The FACT of adultery never does go away. We cannot "undo" the past, things we wish we might have done differently, etc. The past IS the past.

But adultery is VERY personal and extremely hurtful at every level. It is a "severe trauma" to the BS on the same sort of level as rape would be to a woman.

Now the "effects" you refer to CAN "go away," but it requires changes to "make them go away."




That's unfair and uncalled for, Aph.

Several people are "still here" because they try to help out others because THEY received help when they needed it. IF the "affects" you refer to are the same things "knowledge gained through the school of hard knocks," then "yes" the affects are still present. Let's get this straight, Aph, most likely NONE of us would ever have found MB, let alone joined up, if adultery of one type or another were NOT present at some point in our lives. There would have been little reason even look for such a site as MB.



Would you like another opinion? It's one I have shared from time to time over the years. I personally find it hard to believe that anyone can recover their marriage WITHOUT Christ being the center of that marriage and their relationship with Him as the "most important" relationship personally.

And THAT has a LOT to do with "changed lives" and "forgiveness" of wrong-doing. It has lot to do with WHO we "live our lives for" and what it means to be forgiven, as well as being a true forgiver.

Holy cow, Mel. ‘scuse me. Took me a while to stop laughing.

That is a hard to larboard tack.

OK, I’m not dizzy.

I assure you, I am abusing neither substance nor self. Not things, not people, not even small furry pets.

Really.

I simply took the rose-colored MB glasses off a while back.

The world of adultery, real-world recovery from adultery, is not even close to being anything like the threads a newbie will read here.

Most, if not all, recoveries aren’t.

I’ll find those other real-world studies for you.

No, I am much, much closer to that indifference state.

I simply do not believe anything any WS or FWS says. In anything. All, every statement from a WS or FWS, forever, requires confirmation. Even the time of day. But especially when they say they are recovered.

Don't put words on my fingertips, CM. Replace sin with adultery - maybe I might agree to write that some day.

And maybe not.

Much better to remain unmarried, actually.

ok, I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, because you truly do sound irrational and tied to SELF. I find it hard to comprehend.

And no, I don't believe that recoveries are not real, because I know better. The worst people can change and I am a living example.

And FH is right about why I stay here. [thanks FH ] I get enormous personal satisfaction out of helping people here. I have been richly blessed by Marriage Builders and I sincerely wish the same for others.

Aph - you really are projecting your own bitter experience here. Your experience may resonate wih many people but it does not make it a rule.

You people are scaring me

Not sure who "you people" are, but WHAT is scaring you, and WHY?

People who have been in recovery for a long time and they still havent got over it.

It scares me because I have only just got to 3 months and I so don't want to be still feeling like this in years and years.
Maybe I shouldnt read this thread

I agree!!!!
Don't read this thread.
It will suck the life out of you.

The fact is, all the people here complaining about their recoveries did not have spouses fully engaged with the MB program.

That makes the world of difference. Many of them should have divorced when it was obvious their spouse would not join them in recovery.

But you are not in that situation Lil so my advice is to ignore this negativity.

lildoggie - ditto to what bigkahuna said.

NOBODY wants to be feeling like this in years to come, but there are NO "guarantees." But if you both work at recovery, at making needed changes, at learning to "fall in love again," it doesn't have to apply to YOU.

But if YOU want to feel this way in a few years, then DON'T do what is necessary. Don't keep the threefold promise you, as a Betrayed Spouse, make when you choose to forgive your spouse.

Remember this truth...."garbage in, garbage out." You want the program to run smoothly, get rid of the "bugs."

BK, FH

I hear you and I'll sit this thread out. I think Flick is engaged and I think we'll make it.

I hope the rest of you find what your looking for.

Well i don't particularly like feeling this way myself.

I feel my FWH is remorseful, he is transparent with his activities and phone and etc, he does lots of things to show me he loves me and he is sorry for the pain he caused me.

I also feel that i owned up to my short comings and have tried to change them as well and actually we get along quite well and have a good M.

But like i stated in my earlier post, my FWH has always had some very "selfish" ways and i just "overlooked" them because i loved him and the good parts seemed to outway the bad parts.

Since the A though i am not as willing to "overlook" his "selfish" ways. It is as if i feel because of what he "did" to me and i took him back and forgave him that he should do get rid of thos "selfish" ways. But is that realy right of me? Am i asking too much? I dunno.

Aphelion - if you are looking for "guarantees" of a successful end result to attempts to recover a marriage, then I would agree with you that "there is way too much flowery pink smoke being blown up BS rectums in this adulterous world."

If fact, if you are looking for "guarantees" of a successful Marriage, there is way too much flowery pink smoke being blown up Engaged Couple's rectums in this "world" that is increasingly anti-marriage, anti-commitment, and pro-"do it if it feels good to you."

However, to the argument you are trying to make, let me simply toss in that I know of many "members" of MB who have had both failed attempts at recovery and successful attempts at recovery who no longer post on MB.

What was a major difference between the successful and unsuccessful recoveries? That would seem to be a better sort of question for you to ask than making unfounded opinions based on your own situation apply to everyone else, especially to those "new" to the struggle of dealing with infidelty and recovery.



So you, therefore, ascribe to and endorse the "Fear" that virtually all Wayward Spouses feel, "You will never get over it no matter what I do." Is that right?

If not, then WHAT does it take to have a successful recovery and finally reach the point where your marriage IS recovered, even though the FACT that infidelity DID happen in the past?



This, more than anything else, shows that you have a real lack of understanding about marriage, people, and recovery.

1. Infidelity is NOT the same thing as Alcoholism. Addiction is.

2. You ever get, or know anyone who has gotten, "falling down drunk and did something that they regretted?" Then they "swore off" drinking and committed to CHANGING their lifestyle to AVOID a reoccurence?

3. Sex addiction IS similar to alcohol addiction and NO amount of "Recovery Efforts" will be any good until the addiction itself is first addressed. And addressing it INCLUDES a lifelong commitment to "extraordinary measures" to protect against a 'relapse'.

4. "It’s just a matter of time. Even Harley says so. We are all wired for it, right?" Wrong This is yet another of Harley's principles that I strongly disagree with. It is NOT "just a matter of time" for a large number of people, especially to people who are committed to being "on guard" to all temptations in their lives that would lead them AWAY from God and into sin.

5. "Sheesh, it seems as if the only way for a BS to stave off a WS acting out his/her natural inclinations towards adultery is to super-enable his/her EN addictions. Not the way I want to live any longer."

YOU don't have to. YOU don't have to totally misunderstand the concept of meeting someone's Emotional Needs, but you seem to be doing so from this sort of statement.

What you are "equating" here is the same sort of nonsense that "performance in bed" makes someone a "good lover." LOVE is itself an action verb, not a noun and not "just feelings." You seem to be playing in a "zero sum" mentality and LOVE transcends "zero sum" and has increasing returns that far exceed "you do this and I do that" sort of "score keeping."

If you really think that a successful recover is restricted to Emotions, emotional responses, and feelings, then there is little wonder in my mind why you think it's "impossible" to recover from infidelity.

Aph, there ARE some things that are impossible for Man to do, but with God ALL things ARE possible.

It is one of the reasons why I am such a strong believer in the "Triangle of Marriage" reality, even though many people don't want it or don't want to consider it.

Agree. In addition, I believe that there is a world of difference between someone who has an affair and when caught can immediately see the horror of their ways and stop immediately. Chances are good, and I know this myself, that this kind of WS was plagued by guilt throughout the affair because they knew that it is wrong, but they just hadn't hit bottom yet. Chances are also good that this kind of spouse will buy into a program like MB that lets them save their marriage.


This is a good question to keep in mind when reading MB. The kind of WS that I describe above is a far cry from a WS who when caught simply either 1)takes the affair further underground and lies that it's over or 2)continues to pursue the affair in the face of their BS's pain. Sure, these kinds of affairs may end eventually, and the WS come to his/her senses, but the trauma to the BS has to linger.

I know that it's often said that the BS has to take charge of recovery since the WS is the one who drove the marriage into the ditch. But! My husband was in no shape to take charge of anything after Dday, as he will freely admit. If I had expected him to steer us toward recovery, I don't think we would be as far along as we are now. The WS has to actively engage.

Lil Doggie, your H sounds engaged to me.


IMHO, overlooking his selfish ways before the affair sounds like sacrifice to me, on your part.. Dr. Harley says sacrifice is a marriage killer and he is so right. All it does is build up resentment, which is toxic.

StillCrazy, have you communicated your feelings about your husband's selfishness to him? He deserves to know that his actions are making you unhappy. Have you come to him with specifics?

Please, if anyone has quoted "bits & pieces" of my original post, PLEASE REMOVE IT. It most definitely IS SCARING NEWLY RECOVEREDS (which is SO NOT what I wanted to accomplish).

(BTW, thanks ALP, for removing my quotes. I appreciate it!)

My recovery story is NOT ALL ABOUT hair in my salad-- i simply posted feelings that sometimes still creep up and TRIGGER me (nine years post d-day)-- BUT it's MOST CERTAINLY not every day, it's not even every month, not EVEN every year that I have these feelings!

I originally posted my response based on this question from BobPure: "Hi ! Looking for thoughts from 2-year plus recovered BS's whose recoveries haven't gone as far as they hoped."

And, while my recovery has never "gone as far as I had hoped," we ARE STILL GOING (and I will NEVER GIVE UP ON MY MARRIAGE OR QUIT LOVING MY H just because I can't forget certain TRIGGERS, or how things once were, or how things might ALWAYS make me feel sad and/or bitter). Despite my flaws, and despite my H's flaws, we truly LOVE each other-- and have a loving, HOPEFUL marriage.

On the other hand, I felt that BobPure needed someone to validate his feelings-- and I can certainly DO THAT FOR HIM (as I have felt, and continue to SOMETIMES FEEL (albeit rarely these days), similar feelings towards my H that Bob feels towards his Squid).

And maybe my point should have been that some of this affair crap stays with you for a very long time-- but that it doesn't necessarily DEFINE the marriage (or how you view your spouse) in the furture. It's just there. and maybe it will never go away? Kinda like when you're a kid and your dog gets ran over by your uncle-- you just don't forget that (but I certainly DO NOT REMEMBER it when I see my uncle each Christmas-- it just sometimes comes to mind if someone mentions their first dog as a kid, or if I see a dead dog on the side of a road... ya'know?)

The truth of what I believe regarding my own personal recovery, is this: One of these days my M, our recovery, will have GONE FARTHER THAN I HAD EVER HOPED or DREAMED. And, maybe when I'm 50 years post d-day, I'll come back to MB and post about it...

'Cause one day I'm gonna be 82 years old, sitting in my rocker on the porch, with my great-grandchild curled up in my lap, and he/she is gonna ask me how great-gramps and I first met and fell in love...

AND MY STORY IS GONNA BE THE BEST FREAKIN' LOVE STORY EVER TOLD

(and there won't be a single mention of infidelity, triggers, or SALAD in that story!)

Honestly, with each passing year in my life, the infidelity is truly LESS and LESS significant to MY/OUR story... AND THAT IS PROBABLY WHAT I NEED TO BE POSTING.

(and maybe I was wrong-- maybe BobPure needs to hear that MORE than my silly stories of validation...)

Much peace and love, ohmy_marie

Yes i have pre-A and since D-day. There are two things i can think of right away that i have told him bother me emensely and because he does not agree with me chooses to ignore my feelings on the matter so i no longer say anything.

The first one is hanging out with a guy at his work (although it is not very often he still does it against my wishes) whom i am "positive" is having an A with a co-worker. My H's excuse is that "we do not know for sure" and while that is true, it stills bothers me that he does it when he knows i do not like it at all.

The second one is that my H is and has always been a friendly person, however IMHO he is "too friendly" with females. It has always bothered me throughout our M and i have told him and he always says that i am over reacting and that he is just talking to them after all i am standing there when he is talking to them.

So maybe i am wrong and these are not "selfish" things but i do not think so.

Hi Marie !

There are no silly stories if honest an well intended.
Like you I've done more miles down this rocky road than I ever thought I would. Your experiences neither validate nor invalidate my experiences. Mine are mine, yours are yours.

I could write reams of junk, but my situation is summed up perfectly by Comfortably Numb above. I have a wife problem, not a marriage problem. I have to decide if that is something I can change, or live with if I can't. I suspect that I can't.

While a select bunch of folks are blessed with the right ingredients and attitudes to build a magnificent recovery together after adultery, i have come to believe that another select bunch need a miracle to achieve the same. Some WS will never earn their "f" fully, some BS will never be able to stand upright again after the undefended gut punch of being cuckolded.

Hindsight is 20/20 vision, I know, but in retrospect I think we are sadly part of the latter bunch.

I was too hurt by the loss of lifelong monogamy: too dependent on Squid: too incapable of putting the past behind me to ever get over this. Squid was and remains too, erm, SOMETHING to work on changing herself.

I should have ended the affair then divorced. But that was then, this is now. And there have been some lovely moments we have share since d-day.

My challenge now is to unemotionally consider what I can bear and what I cannot. I know the kids are far better off with us together than divorced, but at some point my own peace of mind has to count for something. Dr H says sacrifice is not a sustainable MB behaviour.

I'd be interested if anyone has contact with newlife07. She moved out of the house. I'd like to know her experiences of that in case anyone is in contact, please.

Anyway i DO regret posting. I hate to dishearten anyone new to this I can only reiterate what BigK said that when both spouses are on board this MB stuff works brilliantly

All blessings

Hey Bob! My computer has been down because of an extremely stupid reason. My son came home from college yesterday and fixed it in a second. And I have no time to properly respond right now. However, you wrote:

"Anyway i DO regret posting. I hate to dishearten anyone new to this I can only reiterate what BigK said that when both spouses are on board this MB stuff works brilliantly"

I posted hear years ago, and I still feel this way, that people here who are not fully recovered still need support. So I'm telling you to please get over this attitude you have. You are facing some big decisions and how many people actually know exactly what you have gone through and are going through better than us? You know it is exactly the attitude that if we BSs aren't 100% happy and recovered that has kept me from posting here on MB some of my unresolved recovery issues that rear up every now & then, like now. We can't fix a problem unless we name it, understand it, and then face it head on. Denying it, avoiding it, repainting it ain't gonna work. That's one thing I've learned from this friggin mess. So I hope you don't disappear again.

Ya know, I realize marriage itself is a difficult prospect at times for many reasons. Maybe the reasoning that all of us living longer, instead of kicking the bucket in our 40s, makes M even harder to sustain. Add adultery into the mix to just complicate and confuse things even more.

Hi CN! I actually did get a job in Sept. I am buried in paperwork. We'll see if I last the 6 months probation. Forget about being a well prepared, good therapist. It's all about the paperwork! It has been nice getting a pay check, and I'm saving H lots of money in insurance. Hope you're well!

CV

DELIGHTED you're earning

Move to the UK and we'll be your first clients

I really do think I have a wife problem. Or she has a Bob problem. Or summat.

Not convinced its a M issue. She be freewheelin' br'a.

"Move to the UK and we'll be your first clients"

Bob, I'm not working with any married folk, at least not yet. I'd probably drive them out of the M because of everything I've been through. I need more time and space. Although it's kind of funny, this job is doing the 2 things I said I would never do, work with kids in their homes. Ever see the show "The Nanny"? That's me. I swear I'm not kidding. It's an insane job, but kind of fun if not for all this stupid paperwork. Of course it's way too soon to see if I'm any good at it.

"I really do think I have a wife problem. Or she has a Bob problem. Or summat."

Bob honey, it doesn't matter if it's a wifey problemmo or a hubby problemmo. If it's a problem for one of you, and you're Med, than it's a M problem. It's that simple. Also, some here might not agree with me, however, if the FOO issues are big enough the S who has them will have difficulty jumping into a behavioral approach like MB. The resistance is so great because of his/her fear, that truthfully it's probably not even conscious that they keep on sabatoging the R. What's familiar, even if it's dysfunctional, feels safe because that is what they did to survive their pain in their childhoods. Squid had a horribly dysfunctional childhood. I'm sure she has huge abandonment issues. You can set the boundery that she needs to get help because you are incredibly unhappy. I told you once, I think, that I looked up Imago MCs in the UK. I highly respect Harville Hendricks who created Imago Therapy. If you both did that type of therapy the MC would incorporate the past dysfunction with current behavioral strategies. It's a nice combination and I know those therapists pay a lot of money out of pocket to get trained, which tells me they are at least dedicated.

Anyway, it's not easy being Med to someone who has these issues. My guess is that most WSs have something going on that causes them to fall for the A addiction. Some extra hole in their soul. The sucky thing for we BSs is that even an incredibly remorseful WS, IMO, will not be able to fully grasp and empathize what this experience does to a BS. Maybe the FWSs who post here are different. I know my friend CN put himself into some very dark places with me in order to better understand. I think that is the exception.

The other thing I've been thinking about is this. Recently I saw a bunch of people on TV talking about what they would do if their Ss cheated on them. The typical response, none of what we all have done here. Fought for our Ms, lived through months of humiliation while our WSs pined away for the OP, etc. You get my point. I realized to a lot of folks out there a BS who does this is kind of looked at as a loser wimp. Instead of seeing the strength it takes to go through this, the Christy Brinkley's are way more admired than the Hillary Clintons for sticking it out. And every now and then it's difficult not to wonder if we got it backwards here. We'll never know what our lives would look like now if we had said Adios immediately. Yet the ones who did do that won't know the reverse either.

OK, I'm way too gabby this evening. See, I miss talking to my old MB buddies who I know get all this. No one else would.