Hi Sugar cane


In Feb of this year I went to Ireland for 3 weeks because I arranged with the primary school beside my dad's house to take the 3 eldest girls in school to improve their English. During this time H was alone and was to join us for the last few days and travel back with us. On Thursday evening of the second week he asked OW out to dinner to celebrate them getting her PhD results published in a very good journal. They went on the train to Paris and went to a restaurant. During the meal nothing overt was mentioned but they were enjoying each other's company. As they walked back to the train station they were joking about how they'd better not miss the last train or else they might have to stay in a hotel in Paris. H says that at this point she slowed down significantly and in a flash of understanding he knew that she wanted to miss the train and was interested. He was stunned. They didn't miss the train but continued to joke about that on the train. When they got to the station where their cars were parked, she mentioned that she knew a hotel in X (where she lives) and they decided to go there following each other in the cars.
They went to her flat and has sex on the sofa.
He didn't stay the night but went home after a while. The next day was a Friday and he sent her an email from work to say that he was thinking of going to Brussells for the weekend (I think he had already planned to go rather than spend another weekend alone but I can't fully remember) and if she'd like to go with him they could have a weekend together and then that would be it, afterwards they would draw a line under their relationship. She agreed. They went to a hotel and stayed most of the time in bed.
When they got back she then wrote to him saying that in fact she couldn't accept that that was it because she had loved him from afar for 4 years and knew that he was the man of her life. He was very surprised. He left for Ireland a few days later and I knew that something was wrong because he was distant from me and even the girls despite the 2 and a half weeks of not seeing us.



From what I understand they have stayed away together 3 times. One night in Strasbourg, 2 nights in Italy (just before our 10 year wedding anniversary) and in Ireland for a whole week although this last one was after I found about the A. They had planned to spend the week together but I found out a month before the conf. He told me before that they had agreed not to share a hotel because there were too many people they knew. We had reached an agreement to reconstruct the day before he left and I warned him 'only professional contact'. He agreed. I found out they were in the hotel while they were there, rang him, told him what I knew and then hung up. He rang back 4 times and I kept telling him that if he wanted to talk to me then he had to get a plane and kept hanging up. He sent me two emails that night telling me how much he loved me and that he had only done it in order to help her do a good presentation and to break it off as 'cleanly' as he could. I think he still maintains this position but I haven't talked about it for a while for fear of it pushing me over the edge.
Apart from that he also spent a few days with her at Easter while I was staying in his parents. And they also went to her flat 2 or 3 times a week at lunchtime for sex.
They didn't tell anyone and my H was adament that nobody knew and so far everyone I've told has been stunned and shocked with no suspicions at all.



D-day was 7 weeks ago tomorrow. I suggested that we all go to an amusement park the Sat before back to school because the weather was great. That morning I went out to put things in the car and outside our house (we live in a very small village where everyone knows everyone) were a group of 3 very good friends of mine (one of them was the mother of a little girl we invited to come with us that day) plus the OW and her boss who is also our neighbour. I went over and kissed (the bise) all of them. We had a good day excpet that H dropped my hand as soon as he could when I held his.
That evening H jumped on the computer as usual and I went to make dinner. I went to see him to tell him that my blog was having an exceptional month and to kiss him. He quickly closed down the window he was in and opened another. I was suspicious, went back to the kichen and asked him to go upstairs to get the girls out of the bath. He did and as soon as he did I opened the window and discovered an email from OW saying, 'how are you, my love' and went on to say how strange it was for her to see his with his family and to kiss me. It was a very long email but I couldn't read it all because I stumbled on a sentence where she said that she wanted to buy a princess outfit for my youngest daughter. I was sick and went into the garden. When he came down, I said 'I read the email from OW'. He said 'So you know'. Then, 'Can we wait until the girls are in bed?' I said 'OK' but I don't know how I functioned until they were gone.
Then he came down and told me that he loved me and he loved her and couldn't decide between us. I was shocked because I felt so sure that he would throw himself in front of me and beg for forgiveness. He then proceeded to come out with all kinds of crazy suggestions for how the problems of separation could be resolved. Much later I discovered a text from her saying 'how could you have come to these conclusions? What use were all my messages?' and he admitted that these messages were arguing about how all obstacles could be overcome. He even mentioned that we could share the care of the girls. I said 'with what money? we barely have enough for one house. We certainly couldn't afford 2 houses big enough for 4 children' He said, why don't we share this one, a week on and a week off. I said ' so you want me to leave here every second week on my own and dissappear and wander around' He had the good grace to be embarrassed and say 'well, no'.
Then followed a month on indecision on his part.


We live in France, Paris region, OW lives nearby but has handed in notice on her flat at the end of this month because she was to move to Ireland next month, my dad lives in Ireland (my mum died 5 years ago of a long-term illness) and his parents live 500km south of here in France.

Have to run now, hope all this info isn't too much.

Best, Tully

Yes, he rang me to tell them he told them and also a very close family friend (almost like a brother). FIL said absolutely nothing, not one word (this doesn't surprise me). MIL tried her best not to hear what he was saying and only wanted to hear that we were going to work it out and urged him to think about the children. Brother wasn't there. (they're a crazy family, they think the best way to deal with any probs is to ignore them)
WH gave minimum details - just that he had an A, that he knew he was wrong and we were going to make it.
Wife of best friend rang me the next morning and I told her details.
I spoke to MIL in the evening and discussed telling her more detail and emphasised that I would not stay if NC was not in place. SHe understood and said she would help any way she could.

Hi Tully,

You said earlier:

I am thinking giving myself two and a half more weeks before deciding to leave. I could Plan A for a while. The reason why is that it would suit me much better logistically than right now. It's not that easy to leave the country to go to another one with 4 children with a language and culture difference involved.

In 2.5 weeks it will be about two months since you found out and have been trying to stop contact, is that correct? I think the two weeks would be a good timeline because it would allow you to work through all the legalities of a Plan B. I do hope you’ll get some more knowledgeable advice soon, but I have a few more thoughts.

As I understand it, you have to have everything in place so that you present your H with a done deal and do not have to contact him later when you find out that some things have not been thought through. Financial issues are paramount; you must have a separate bank account so that he cannot empty your money from the joint one, and a guaranteed source of income. If he is the only wage earner, do you know that he will continue to pay for you, the children and the house? If he stopped paying, how long could you survive until you got a court order for money?

Please read VL22’s thread, “a never ending affair!” She has faced the problem of not having realised how many loose ends there are to tie up.

If you move away temporarily, will your children lose their place in school? Is there a waiting list – would they get back in easily? There must be several tedious bits and pieces like this to think about.

A 2 week delay would also give you time to execute a good Plan A. Dr. Harley has said that women should use Plan A for only 3-4 weeks, because living through an ongoing affair is so hard on their mental health. 2 more weeks would take you close to that timeline.

I never did Plan A either, so please get help on the basics! I was merely strong, silent, understanding, non-love busting, beautiful, ugly, angry, tearful, drunk and screaming in rotation. I can’t help you here!

What does this mean, Tully?

Another element is that OW is supposed to leave at the beginning of November but I am pretty sure that she is not going to go and that's why my threats have no impact- because they are only effective if she intends to leave and I think she won't.

Are you saying that if she stays you cannot enforce NC? I don’t see why, if that’s what you mean. My suggestion in my long post is that you make HIM find the solution to NC. He does this while you are in Plan B, and you do not allow him back (or go back) until HE has solved the whole problem. If that means a job change and house, so be it. He might have to give up academia altogether. So be it. What could he do for a private sector company? HE should solve the problem of meeting her at future conferences and every other aspect of future contact, to your satisfaction. He mad the mess and your interventions do not seem to be working, so let him clean it up.

This brings me to your questions:

If I try to leave, he is going to do everything in his power to stop me and will promise me the sun, moon and stars (as he has before) How do I deal with this? Do I ask for specific things or do I leave anyway? And when do I come back?

If you don’t want to end up where I did, as I described in the long post above, you do not let promises change your course of action. If you do, you will only find yourself months down the line still dealing with this problem. Have a look at fiori’s thread “can the BS get ‘closure’ with a visit to OW? See where she has ended up after a year of dealing with an H who has not changed job. Read the thread right through to the end; the latest development, of the last few days, will shock you. Compare her feelings now with how she felt earlier on.

I would say that you get him to leave anyway (leave yourself only if he flat-out refuses) and only come back when he has proved to you that NC is established.

Do you think he needs to 'hate' OW in order to get rid of her? Because he keeps defending her even when her actions are indefensible and he seems to have an amazing ability to deform facts to defend her. I wonder if my criticisms of her only encourage him to defend her.

First: stop lowering yourself by criticising her (out loud). For some reason, it makes you look cheap to your WS. It might take months for this to sink in, Tully, but however pretty or intelligent she might be she is scum next to you because of her immorality. You need to see yourself for the goddess that you are. She wants to be you, don’t you see that? And you most certainly need to feel glad that you are not her.

My H’s OW’s first proposal to my H was a deep snog in a bar, blatantly offering sex to a man she barely knew. They had worked together on a committee, but not closely.

Their first date came after he wrote her an email asking her to lunch the next time he was in Brussels. They met, had a drink, then he asked her up to his room. She let him into her body just like that. She and her H were both virgins when they married. She was disappointed with her marriage. When they moved to Belgium she embarked upon a career of screwing around while her children were at school. She had a four-year affair with her DRIVING INSTRUCTOR – while her husband paid for her lessons. They did most of their screwing in the back of a van. I used to think my H had snagged a classy woman out of his normal league when I first discovered her. Her own H told me about the driving instructor details. He found out the details when he I exposed the affair with my H. He says that his left foot is classier than she is.

The next screwing session with my H was overnight at her house, while her H and kids were away. She still barely knew my H and she defiled her H’s bed and home like this.

The final screwing sessions, 3.5 years later, when my H was desperately trying to dump her, came when she turned up at his hotel and gave him the blow jobs (and the straightforward sex) that she normally did not like doing much, to get him to stay with her. On their last night together (she told her H), my H was cold and horrible towards her. He let her stay when she turned up, but barely spoke to her and she cried all night. He said no soothing words about being sorry he had to let her go.

Her husband is a highly paid professional in Brussels, she too has a respectable job there, and they live in a five-bedroomed detached house in a lovely district. Their kids went to private schools and she wears expensive clothes. Yet she behaves worse than one of the many tarts who ply their trade amongst Brussels businessmen. Like them, she treats her lady parts like a sewer, but unlike them she does not even make the going rate. My H bought her some jewellery, underwear, and champagne and chocolates to be consumed during their sessions, but I think that over 3.5. years she was seriously underpaid.

Classy? Someone for whom I feel envy? I think not. In nearly 20 years of marriage I have never so much as touched another man’s hand. Her body has seen more traffic than Gare du Midi. I used to criticise her and then felt like a loser when I did so. When I found out, after many months of digging, just how poorly she had treated her own body, her husband and her children, I began to feel contempt, and now only occasionally feel vague pity.

Try to do what I did on this one.

Sorry, what was the question?

Do you think he needs to 'hate' OW in order to get rid of her?

I don’t think they all do, no. This wasn’t true in any of the examples used in SAA or any of the Harley materials that I can remember. What only seems to be necessary is that he applies the behavioural techniques that Dr. Harley specifies. Many WSs on these boards seem to have been brought out of the affair without having to develop a dislike for the OP. I am only speculating that, if you take your love and support away from your H, he will hate her. I don’t think that this is a precondition of real, true NC.

I must get home and get my poor son’s tea on. I might get a chance to post later this evening. If not, I apologise, Tully. I don’t have the internet at home. I might get a chance to use my friends PC while she goes out for a while. I will be able to get to the library tomorrow, so I promise you a few posts over the weekend.

Please, please drag other people on here. Don’t let it seem to your previous posters as if you are getting help from me. I don’t have the expertise necessary to guide you through this. My bumping your posts up to the top of the boards might make it seem to others as if you are getting plenty of help, but you need so much more.

Remember to breathe,

Sugar.

I know, everyone has been so great. Thank you and even if it looks like I'm having a hard time on board your advice it has had a huge impact on me and my actions. I have been exposing all around me and I can see now that it is the right way to go. My MIL seems to be coming up trumps. She rang WH yesterday and said she was talking to me and wanted to talk to him. She said she could call this morning.

By the way, I must say that WH is the most generous, non-materialistic man and has never been mean. I don't believe he would ever do anything deliberate to make us suffer financially and even if he ever did I could contact my PIL who would help us and would be so shocked if he cut us off.

Dear Tully,

We cross-posted yesterday. I had just hit 'submit' when I saw your post. I was not able to stay and read your post but I printed off your whole thread and took it home. It makes things so much clearer when I have a whole printed thread to work through. Thank you very much for filling me in so comprehensively.

Having read it, there are a few things I should like to discuss later today. However, the one thing I must ask right now is:

Does your H clone fully-grown human beings in his lab? Is there any chance that he has cloned himself and sent the other one here to London?

Your H and his OW had trysts in Brussels, Strasburg, Italy and Paris?

I knew there was a reason I felt compelled to post to you.

My H mostly travelled to Brussels in his job. He would be there for one or two nights about twice a month, with the occasional longer stay. She would normally meet him in his hotel room at lunchtimes. He went to Strasburg once a year. She might have gone there too. He also went to Dublin once.

However, I found, through internet digging that, to my utter shock and dismay, his OW had a travelling job. He simply had to tell me that he was working and go and stay with her, without my suspecting a thing. They met in in Italy twice, and Paris, Lisbon, Bratislava and Luxembourg. Some of those are places I have never been. It really hurt to find this out.

I must go for a run in the park now, but please check meanwhile that your husband is the real one and not the clone. I'll be back later.

Have you managed to read any threads or Harley material on the site yet? I think this is really important. There are a couple of thread with "Plan B' in the titles that are active on GQ2. One asks whether the plan can really work, another is asking for practical advice. Do try and search, if you can do so without raising your H's curiosity and if you can take time away from your girls.

Sugar.

This has to be quick as I have the family around.

Sugar, no, I'm fairly sure no cloning has been done. I think one version of this particular specimen is more than adequate.



What I meant was that I have threatened to expose OW to her new boss-to-be (very prickly, difficult man who I know well) if she contacts WH but she doesn't care so that indicates to me that she probably intends to not go. She seems very desperate to me and told WH that she has been in love with him for over 4 years (but he only found this out in Feb/ March this year.) I think that she is ready to do anything to get him and this makes it harder. I totally accept that it's up to him to find a way to get NC but he keeps saying, that's it, she's gone but she comes back again.

PS; He brought me back 3 red roses from his home visit/work trip. He is trying. I told him again that NC is essential and he says he understands.

You're right; he is very trying.

When he is ready to work on the M, you will know. You will get roses PLUS an un-coerced NC. He will WANT to implement the boundaries himself. Trust me, you'll see a difference.

All you have right now are crumbs. Still crumbs. Beautiful, aromatic crumbs, but still crumbs.

To clarify - since you should still be in Plan A until such time as you go into Plan B, thank him very nicely for the flowers, and meet some admiration needs.

Any and all crumbs should be acknowledged and encouraged while you're in Plan A, but don't deceive youself as to their true nature.

Good job for making sure the exposure took place. Might as well call the other boss, too.

This woman won't give up till your WH is on board with getting rid of her. Even then it may be challenging for a bit, but it'll get done.

Hi Tully,

I'm firing off thoughts about your descriptions of the affair whenever I get a shot at a PC. With luck I will cover several things over the weekend.

I think you should tattoo Neak's last couple of comments to the inside of your wrist. I'm sorry that you have to face this, but you must acknowledge the likelihood of that he is making gestures like the roses even though he is still in the emotional part of his affair.

It's not that he's an evil schemer. Some WSs might be like that, but, but the ones we have read about here are not. They are caught up in something that is very hard from them to walk away from.

I don't suppose your H gave you the roses with the deliberate intention of fooling you. I think he's horrified at how much he's hurt you and, in the words of my H (14 months after D Day 2 - the really big one - and my discovery of another year of continued sexual contact while he witnessed my increasing emotional fragility) "would do anything" to save his marriage. I just don't understand how they could say those things and appear to mean them, yet do the very opposite by continuing the affair (at some level), but they do.

The point about the Harley methods is, it isn't necessary to understand how WSs could be so cruel to the BSs that they love. It also isn't necessary, or even wise, to try and ascertain their honesty by looking into their eyes or translating their gestures. You must just accept that until contact is completely severed, your H can and probably will do appalling things to you with OW, and loving things to you at home.

I think, if you can find time to get through my ever-growing reading list for you, you should read Neak's own story. She attaches it as a link in her signature. There are instances of the most breathtaking treatment from her husband while the affair was in progress. Her H, AJ, posts here now and is unrecognisable from whomever that was she was living with 3 years ago.

I will also recommend mimi_here, who is posting a lot to fiori just now, and Trying2Live who is being guided through Plan B by several experts. Trying's post is at the top of page 1 of GQ2 currently.

The most important thing is that you only go to Plan B when you are in the state of mind to cope with all its fallout, and plan carefully for it meanwhile. I think the right time is difficult to judge. I can see people on Trying's post discussing whether she should keep going with Plan A until her love starts to disappear or move to it before that point. Please seek some guidance for your own situation.

I think that your idea of waiting until November to see whether OW takes the job in Ireland might be a good move. It's not that long away, if you are holding up now and put in place a good Plan A, and her moving might be something to take into consideration if you still have to go to Plan B later.

What I mean by this is: have you thought where your H will go if you DO insist he moves out? Isn't it likely that he'll move in with her? As I understand it, that it not a bad thing, and perhaps even a good one, in Plan B. It will remove the fantasy elements from their intermittent physical contact and make them face the reality of living together, and make him face the reality of living without you.

However, you have to acknowledge this and plan for it, and not be shocked when it happens.

Some things do not seem to have been talked about yet:

Can you afford to counsel by phone with the Harleys?

How are you dealing with intimacy, and have you considered the risk of STDs?

Have you tried to ascertain his main emotional needs? You need to try and meet them while in Plan A.

How are the children coping with the environment in the home?

You said earlier that you're sure people think you are weak for not going to Plan B now. I don't think they do. I think we all know what a state of shock, disbelief and grief you are in now, and why you do not quite know which way to turn. What we are trying to do is to get you to avoid enabling the continuation of the affair to the detriment of your mental health and your marital recovery prospects.

I'm in no position to talk, but Neak, who is posting today, is. Please ask her and others to go through what you should be doing now in Plan A, and what you should be doing to prepare for Plan B. For one thing, i think you should be drafting your Plan B letter and putting it here for comment. If something happens (such as a discovery of new sexual contact) that you cannot cope with for one minute more, you need to have the letter and the Plan in place to use instantly.

Back later,

Sugar.

I'm adding another very important question: Are you spying properly? What access to you have to his phone, and the email account he was using? I don't think spying has been discussed here either, but I don't see how you can ascertain what contact there is if you only take his word for things. Most of us BSs need to spy, and what you discover must be used carefully by you. You might need to say "I know you are still speaking to her" but you must not give away your source of information. This can be very hard to do.

Has he admitted any contact since the phone call the other day? If he says there has been none, you should be thinking what might magically have happened to make this persistent OW suddenly give up.

My WH suddenly started saying there was no contact at various points, and I never believed him after D Day 2. I was unable to prove things sometimes, but I always found proof later. The reason I did not believe him was because of her previous behaviour, and the desperation I had read in her text messages. I turned out at all times to be correct, and the hardest thing to discover later was that he was actually encouraging her to call him at a fixed later date to let him know how she was, while swearing to me, sometimes quite angrily, that he had not heard a word from her. Oh, that and the fact that he was still screwing her.

On Christmas Eve 2006 my H packed a case and said he was leaving because of my behaviour on this issue. (He didn't go.)

In mid-January 2007 I finally exposed to her H, and by February discovered from hr H that, before they both finished work for that previous Christmas, my H had told her that he would be back in the office on January 2 and that she was to call him to let him know how her marriage was going.

Please understand this, Tully: he was prepared to walk out on me and the kids because of my unreasonableness. According to him, he had done all he could (including giving up his travelling job) to repair his marriage. The remaining problems in the marriage lay with me and my obsession with the past. He was terribly angry when said that he could take my questioning no more, that Christmas Eve, and yet he knew that he had made the arrangement with her only a few days earlier.

I don't know how he could have done that, when he had sometimes begged me to stay in the marriage, once on his knees. He was not planning to leave me during this affair; he had NEVER planned to leave me to go to her. But he brought me to the brink of a nervous breakdown, and seriously considered leaving his kids on Christmas Eve, because he did not see why he could not stay friends with this woman, or why he should tell me about it. I don't know how he could felt this after all the trouble that her persistent contact had already brought to the marriage, but he did.

Are you spying?

So Neak, I get that you're not impressed with the red roses (did I mention that they are red? And long?) Right so, I give up.

I am absolutely listening to you and deep down (deep, deep down) I know you are right but I would so much rather not believe what you are saying. I want to believe that he has seen his mistake and it's behind us but I have a suspicion that there is more to come.

Sugar, I might have to post quickly when he comes down but quickly...

Spying - I'm not very good at it. I tend to be fairly direct. For example when I caught them on the phone on Monday I should have turned around and gone home to see if he would tell me but I barged in. I haven't done anything specific but what should I be doing?

Sex - Have been coming on to him for some very recently due to weeks of deprivation and keenness to get back to normal but admission of sexual addiction to her has cooled me off especially since he couldn't tell me if having sex with me was good.

Going now

Have you thought about this idea?

1. Take 5K-10K out of your joint account or charge it getting a cash advance.

2. Place it in your own bank account that your husband cannot access.

3. Look around and find a good attorney who will start the process to SUE the other woman and to SUE your husband.

4. Get going on this.

5. Report it to all the local and college papers. It will be a front page artical: "Wife sues husband and lover for illegal activity/ illicit sex/ affair."

I believe if there is a lawsuit going and the OW gets "served" papers to show up in court, it may make her back off. I believe you can sue for anything and with this OW you may need to do this. Your husband can pay for it. No one will be able to argue with the news articals.

Dear Stellakat,

I love the idea of suing OW. She has inflicted emotional damage on Tully. Damages are often awarded in civil lawsuits for emotional distress. I wonder if French law covers this.

There are also bound to have been some financial losses to Tully and her children caused by her H's spending during the affair. Financial losses will be greater still if they separate. She should sue for those also.

However, I don't know whether this single woman in her 20s has many assets, so the financial penalty awarded might be token.

I also wonder whether some OW wouldn't stand up to a fight like this. I think that some would try proudly to prove that the marriage was unhappy and that the WH was desperate for some real love and emotional support. There would be emails and text messages from the WS produced in court to support these claims. Her lawyers would have a field day trying to humiliate Tully.

If a BS sues her WS she is essentially suing herself. I know that in many countries, assets of the H and W are seen as joint assets, no matter whose account they are held in. I suppose that in one way, if Tully were awarded damages against her H, there would be no financial loss to her, since some of their joint money would be awarded to her (and would thus become joint money). However, he (and OW) would have to pay costs to both his and Tully's lawyers. That might not be a good use of their joint assets - the marital bank accounts could end up depleted after this process.

I suppose Tully could always make money from newspaper interviews - but then so could OW. Having to listen to her claims, and having them committed to print in perpetuity, would be humiliating for Tully and her children.

I would think that suing the couple might only be a good idea if Tully intends to divorce her H.

So: is your underlying suggestion that Tully's H has shown such a breathtaking level of cruelty, such a lack of love for her, such a lack of appreciation for his marriage and such total indifference to the needs of the children that she should indeed divorce him?

I'm sure she should seriously consider divorce, as should many here. She certainly should not put up with her husband's abusive behaviour for a day more. For now, she wants to use the Harley methods to end the affair.

Some people here are good at providing step-by-step advice in using the methods, but I think your advice for the BS to find some self-respect is also sorely needed.

Hi Tully,

I don't know that you did the wrong thing at all the other day. Why do you think so? I think confronting him immediately when you went into his office and found him on the phone to her was an excellent move. If you had gone away and said nothing, what might the outcome have been? What if he had never told you? Would you have brought it up eventually? What would have been the difference between telling him what you knew in two days and straight away? Indeed, two days later he might have told you that you had misunderstood. As it was, you caught him off guard and he told you what you need to know.

I think that, as with everything else in this situation, you need to use spying within a Plan A that you keep short. In other words, you should not keep your findings to yourself for a long time, in the hope that he comes to his senses without your having to use Plan B (or D).

Neither can you reveal what you know and then go back to accepting promises from him. Once you reveal your methods he will learn how to better hide his actions in future.

I think that right away you should be checking the messages on his phone. You must do this without getting caught. At night, while he was asleep and snoring, was a good time for me. I tried to find out earlier in the evening where the phone was being hidden, so that at midnight I could go straight to the place. I could not risk hunting through his belongings in the dark, not knowing whether the phone was in a bag, jacket, wardrobe or whatever. I would then sneak into the bathroom or kitchen to read the messages, listen to the voicemail and write down everything I found.

My H only brought his work phone home after a trip abroad. I wasn't doing this every night!

Remember that unread messages are flagged as such, so once you open a message your H has not seen it will be marked as read, and he will know it was you. If you delete the new message so he does not know you read it, his OW will one day ask whether he got her message, he will say no, and again, they will know it was you.

You need to check his called dialled and calls received, and his sent and received messages. If he is deleting all these and the records are completely empty, there is something wrong. However, he might be more clever than this and leave all the non-affair ones in place.

I believe you can check his phone records by setting up an online account. That way, any calls deleted from the SIM will show online.

You can install a key logger on his home PC. It will show you all his use. I don't remember the technicalities of this. Other posters here will be able to help you. However, if you can just guess the password to his email account you can monitor that. If you don't already know the password, don't ask for it. He will instantly stop using that account for affair business and set up a new one. If you can get into his PC, check "history".

You could try using a digital voice recorder. You have to have a discovery-proof place to hide it. Many posters here put them in the WS's car, because mobile calls are often made while driving. I think there might be legal ramifications here; it might be an offence in your country to place a device in a car that you do not own. Get a voice-activated one that saves the battery when no sounds are being made. If your H works from home sometimes, one could be placed in his home office.

A GPS tracking device could be put in the car, but I think the same legal issues might apply if the car is in his name only.

Make sure that anything you buy for this use does not appear on your credit card statement, and carefully hide the boxes and receipt. Do not throw them away! You might need to invoke the guarantees!

He is probably not silly enough to use the landline to your house, but you never know; check it anyway for calls in and out, and make sure you get an itemised phone bill.

His bank and credit card statements might be very enlightening. If he keeps these away from you, again, set up an online account that you can check from your PC.

You have to check that the batteries of spying devices don't bleep when they are running low, and remember to remove the devices from the car before he takes it to a place where it is hand washed and thoroughly vacuumed. The staff at these places take everything out of the car to clean it. They leave valuables on the seat.

You might not want to do these things. Spying on your spouse is a rather degrading way to have to live your life. It also keeps you in a constant state of anxiety that you might be discovered. You want to get to the stage that Neak describes, where he falls over himself to provide the openness and accountability that you will need from now on.

I would not be surprised if you decided that you cannot live by spying and trying to trap your H. That is indeed no way to be married. However, neither is turning a blind eye to an affair. If he will not willingly give you NC and transparency, and you will not spy, then you will need to leave.

Stella generally posts in favor of divorce, even in very hopeful cases, Trying2Live for one very recent example, and there are many more. I have no beef with Stella personally, but often find myself taking exception to her advice.

Stella, if you haven't already seen it, please look at what I posted to you over on T2L's thread. I am appalled to see you again posting pro-divorce recommendations in situations that do not remotely warrant it.

Tully, I truly think you have a good chance of saving your marriage. Using the MB plans, approximately 85% of marriages recovery. For families with 3 or more children, those figures jump to around 95%. Apparently the larger families have even more of a bond, but even the smaller families have a sizable success rate. Keep in mind that the overall success rate of 85% is roughly the FAILURE rate for traditional counseling.

I can help with the traditional aspects of Plan A/Plan B, but the international part has me stumped. My nearest state border is probably farther away than your country's border, lol. But the day to day how-do-I-get-through-this-being-nice-while-my-WH-continues-to-contact-his-OW, that I can do.

Also, FWIW, I think you did the right thing to confront him about his contact. Confrontation is a part of Plan A, but needs to be conducted calmly and without LB's. His PERCEPTION will be that any confrontation at all is an LB, but that's just his foggy waywardness talking. As long as you're in control, confrontation is good.

If you do have time to read my story, carefully look at the parts where we had a false recovery, and how he acted during that time, and then how he acted once he became serious. I wasn't sure at first I would know if/when he was serious, until I saw it in action. You'll know it, too.

"Stella generally posts in favor of divorce, even in very hopeful cases, Trying2Live for one very recent example, "

It may sound ironic, but I believe that unless the BS faces the truth about the cheater spouse, they have no chance at saving thier marriage. Many BS seem to try and gloss over the truth. So they can stand to live day to day with thier cake eating cheating lying spouse.

If they face the truth and see how little the spouse loves them, they may be able to take hard actions to save the marriage. If they believe the fake loving words from the lying cheater, then they are not in a position of strength that they need to be to save the marriage.

Your statement puzzles me, Stellakat. I had read your advice to Tully and Trying2Live as favouring divorce. However, what you have written above seems to be saying that you are trying to show the BS how to save the marriage.

If your advice is not suggesting divorce, how is the BS supposed to see that from the advice you give?

Is it me, or is an entire post by Stella missing? You know, the one about the divorce...

Tully, I suggest that you focus your energy on the MB plans, which work, and have a proven track record.

What do you have planned for today? I'm getting ready for a pancake breakfast over at my parents, followed by some garage cleaning, ick, and choir practice this afternoon.

Maybe you can think of 3 ways to meet WH's needs today, including admiration. I know you probably wouldn't have anyone to ask about the int'l line problem today, so might as well relax and have some nice Plan A moments.

You are truly kidding yourself about his state of mind and investment in your M at this point,but I have a lot of faith in you, that you are growing strong enough to be able to face this, and take action. I see progress in your thinking, and lots of hope for your M.

I don't think there is anything missing from this thread, Neak. I have been following it closely and I don't think there was ever an explicit "divorce him" post. Perhaps I was just reading that advice into the "sue OW and WS" advice here, and perhaps I was wrong to see that.

There was such an explicit "divorce her" post to sickwithworry, sent at about the same time on Saturday as those to Tully and Trying. Perhaps you are thinking of that.

I think that it must be wise to advice divorce sometimes when the BS does not see it, mustn't it? MB is not a "marriage at all costs" programme, as I understand it. I wonder whether Stellakat can see something in Tully's case to suggest that affair-busting and recovery will turn out to be misguided efforts. If so, what? Is Tully's case worse than the most other cases of the newly betrayed that are helped here?

You and I have been having a phantom conversation via Tully, Neak, without formally introducing ourselves.

Hi Neak!