Excuse the ever so slight t/j was does FOO stand for?

Thanks F-26

faith full 2 x 13,

FOO = Family Of Origin .....(I believe)

Kool!!! Thanks

I didn't see this until now.

Sure, no problem. It's deleted.

You didn't read harsh to me, though. Appeared to be simply a statement of what you feel.

A changed WS, deeply and truly changed?

I have not seen such irl. Not once. No adulterer I know changes. And I know many. They are still the same person they always were. You just lave to look closely once in a while.

And, well, on here it is all just hearsay to me. Third-hand reports on an anonymous forum.

And even on here, of all the WS that cause this site to exist in the first place, maybe a handful of those WS claim to have changed? That is so few it does not even rate a percentage.

I never believe a WS, F or no, who says they’ve changed. They are proven not credible.

Oh, there are stories, legends of adulterous resurrection … but they are no more than somebody knows somebody who had a friend who’s WS-in-law is …

…is what, changed?

No, not changed.

White knuckling their adulterous inclinations, perhaps.

Will not commit adultery again?

Right. Right.

They are wired for it, remember?

And they have insatiable EN’s, remember?

Entitled to have them met whenever they want, wherever they want, by whomever they want.

They are demonstrated liars, cheaters and lack empathy for anyone, remember?

They are still who they always were.

They themselves have proven this.

They are just in disguise. Lurking. Waiting for another.

You can take it to the bank, and you won’t need a bailout.

Faithful, (if someone else hasn't already said so) FOO = Family of Origin

Marie,

I hope you don't mind, but I am going to quote you - it looks like that ship has sailed already anyway...If others remove your quotes though, please know that I'd certainly be willing, however, I think your words here are just as important as anyone else's and I would encourage you to feel free to share them...JMHO...

Anyway...


As a recovered wayward spouse I'd like to address the above, because I would bet that you are not the only BS that feels the need to walk on proverbial eggshells due to the choices made by the WS...I think that is a horrible shame and something I'd like no one to endure...

When was the last time your husband said that Marie? That one of the reasons that he had an affair was because you complained about your food? I ask for a couple of reasons...A statement like that sounds like a very foggy one that would come from a WS EARLY on...either during the affair or right after it. If it was made way back then, I think you should revisit it with him and let him explain to you why his having an affair had NOTHING to do with that (or anything else you might have been doing)...However, if this statement has been made years afterwards, then I think you are not dealing with a truly recovered/former WS...A true FWS would NOT be laying the blame for his affair at your feet...Instead, he would understand and own that his own weakness was what allowed him to choose to have an affair. That his lack of personal boundaries and lack of honesty about his needs, were actually the culprits that helped make him vulnerable in the first place.

I have no idea how often you complained about your food, and who would care if they were indeed valid complaints anyway? But I would ask him what specifically bothered him about your "food complaints" -maybe [and that's a BIG maybe] the WAY you do it is what constitutes an "annoying habit" for him...BUT even if it does fall under what Dr. Harley calls "annoying habits" that STILL would NOT be an excuse to have an affair. Of course, you would want to find a way to have BOTH of you WIN in the "food complaint" department (poja)...Eliminating annoying habits (and other lovebusters) IS important because doing so helps you and your spouse remain in love.

The KEY here is open and honest communication Marie, because that just might be one of those trumped up WS grievances and NOT really an annoying habit that would lead to lovebank withdrawals. I'll give you an example [an embarrassing one]...One of my wayward trumped up grievances at the time of the affair was that Mr. W used what I ridiculously referred to as "grandma toothpaste"! :RollieEyes: I can assure you that I do NOT care one iota what kind of toothpaste he uses - why in the world would I? That's NUTTY!!! But that was my very wayward over the top way of trying to justify my horrible actions by picking him apart (See? MY issue, certainly NOT his)...Btw, I've found since then that Mr. W was right, and Pepsodent really DOES taste great!


Marie...If your husband is an honest to goodness recovered/former WS then I think you'd be surprised to find out how he really sees you...I think it's something you ought to find out too...

In the case of Mr. W and myself...Mr. W measure up? Oh my goodness, he is a GIANT in my eyes...The admiration that I feel for him is pretty much impossible to put into words...I'm in AWE of him Marie...I do my best to emulate the example he sets for me daily...I get overwhelmed by the amount of love that I feel towards him...The grace and mercy that he has shown me - I wish I could properly convey this here - As a WS I did all that I could to tear him down...make him feel inferior...I was a terrible, abusive shrew to him...And still he stood strong... still he knew who he really was...still he loved me...still he never yelled at me...still he never called me a name...The amount of gentle strength that he possesses is beyond this world and I view it with wonderment...How in the world could I have done what I did to such an amazing man? You see Marie, there is no doubt that Mr. W had nothing to do with my horrendous and immoral choice to have an affair, no, that was born of my own shortcomings...

I've learned so much about the person that I am supposed to be by watching Mr. W - the calm and rational way that he acts instead of reacting - the kindness with which he approaches all things...the optimistic way that he tackles everything before him...I watch as almost everything he does shows me how deeply he loves God, myself and our dd...It is because of the way that he loves me (and leads me) that I've been able to deepen and strengthen my relationship with God and become the woman that I was intended to be...Because Marie, a BS that chooses to reconcile and extends mercy, grace and empathy to their WS demonstrates the kind of love that comes the closest that I've ever seen here on earth to how Christ loves us...It is breathtaking, awe inspiring, humbling, beautiful and absolutely amazing...

I hope something I've said helps...

Best,

Mrs. W

P.S. Thank you to BP and Mel for the kind words...

WOW, That was rather bleak,,

hey I can't say my hubby will never have another affair, I can't see the future, I can't honestly say I won't ever have an affair I never in a million years thought my hubby would.

I can say that right here, right now I am ever vigilant not to put myself in any situation where an affair may be possible.

That both myself and my hubby have learned a heck of alot about boundries and those darn slippery slopes.

I do know he has done a lot of work on himself, I do believe he loves me more now then he has ever loved me.

I do know we are happier now then ever, we are both working towards a common goal and that is making our marriage work and last forever.

I'm sorry I don't know your story Aphelion, so forgive me if I stepped on any toes.

Aphelion...

Submission and obedience to God changes people. Repentance is an undeserved gift not to be squandered. I often see you sign off here with the phrase "with prayers"...That must mean that you have both belief and faith in God...Don't you believe that people can be truly transformed by Him?

I'd invite you to email Mr. W (our address is in both of our signatures here) - Heck, you can contact him daily if you'd like...Allow him to give you reports of what our life looks like...Additionally, we'd be glad to meet you so that you could see "IRL" what recovered looks like...I'll volunteer us for you to study from now until one of us dies if you wish...I'm being serious...

When you have this...

Remorse
Repentance
Grace
Mercy
Empathy
Buy-in and commitment by both partners to the program in it's entirety...

You get this...

A recovered marriage...

Of course, I'd rather see recovery modeled for you in your own life...

Aphelion, as a Christian man, you are charged with being the leader of your household...LEAD your wife...Require her to do the work involved in real recovery - you do neither one of you any favors by conflict avoiding and just letting things slide - she doesn't come to genuine remorse that way, and you continue resenting based upon your choice to stay with someone who hasn't truly repented...If I were you I'd book the next MB weekend seminar and tell your wife that you are both going and following through with the program...I'd make that my boundary for staying in the marriage...

Best,

Mrs. W

Like it or no - you need couple's counseling.

Mr Pep and I recently restarted counseling - and it is helping immensly --- and MR PEP is the one who said "We need counseling. I am not happy."

I know Squid is resistant to talking to others - but I'd insist if I were you.
I'd tell her just exactly what you said in the above quote.

Six cases? Out of something like 55299 registered users, each representing a case of their own? And those are just current registered users. Better double that second number. I don’t really believe those six anyway. A lot of wishful thinking by BS goes on around here.

I am looking beyond my sitch, Mel. Far beyond it.

Methinks the (F)WS doth protest too much. All hearsay or (F)WS self-claims.

There is way too much flowery pink smoke being blown up BS rectums in this adulterous world.

MB is probably a reasonable sample of the real world of abuse, adultery, betrayal and treason. And the stats here match my real world observations.

There is also a study (I’ll try to locate it, but it was a while ago I saw it) about couples who stay together after adultery. Couples who claim to be recovered five years after D-Day. More than 85% (in another study it was above 90%) of these recovered couples said they were still not happy after all that time and effort.

Seems adultery and the affects of adultery never go away. (And, Mel, you are still here on MB, so the affects of your husband’s adultery are still present even for you.) One just gets kind of numb, eventually. Why does adultery never go away? Because the WS is still the same basic person!

Mel, you know alcoholics, inside and out. So do I, if from the other side of the coin. I agree with your recurring analogy that you cannot have an alcoholic hang out in bars. It is a mistake to place a drink in front of him, anywhere. Sooner or later his knuckles will turn white and he will drink it, if you keep doing it to him long enough. OK, the natural extension of your analogy is, WS cannot be around marriage. Can’t be in a marriage, cannot place a married person in front of one. Since this is impossible, the latter anyway, they will fall off the wagon eventually. It’s only a matter of time.

Their ENs are too overpowering for them. Their ENs are their real addiction.

It’s just a matter of time. Even Harley says so. We are all wired for it, right? Well, WS’s are somewhat more hard-wired for adultery than the rest of us. WS are at higher risk for adultery when around anyone, and always were at higher risk. It seems to happen with them sooner, and more often, and recurring. .

Sheesh, it seems as if the only way for a BS to stave off a WS acting out his/her natural inclinations towards adultery is to super-enable his/her EN addictions. Not the way I want to live any longer.

Aph,

Divorce your wife.

CN

Hah, so I'll shut up? lol.

OK.

Bob, I hope you won't mind me treading in here, very carefully.

I am sorry that you're still having such a hard time. You can't change Squid. The behaviors she exhibits that are so hurtful probably existed before her affair. It's just that your tolerance is so much lower now due to the fallout from the affair. Add to that Squid's feelings of disgust with herself, possible hormonal changes...well, you get the picture.

I like Pepperband's suggestion of counseling....if you could find a good one. Around here, they seem to be needles in a haystack. Children suffer if you divorce or separate. I know you don't want that and would probably rather brave the fires of hell than cause them pain.

One thing I have learned in the last few years is that most marriages have some issues - and not just those marriages that have suffered an affair. The trick is dealing with the issues openly and honestly. Maybe it's my American preconception of the British stiff upper lip, but I imagine you being upset with Squid but deciding just to endure it rather than level with her. I imagine her feeling like a horrible person because of her affair, but not telling you. And the cycle continues. Perhaps I am wrong.

Anyway, some of what you describe sounds like Squid being angry with herself and taking it out on you. As a FWW, (or WW as Aphelion would have it) I can tell you that it's easy to self-loathe.

Take care.

Aphelion, I'm not going to blow any colored smoke.

But I wonder about your nihilistic attitude toward your marriage. Perhaps it's the fact that your wife had a vlta as you put it, different than the standard affair. Or that she was so cold to you (you related some things she said which were incredibly cruel. But be assured, you're getting some payoff out of staying in your marriage, and it isn't just that you get to be with your son.

You say that the WSs on this site protest too much. I see the same tendency in you.

Take care.

Sorry
but I believe that Alph is more correct than not.

His words about this is who they are and mostly have been ..........yep & Yep.

{as a slight aside}
Just cause someone came up with a made up definition about "the fog" ....it still doesn't take away that all the actions taken, lies told and hurtful words spoken .....were indeed done by YOUR SPOUSE.
Sadly It wasn't an alien, they were not insane and they did not become another identity.
Nope .....like it or not ....it was them. Every last bit.

Now how one processes and deals with that, I guess is up to the individual.
{Hence, I do understand the appeal of blaming things on "the fog" as it helps with the resentment issues .....I just don't subscribe to needing that OUT myself}

Now
(in regards to more of what Alph was referring too}:
With the overwhelming # of infidels out there in the universe .........the insignificant # that actually can and do change (fundamentally at the core, not just putting on a good front or a clever mask) ......I'd state that this small number almost makes them THE anomaly....rather than the rule.

Honestly,
even here on a web site devoted to improving and saving marriages from infidelity ......we still have Loads and Loads of phonies, fakes and for lack of a better term ,
Half Steppers (meaning those who kind of buy into MBing, but only the parts they decide they Want to do).
Sorry but that's not Real Change.

Its still reeks of selfishness .....and selfishness is one of the corner posts of Adultery.

Actually many times
you can tell the (not really) [F]WSs just by the advice they give and the overall tone of their posts.

Just to keep it brief,
one great example is WS's that don't condone informing whichever BS doesn't know about the A.
This just shows how they *still* don't get it.
Which means they haven't changed fundamentally from a WS mentality.

Unfortunately,
its that outlook and mindset that is the issue and problem.....not the current or previous OP.
Indeed, its that overall attitude which is where the entire situation all starts from.
Remember,
you don't have to be currently boinking someone to be a WS.
Indeed, One is wayward long before any cloths come off or even lies are told.
Hence
one can Still Be WayWard long after one has returned home & changed some phone numbers and email addresses.

Now to the VERY Few of you out there (that are the less than whatever %%%) that truly have made the changes needed .........This post is NOT directed at you at all.
So to you faithful few, I say "Good job & carry on".
Truly wish there were more of ya.

On the other hand,
since I haven't mentioned any names at all ........then for any out there that still harbor wayward thoughts and sympathies .......simply sit back, relax and keep quiet ....and no one will know that its You that still think/feel that way.

Although unfortunately,
more of you are out there than anyone would care to admit.

As much as it saddens me i believe this as well.

No not at all. Post all you want. It just seems to me that you have so much hate/resentment/whatever for her that you will never heal. I don't think you want to heal either or perhaps it is that you just can't. So the rational action would be to move on. Maybe you can find a woman without sin to marry.

CN

Hi Bob.

Just a few words, perhaps a few things to think over.



Your feelings and thoughts sound about the same as mine were about the same length of time into recovery as you are.

But please note that I said "recovery," not "recovered."

I wasn't recovered then and neither, it would seem, is your marriage.

THE issue that still seems to be remaining is actual, real, CHANGE. What I am hearing from what you've posted is "more of the same old behavior" coming through again now that your wife has gotten to the point in HER recovery that she believes you do love her and you won't just "walk out the door."

She is "reverting to form" because there is still work that needs to be done in CHANGING the past behaviors. If you'll pardon a cliche', "been there, know what you're feeling."

The "problem" is a marriage problem as well as an individual problem.

And that is where a relationship with Christ also comes in. If she is reluctant to make changes for YOU, what do you think about her willingness to make changes FOR Christ, who made the "ultimate change" for all of us?

Back last December, I think, you and she went to a church related "encounter" type of thing that seemed to have a profound effect on her. Has that "worn off" in the "day to day" grind of living?

I don't know if she wants to continue working on rebuilding your marriage or not, but if you think she might, I would recommend a book called "Magnificent Marriage" by Josh McDowell.

There are also one or two others that I haven't looked at in several years that I remember. One in particular dealth heavily with this issue of being a "wife" and the differences between men and women. If you would like that one let me know and I'll try to dig up the book and get the title for you.

Recovery, Bob. Not recovered.

Man how I hate those days when the "toss in towel" feelings just seem to close in.

God bless, and hugs ((((Bob Pure))))

Thats an irrational way to look at the situation and I know you know it. Those are all the posters who have registered here over 12 years.


You know me better than that. If you don't, then you have been smoking too much hoochie weed.

And on that subject, I do wonder if there is some kind of subtance abuse going on here? There has to be some explanation why an intelligent, normally well reasoned man, says the irrational, bitter things I have read in your posts here. There is an irrational aspect coupled with a DEEP BROODING that is indicative of substance abusers who are emotionally self obsessed. I could be dead wrong, but I sense something more going on here.

What is going on, Alph?

That is not from their wishful thinking, but from my own personal observations. I can smell bull**it a mile off. I sniff it out like a bloodhound. Those 6 are at the top of my list of those who don't stink. There are others, but I know those the BEST. Some I have met in person.