Luna,

I say yes. I believe that Jennifer would tell you to do this in the form of a letter. If you can handle the rejection should it occur, then do it. In fact, if there is rejection, it may very well help you to finally let it go. After all of this time, he should surely know whether or not he wants to give up his family for her. And if he still does, then Luna there is nothing else that you can do and you would be harming yourself to still keep trying.

One question though. If he does want to come back, can you deal with it? Can you go through recovery? There will probably be broken NC, withdrawl, etc. Look at what SL went through. Are you prepared for that possibility. Can you picture your WH back at home with you and how you will relate to each other, how you will deal with the fallout of all of this, the triggers etc. I'm sure it won't be easy Luna.

A lady came into my shop a few days ago and was a friend of someone I know. She said that she knew what I was going through and offered support. Her H is dead now, but did this to her. He came back 5 years later. I asked why she took him back and she explained that no one else could offer her the history (children, memories etc).

Then, another person I know told me about a couple that she knew where the WH came back 5 years later too. In that case the WH was truly remorseful and has bent over backwards to help her heal. That OW went to jail and is now out and trying to get the H back again.

My own Aunt and Uncle - again remarried after 5 years. Uncle found out his OW wasn't the one.

Not sure why I thought of these stories. I guess that the 5 year thing seemed to be a theme here. It seems that the A's that don't fall apart at 2 years make it to 5 then fall apart. Surely after 5 years the fantasy has long been gone and reality sets in. They then realize that they have just another M with all of the same issues (and more) than the first.

Anyway, just some questions. They are questions that I float around in my own mind too.

Hi Luna -

Thanks for your post on my thread. I can see how you would feel the need to send that type of letter/e-mail to your WH. I could see myself wanting to do the same thing.....

You are at least letting him know the door is still open. So, do you feel like since you are going through the D steps that your WH believes the door has closed?

You and DS's take care!!!

Kim

Hi CL,



Actually, CL, it's done...I DID send WS the ONE question/sentence (yea, I know, I am usually quite WORDY ) ... without any real expectations... except as I said.... I NEEDED to put it out there, and I think for a WS, the shorter the better.

I know some will say.... it COULD encourage WS to continue to be wayward because I am letting him KNOW that the door is still open.... but I figured it was IMPORTANT for me TO DO just THAT.... so I won't have any REGRETS for not having been HONEST enough about it.



...I can't say I am trying anymore....it's more about REASSURING myself that there is no misunderstanding....and no 'ifs or buts' about it...as I am asking WS to CONFIRM his choice to want to be parents to our boys 'separately'.....just so OP can be in HIS LIFE!

...you see, CL, both WS and I have issues with 'conflict avoiding'... to avoid what I am not sure? fear of rejection, punishment, disapproval.. and that is why, for me, it's more a question of 'fearing the fear and do it anyways'.... WHATEVER the response/non-response, it can't be any worse than what I have already 'survived'!

...it may be a lame question for many here....but this was not EASY for me to do...however, given our R and our history, WS KNOWS I am asking him 'to dot the Is', knows it's my way of 'tiding things up', getting READY to move on...

...which is why, I don't EXPECT a response (WS hoping to keep his options open?)....what I do want to know is: will he firmly PROCLAIM, as he did, that OP is his 'soulmate'? If not....it does mean....there are major 'cracks' in laland, for sure! ....however, Luna's time has also run out and 'friendly co-parenting' is nowhere in sight (because this was WS's cake-eating plan)

... inspite of all this, WS may well to choose 'TO PASS'...in the face of the EFFORT a re-committment to family entails....and honestly, I wouldn't blame him!

....an attempt M recovery after an affair has to be similar to 'jumping off the cliff' and hope to G-d you survive the Fall!



CL...that's another thing I am trying to learn.... to cross bridges IF and WHEN I get to them..... ALL I know for NOW...is that I would not REFUSE a chance to put my 'family back together'....IF WS is WILLING to accept the challenge of N/C with OP.... not look at WHAT it would take nor the RISKS involved... because that would be trying to GUESS the future... which as we are trying to learn here... is OUT OF OUR CONTROL... and, more importantly, NOT SCARE MYSELF OFF! :RollieEyes:


I feel pretty certain (maybe just as much as Believer), that affairs are doomed from the start...or doomed to be a R that continually leaves a 'sour taste in your mouth' somehow.... the big unknown, I think, is the WHEN.... as an affair's life can be 'prolonged' out of...spite, shame, pride, not wanting to make the effort.....even to one's death bed!


Thank you, CL, I do come here counting on your input and your questions...and I appreciate yours....because in affairland...any initiative can have PAINFULLY costly consequences! :crosseyedcrazy: ...and so, any help on what MIGHT be ahead is welcomed....

Hi Kim,


Thanks for dropping by....

What I think NOW, is that Plan D will not necessarily CLOSE the door to WS, but it will OPEN it up to 'others' (...and WS has shown no concern about this...for all I know, WS may even welcome it as it will provide possible relief from...GUILT...and a sense of OBLIGATION for my well-being)

...right NOW, the door is being kept open ONLY for WS!....I need to let WS know, that unless he shows some interest NOW in M recovery, AFTER Plan D he will lose the 'special status' (again, WS may not even care...and this may only be important for ME to communicate)!

...WS wanted two women to answer his needs, with Luna being assigned the 'parent' role via 'friendly co-parenting'....when forced to CHOOSE between M recovery of OP, WS chose the illusion.... of the 'potentially' perfect R with 'soulmate' OP

...NOW, even inspite of some OBVIOUS reality checks, WS may STILL consider OP to be LESS of a risk than M recovery with BS! :RollieEyes:

...and particularly when reality checks can be blamed on BS's lack of cooperation...and give rise to feelings of ANGER, DISAPPOINTMENT, PAIN...(Plan B comes in handy to help protect BS to at least not be a DIRECT target)

...as I often say, I don't envy WSs.....their rollercoaster ride has challenges of its own....and the bottom line...no matter how you look at it, sooner or later, I think, it will be in the RED

Update.

Oye!

Even though I clearly communicated to WS, a week or so ago, that mediation session dates would wait until I am back from visiting sick dad...

...but that WS could go ahead and arrange to pick up ANYTHING remaining of HIS stuff at the house (including all furniture items he had before we met), provide a list of any additional items he wanted in terms of furniture considered 'marital assets'(in so doing, remove HIS very high estimates were I to keep it all), and INCLUDING whatever was being currently stored in the basement.

In his last email re DS12, he added... that he was waiting for possible mediation dates to move forward with Plan D, and MY list of what I wanted to keep re furniture items.

So... I decided that I could either get aggravated, frustrated, feel pressured, or whine about it.....

...I opted for sending WS a 'gentle' reminder ... making things clearER about what HE could do to move 'things' ahead, should HE have the time....

...and for now, it appears WS has decided to NOT answer the question I put to him earlier on (asking, more or less, if there were times he regreted his decision)...

I wasn't really expecting an answer. My intention was so that WS ask and answer the question...for HIMSELF...

...what is unusual is WS not jumping at the chance to proclaim his love for OP, or invariably remind me that he had found his soulmate

Update.

I was going off to meet a friend last night...film then supper.

...when I spotted in my neighbourhood from afar...OP?

I am glad I was TOO far to be seen....it WAS OP, when I saw a more familiar figure, WS, join her. No, they did not see me... and, yes, it was a LOT less painful than other WS 'spotting'.... (mostly because THEY did not see me...so, less demanding on the 'chest out, chin up' department!)

...and glad to see IT did not spoil my evening, which I enjoyed spent 'catching up' with a friend I have not seen in awhile.

....and, yes...CL's nomination for the being the 'longest in Plan B' is well deserved.... guess the 'drummer' playing 'my tune' is overly RUSTY and needs more practice than most! :RollieEyes:

{{{{{{{{{{{[Luna}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

You certainly are a most graceful and giving woman. I'm in awe of your strength and level of understanding in this situation. It really never ceases to amaze me.

This one statement really hit me hard. As it was WH who said when he left me that he was tired of putting other people first and he wanted to put himself first. I clearly remember asking him what he was teaching his children and he told me he was standing up for his truths.

The truths that he has no desire for me and wants something more than his best friend.

I find myself in a place today, why would I wait, put life on hold for a man who has no desire for me and wants to live in his truths.

I find myself more and more wondering if we aren't the stupid ones for holding out hope.... or giving them chance after chance to figure it out and come home.

Hi Queenie,

Given some observations, this is what I believe....

WSs, far from living their 'truth', want to 'buy into' their own lies...to justify answering needs at the expense of others, doing a lot of damage to Rs in the process... (because if that were true, Queenie, all BSs would be involved in affairs after D-day!)... and which does work...as a short-term fix!

Yes...I do believe we are responsible for finding ways to answer our needs...I also believe that doing so 'in a responsible way' and 'in harmony' with committments we have willingly chosen to take on, also happens to be a NEED, requiring at times... EFFORT! (and why possibly WSs choose A...perceiving it to be LESS of an effort with HIGH returns, at least, short-term)

OTOH, I find Plan B an example of an honest, responsible and respectful way for BS to communicate to WS needs, boundaries, a path back home, and terms (N/C) for protecting BS from 'wayward ways'.

Plan B offers BS some much needed 'time' to heal wounds, identify needs, find healthier ways to communicate and answer needs (other than LOVEBUSTING!), listen to messages our emotions have been trying to pass on...for ages! (rather than avoiding them) about met/unmet needs....and, if need be, move on to Plan D!...and YES, all this requires a lot of EFFORT short-term...with hopefully long-term benefits (as Rivertam's recent update thread suggests).... which I do not find to be the case for WS!


That is a question you need to answer for yourself, Queenie... given your WSs choices and your attempts at M recovery... you have earned your right to 'move on', if it's what you want to do....

What is suggested, for one's own good, is that decisions NOT be ONLY: REACTION-based, EMOTIONALLY-based, or a means to CONTROL others....and to wait until... heart and mind are in sync!


Queenie, you can CHOOSE to hope and give chances, if you want... or NOT!.....what I see you doing is use it to 'beat yourself up' ... when what I think you may need to give yourself NOW....is BIG HUGE HUGS like I am doing!

QUEENIE

Luna,

Sorry about the OP sighting. I'm just glad that you handled it so well.

I've never seen the OP in my case. I know that she drove here from her state to look at our house and my business, so I sometimes wonder if she has been near me without my knowledge. I'm sure she is as curious about me as I am about her. Of course WH has told her that I'm some sort of monster freak. He tried to scare her from contacting me so told her that I was mean and held a black belt.

Oh well, we can't compare ourselves to the OP. We know we're better

Hope you are doing well...

I like to call this posture

nipples to the wind

Hi CL,


...I am surprised he told you that! ...WS usually like to keep their lies to themselves :RollieEyes:

Hi PEP!

...do you know if I would be up for any awards? CL seems to think so

Update.

My dad was hospitalized this weekend, and they decided to keep him there for tests. What is sure is that his cancer treatments will have to be stopped as his body will not tolerate them. I am glad I have a planned trip to go see my parents in a week or so.

My dad was not one of those who overly demonstrated his affection, he had his own issues, but he was someone on whom you could 'COUNT on for being there', and for whom his family was everything....sort of the quiet ROCK that could easily go unnoticed...

...and I now realize that my dad's DEDICATION and COMMITTMENT to his family is at the opposite end of that of a WS....and I guess I thought that when a MAN chose to have a FAMILY, he would be PROTECTIVE of it as my DAD would be....the contrast is great enough that I have tears flowing down my cheeks from the realization that it is just NOT so! ....as I have learned it...the HARD WAY!

This, I guess, is what one calls a.....BS reality-check moment!

Sorry to hear about this Luna. Same with my Dad. Wasn't the touchy feely type, but was always there working hard for us.

I will pray for you and your family....

Have a hug from me, too.

You know, my dad was committed to his family, too. He was an unloved/unwanted child shuttled from house to house in his mother's family due to his mother's illness. He never learned how to show love to my mom or his daughters. But, I've often wondered what his reaction would have been when my marriage melted down.

Hi CL and Cind,



Thanks for your thoughts. I really appreciate it. Cind...my dad is a bit the same...didn't learn to 'show love' that much...

His 'issues' are related to his never being 'good enough' in HIS dad's eyes and not ever really knowing that he was 'loved' by his parents, because they were so CRITICAL, no matter how hard he tried!

...but my dad worked hard at PROVIDING for his family the best way he could, inspite of his EMOTIONAL scars.... and he made a lot of SACRIFICES to meet, if not his family's emotional needs, at least in the traditional way, make sure we had a comfortable, secure, 'open-door policy' home, on which my brother and I could always count on should we get in 'trouble' and needed a place to go to even as adults... I personally have never had to use that option, I know my brother a few years back, when he had a 'change over' of houses, my parents accommodated him and his little family for over a year...because his 'new house' wasn't ready!

Anyways...I guess the fact that HIS days on THIS earth may be counted... somehow leads one to imagine LIFE with and WITHOUT that person.... and for me, this leads to another INEVITABLE loss....

Although one that at least is easier to BEAR... because one can at least say that, it is part of the 'cycle of life'...

....and I guess the ISSUE I have now is dealing with feelings of POWERLESSNESS, of not KNOWING how I can help HIM!

I can only imagine how SCARED he must be and overwhelmed by feelings of POWERLESSNESS himself....because this is NOT an obscure disease....can't think of anyone that HASN'T been touched by this disease....and it CAN have long and painful, physical and emotional, consequences!

I am so thankful I have a place I can come to...to share my thoughts and feelings! ...it really helps!

Thanks.

Oh Luna, I feel this like a rock was just thrown at me and my cheeks are flowing with tears for your pain. I'm so sorry your dad is not doing well. Whatever hurts, whatever issues we have with our parents, they are still our parents and a part of us who we love and don't like to see hurt.

Years after my dad died, I found out he was illegitamate, how funny I can't even spell it correcly. Anyways, my father was emotionally bankrupt and embarrased of me because of my weight. My mom was narcissitic and both of my parents didn't want kids and never should have had me or my sister.

HOWEVER, I believe with all my heart if they were alive today, they would have KILLED WH for what he has done. In fact, they would have made WH wish he had NEVER gotten involved with OP.

My husband too suffered horrible trauma from his childhood. He was damaged and I think it's finally caught up with him and my family is the collateral damage. It's ironic that WH especially in this state is emotionally bankrupt and narcissitic like both of my parents.

What I do know is if his parents were alive, they would have disowned him. But I also can say what if they had all lived, I don't believe we would be in this position. We would still be in CA living life with family around us.

I worshipped the ground my dad walked on, needed his love so bad and never really had it the way I NEEDED it. And when he died I didn't think I would survive. Oh, you do and time heals.

Going through this AFFAIR and loss of a M is by far worse and if you can somehow find comfort you have faced the hardest thing in life and are doing pretty darn good, you will walk through this part of life with your family and be ok. It will hurt, it will be sad, but it won't be filled with the deep level of pain that I know you have inside or did once upon a time.

Please know you and your family are in my prayers and I hope to hear an update soon.

Hi Queenie,

Thank you so much for your thoughtful post, and I can see that you also are in a lot of pain.


...and yes, I would agree...

I am now back from my trip... I was able to see that my elderly dad and mom have a good 'support' network of people who have experienced loss to death, with my brother there to consult with for any major decisions. Everyone will be going through some sort of emotional rollercoaster....with a lot of people there to help out!

... and yes, I do find that sharing the loss, or the possible loss, of a 'loved' one to death seems sooooo much easier to do in comparison! Just about everyone can relate and, more importantly, it rarely involves feelings of 'SHAME' as many of us here have experienced to some degree when hit with D-day!

...and yes, only HERE do I find some comfort with sharing my feelings....the good, the bad and the ugly... related to the loss of MY family.... and yet everybody is still....ALIVE!

...and yes....AGAIN....I have tears falling down my cheeks.... WISHING that it be OTHERWISE...and KNOWING that it's NOT!

Where's BR when we need her?

It doesn't matter....she has left her mark...and I can just HEAR her.... it it WHAT IT IS, KIDDO!

....knowing that I just temporarily fell off the "wagon" reminiscing about the PAST...rather than stick with the PRESENT!

arghhh! :RollieEyes:

I am OK, really. Just a little bit tired...physically and mentally, I guess.

I am glad to be back. Will be touching base and catching up with how things are with some of you, but before doing that...it's a beautiful day outside...and I no longer have to be convinced how good an idea it is....to go out there and take a walk, and appreciate the warmth of the sun and the beauty of a blue sky dotted with white fluffy clouds!

Thanks CL.

Just stopped by Bugs' thread.

My WS may have similar issues as Drac... only with regards to wanting to keep JUST ENOUGH of a connection between us to RELIEVE some pain...( because as far as I know, OP is still very much in the picture in his case!)....

WS likes being 'needed', and I guess for him "being there" for me is accepting to take care of DS12 for a few additional days while I went to see my parents...and I did 'thank' him for doing it on such a short notice.

Exceptionally WS also called my mom while I was there visiting to get 'news' about my dad, knowing I was right there.... it's HIS way of staying CONNECTED....

I also know WS may be 'itching' to talk to me about the boys (as I am)... but I work hard at respecting my own boundary of 'no direct' communication unless it's an emergency related to boys...and if I can help it, I do not attend any events where WS may be also be present...and if it happens, and it's related to boys and I don't want to miss it...I stay AWAY from WS...or at best say 'HELLO' and move on...

Remember...WS is looking to be 'friends' to do 'friendly co-parenting' with me and continue affair with OP (he now refers to OP as his GF!).... I am interested on working on re-uniting our family with N/C with OP as a pre-requisite!

...which is why Plan D is in order...there is no 'meeting of the minds' happenin.. here! ...for now....HE is prepared to DESTROY our family to maintain OP in his life...THAT is the reality...(even though WS may deny that is what he is doing!) :RollieEyes:

Luna,

I agree with your approach. Don't be available to talk to him about the boys. He definitely wants the friendly co-parent arrangement. There are so many days that I need WH's support on our DD, but I know that I have to remain dark. No matter what, OP will never be able to take the place of the natural parent.

As I move more and more to little or no feelings for WH, I realize that he proably has no feelings for me either, which is why this will all probably end in D with him going his way and me going which ever way I end up going

Well, I guess I deserve a treat, so I'm going down to the ice cream store to have a hot fudge sundae.