice from the counsellor and some time without the other person in place affecting discussions.

Many thanks
H

Not to beat a dead horse, but this is the clincher.

If she'd said none of them happened, it would sound ridiculous, so she throws you a bone and tells you one meeting did happen...but only for 2 hours of coffee drinking.

Of course...I can't tell you the number of times I've kicked back and enjoyed my favorite java...

FOR 2 FRIGGIN' HOURS?!?!

You should insist on a polygraph test...those with nothing to hide, hide nothing...but prepare yourself. You are likely going to discover that your wife has been involved in a full-blown affair with her boss for quite some time. Maybe years.

Wait a few weeks? For what?! Until you get good and anxious/depressed and can't deal with it? The stress/anxiety of the unknown hanging over your head is INCREDIBLY difficult. IMO even moreso than dealing with the TRUTH.

No offense, but I think your counselor is way off base on this one.

What the heck does that mean?


An EA affair for YEARS and they have only held hands once while she was drunk?


There's a reason bullsh&t doesn't sound logical.


When is the timing going to be right? After she and her boss have devised a new way to hide their affair? She not leaving her job, she doesn't want to tell OMW anything, and you are trying to be the nice guy and believe your wife. Unbelievable. I wish you luck because you are going to need it.

Herb:

Your WW is deep into this A.

It's physical. 2 hour lunchs?

It's amazing what I could do with an HOUR. And she had TWO!

My A went on for 4.5 years. It was an office A and many of the people that I worked with, never suspected. She was part-time, so we had alot of flexibility, and opportunity, but we HID so well. My BW didn't really suspect until 3.5 years in, that's how well OW and I hid it.

Call the OMW today. Tell her that you never realized how far this thing had gone. And then ask her, "What do you know?" and let her talk.

If WW has been telling you that OMW is emotionally unstable, I would tell you "OF COURSE" her WH is gaslighting her too. And keeping HER unbalanced, just like your WW is doing with you. ANd, you wouldn't think that OM would be telling your WW that his BW was really a terrific and wonderful person do you?

If OM is gone for 6 weeks, now is an excellent time for nuclear exposure. OMW, and his workplace, in particular. Others, as need be.

The polygraph? I would insist on it. If she's telling the truth, no problem. If she is NOT that heavily involved (she did "just hold hands") then still not a problem. However, if she has been boinking him for the past two years like I suspect, then it WILL be a problem. So call a local lie detector office and get one scheduled. And tell her she needs to go. Take the afternoon off to take her. Take the afternoon off just to have her TALK to you before the test.

You can win this. Start fighting with both hands.

LG

Thanks all

I do appreciate your comments and I understand you might think I am losing some resolve, but I'm not. I just want to approach this in a way I can get the most input from my wife, and know that if / when we address this situation the other issues affecting our marriage have a chance to be solved. I believe that is what the counsellor is suggesting (as there is a bunch of other stuff that has come out that he needs to develop an understanding of).

I share the feeling that it is no wonder the OMW is unstable - I would say she has seen and heard a lot more (possibly with my wife and with others) to cause her to mistrust him. If how I am feeling is how she has felt for years, I am surprised she has survived at all

As the guy is currently not in her workplace and she isn't otherwise seeing him (something I will clarify for sure today) I don't have a problem with taking some more time.

I totally agree about the polygraph because that is a method of proving where we are starting now is a base of total honesty.

More news when I have some - thanks all
H