i haven't access to anything. no keylogger access the computer is like breaking into fort knox. she is no longer listed on his my space and his mood is "forgotton" poor pos! he's no longer on his either after a fight we had.

your comments are dead on...i'm starting to lose my love for her because of the lies and suspicions. at this point she's telling me it's over but i really have no proof. she's out of town until next week and before she left she told me she loved me deeply and was really confused about her life. "the change" is beginning to take place and she has all of the signs...mood swings, hot flashes.

a friend asked me how long i waited to find her the other day and i stated 38 years he then said if i truly loved her i would wait it out...but i'm losing love and patience and don't know what to do next. have looked into the keylogger but as i stated access to her computer is difficult because it never leaves her side even takes it into the bathroom when showering.

thank you all for you help

Ouch, that really says it all doesn't it? There is no reason for her to take it into the bathroom besides a desire to hide it from you. The affair has just gone further underground. Its definitely not over.

I remember the first time I picked up my wife's phone before I really suspected her affair. She positively freaked out trying to get it back, playing all the "I'm hurt you don't trust me" cards. I gave it back.

If I had the benefit of this site and been able to recognize the signs, my response would have been more like "I'm checking this phone and if you try to take it away from me, I'll smash it into a thousand pieces."

It sounds like you are letting your wife off too easy. Just take her computer and tell her to deal with it. Her actions caused your distrust and her behavior with her computer makes you very uneasy. How she reacts will answer a lot of your questions. Living in limbo is awful, believe me I know. The sooner you force the situation, the better for your own mental health.

That says it all right there.

The absolute best possibility I can think of is she's NC with OM but is saving memorabilia (i.e. old emails, photos, etc). That would be bad because it would mean her heart and energies are not in the marriage, but in "memory lane" with OM (puke, puke).

But I don't think the absolute best is what's going on.
Have you considered Plan B? You are past ready for it.

If you DO do Plan B, don't just jump into it - consult here. There are right ways to do Plan B and wrong ways, and if you do a halfway job of it, it's worse than doing nothing at all.

OMG.....and WHERE is she????.....to me this is even MORE important than her keeping her computer on her like white on rice......

not2fun

ps....I never had access to my WS computer either. Once I did figure out the password (through a keylogger on MY home computer...), it didn't really MATTER, because I had already found them together.....

He is NOT ready for Plan B. He hasn't done a good enough Plan A.......he has not applied the stick......He is only ready for Plan B because emotionally he is drained....

I begged for Plan B....I CRAVED Plan B....I was about the only BS on here that wasn't AFRAID of Plan B but that was only because I was AFRAID to face the truth......

not2fun

IDWAD,

I think you need to take advantage of this "trip". Yes, I am willing to bet it all that she will be seeing POSOM while she is gone. You can tell me NO all you want, but I am so ABSOLUTELY positive about this that I would be willing to my 42lbs. back over it (and that is saying a lot....).

My WS took 3 trips while out of town. I found out AFTER Cday that all of those trips included COW. The first trip, he was "supposedly" in KC, seeing some friends of ours. Nope....he went to FL. to be with HER. He even called me during this trip BEGGING for my forgiveness, asked me if I wanted to know ANYTHING about the affair (which he then lied at every question), and even cried. The next day he came home and moved out.....

The next trip, he was "supposed" to be in CA, on business. Nope, again, in FL. with HER, begging HER to stay with him (she had tried to break it off....). The night before he left, we had a major talk about us and our relationship, what we could do to make things better, talk of reconcilliation, even had sex. Then he went home, booked the flight and the next day took off. Missed our DD14 birthday. Called me constantly, was having a nervous break down, blah blah blah....(its all here on my first thread.....). Only found out the truth after Cday at a MARRIAGE CONFERENCE......

The point is, your wife is an addict. The OM is her drug. She is needing her fix and even IF she is in contact by email and phone, it is not enough. And she will continue this pattern indefinately. It is called fence-sitting, cake-eating and just plain crap......

Your WW is not unique. Your situation in not unique. The TIMING with the holidays is not unique. Your WW being peri-menopausal is just an EXCUSE.....(do NOT get me started on that.....stop reading about menopause, she is having AN AFFAIR....menopause did not make her do it.....).....

Hire a PI and get your evidence....

not2fun

and this is why I continue to post....I do not think you are done with this marriage, nor have you given up on your wife. BUT If you do not follow the plans, you will ALWAYS wonder if you should have/could have done something to save the marriage......

Ask those around here that are divorced and worked the plans.....they have come to a place of healing because they KNOW they did EVERYTHING they could to give their marriage a chance.

I can say without a doubt today, even if things do not work out, even if WS and I were to divorce tomorrow, I can walk away KNOWING I did everything I could......could you say the same????

not2fun

idontwantadivorc,

If you want to actually save your marriage, and not just be able to spitefully say, "I told you so", then let me offer what I learned from my sitch.

My FWW had an affair earlier this year, with all the symptoms and trappings as yours, except that she never hinted or asked for a divorce (she was a cake-eater, and liked the idea of a hubby and a lover).

What she went through, and what yours is going through, is an infatuation, or limerence. She is having intense romantic feelings for OM, which she can't control. It is caused by a flood of neurotransmitters that are being releasing in her brain, that have a similar effect and are addictive as amphetamine. This causes the "drunk on the emotional high" you described. My FWW described it as "giddy euphoria". That is why she thinks OM is her soulmate, kindred spirit, or whatever term she likely has used.

The good news is that an infatuation eventually wears off. The brain just can't maintain the production of those neurotransmitters. The bad news, though, is that it ordinarily takes 6 months, and can take 2 years or more.

But, if you truly want a chance to save your marriage, you must be prepared to endure at least the six months after the infatuation began (which I think you said elsewhere was early August).

During that time, you should adopt a Plan A. You said elsewhere that you did, but she didn't end contact. Keep in mind, a Plan A doesn't guarantee an instant 'no-contact'. Dr. Harley acknowledges that while under the fog (the infatuation), that the WS will find it very difficult to end contact, and if they do, often backslide several times and resume the A.

However, the infatuation will eventually end, and with it the euphoric high. She will then be able to look at you, and at him, in a more realistic and rational way. She will once again be able to see and appreciate your good points, and see and appreciate the bad points of OM (neither of which she is now capable of doing, believe me). It is then, when the infatuation wears off, you have the best chance of saving your marriage. If you did all the things you were supposed to during the Plan A (ESPECIALLY no angry outbursts or other love busters), then there is a good chance she would come back to you.

However, as you are finding, being patient and considerate while she is cheating on and lying to you is very, very hard. My FWW, 4 months after ending the A, now says she is more in love with me now than ever in our marriage. She is contacting our priest to renew our wedding vows. She repeatedly apologizes for what she did, and thanks me for being patient and hanging in there while she was behaving so. She admits she would have been miserable had I divorced her (and see knowsI was about ready to, 4 months after dday). She now can't understand herself in what she saw in him. Her A was 6 months long (1 month EA, 5 months PA).

Now, I'm not saying do nothing, as some on this board have inferred in the past. Plan A does have its stick, such as exposure and disabling the AP's ability to contact each other. But, beyond that, and carrying out the "carrot" elements of Plan A, what you'll need most is patience.

Good luck!

My FWW would disagree. She said she liked the cards, presents and flowers. She especially liked when I outdid OM with 3 dozen roses over his 2 dozen (which she kept well hidden and I didn't know about). I agree, though, that you must not appear clingy and needy. The trick is to do it randomly and unexpectedly, so she's suprised.

IDWAD,

**edit**

I stand corrected. I just went back through this thread and I see that in two months IDWAD has gotten excellent advice and repeatedly ignored it:

1. Expose (hasn't done that)
2. Plan A (has bought flowers and cleaned the house, doesn't know what wife's ENs are; continues to LB)
3. Don't make any big decisions (keeps talking about filing)
4. Don't facilitate the end of the M (keeps talking *to WW* about filing)
5. Snoop and get evidence (keeps making excuses why he can't)
6. Don't finance the A (as far as I can tell, he's still doing this)

He's been asked many direct questions yet answered very few of them. So you're right, he's nowhere ready for Plan B. He's still floundering and making critical mistakes.

Thanks Turtle....I actually was only repeating the same words a certain wise person on here said to me way back when. Many were saying I should do Plan B, but Mimi was making sure I finished Plan A properly.


IDWAD,

Thing is this, no matter what you would decide to do, I would support that decision and help in any way I can. You could go and get that divorce and you would be well justified in doing that. For those that do I think its because they know what they can handle. Seeing as though you are on here and attempting to do the Plans, I am going by your screenname that that is not what you want, at least not at this time.

And hey, that's okay too. As a BS, you go through a miriade of emotions. There were many many days I wanted to give up. Heck, I am 6 months of recovery and there are still times I want to do that. This crap is hard. I totally feel for you, and if I didn't....well, I would bother posting to you.

But I will tell you this, while you are trying to figure out what to do, it is always good to have a PLAN. They give you direction and goals......

With that, I will leave you with this one last thing.....

"All that is need for evil to triumph, is for good men to do nothing...."

not2fun

FYI
i have exposed to everyone i know and of course no one is wanting to get involved. am meeting en's and have seen improvement. have not talked about filing to her in a while now.
am still snooping but attorney advised not to do keylogger since the computer was a gift from her parents not considered our property. it's her's and there are legal ramifcations with that.
no more camp it is over for the winter except for day rides and i have gone on those with her.

am re-reading surviving an affair and working plan a to the letter.

hope this clarifies turleheads quotes.

welcome your feedback

Stop letting her cake eat.

Do something.

IDWAD,

How is are YOU doing??? How is Plan A going and what have you done for YOU lately???

I know how hard it is to be dealing with all of this at this time of the year.....hang in there....and lets us know how its going....

not2fun

not2fun

thank you for asking...i'm doing okay. am still working plan A but have also started to include a plan from the book **edit**. And i am not financically supporting any more trips to the horse camp because it is over for the season in fact this weekend we have to clear out our site completely. i have also read **edit** and he suggest i agree with everything she says. she hasn't mention the divorce recently only that she doesn't want me spending money on her because while she was on a trip to visit some of our old friends out of state and i know for sure she was not meeting the other posm. i gave her a birthday party before she left so the kids and i could celebrate with her then sent her a gift on her actual birthday to which she was upset that i had spent the money for that since we had already celebrated it. but i was viewing it as meeting part of her en's. anyway i am planning to take a week away in order to give her a dose of reality without me around. i'm not leaving town just staying at a friends house in order to clear my head. it will force her to take the kids to school every morning which requires getting up at 5:30 in the morning and picking them up from school too. plus all of the household stuff i normally do. in **edit**'s book he offers an interesting slant which is to tell her “Sweetheart, I prefer that the marriage work,
but you’re one hundred percent correct. It’s totally impossible. It’s totally impossible, so I will help you find an apartment and help you move out.” **edit**. i am also ready a book on children and divorce and if i decide to follow through with this method i am giving her that book to read too as she needs to know how it will effect their lives.
until now i've only said i don't want it to end. but the truth of the matter is i don't want to be in a loveless marriage. So the way i see it is i have nothing to lose by trying this. she recently told a friend of ours that she didn't want to have to get a job and that we couldn't afford to divorce. well in my mind i can't see staying with anyone who doesn't love you. i have been working on myself mentally and physically and have lost over 32 pounds and am working out. the weight loss is of course from the stress of this whole thing. she also told the friend and even told me how "Lucky" she was to have all that she has...well i don't want someone who feels "lucky" i want someone who is truly in love with me. i'm still snooping and haven't found anything lately in fact she's been staying home since returning from her trip. we have another birthday coming up and thanksgiving and of course christmas and i'm am never letting her see me down only happy and up as if i'm moving on with my life and in a sense i am because i deserve to be loved. sorry to ramble on so much.

she is showing signs that plan a is having some effect. i brought home flowers last night and that was a huge success. i am not telling her i love her or mention the D word just being very nice and not putting any pressure on her whatsoever. no following her around the house in fact i'm actually working on the house to prepare it in the event we don't stay together. because those things have to be done and i also think she is curious as to why i am doing them. my reply has been "it needs to be done" and it truly does because i'm tired of looking at it!

anyway hope i'm not boring you all too much here. i welcome your feedback but must admit i have gotten contradicting advice here too which has been confusing as to what to do. this is really hard.

so....have you all decided to stop offering advice? I haven't done any of the things i listed in my last post except continue to work plan A like crazy and no lb's. am seeing signs of improvement. she's making plans for our summer vacation which is really confusing condsidering less than a month ago she was still wanting to divorce. did i offend you friends? let me know i'm still on the island.

have a blessed and happy thanksgiving.

no, no offense here......

Been really busy trying to do recovery.....

ok, I see you say you haven't done any of that other stuff. GOOD...

The problem with the "reverse psychology" stuff is you have an unknown factor....your WW. You could "try" all of that, but are your prepared to follow through??? If you were to move all of her stuff out and she decides to stay out of the home, are you prepared for that??? And in all honesty, you would have NO IDEA why she was choosing to stay away....

Is it because of POSOM??
Is it because of pride???
Is it because she thinks YOU don't want her???
Is it because......

see where I am going with this???

This is more or less a game of chicken, and unless you are prepared for all the outcomes, you shouldn't play.....

Now, I do not think you are ready for all the outcomes. I do think you want the CHANCE to recover your marriage. I think you do love your W and would like to see your family together. That is why you are still here.

I understand you don't want a loveless marriage. Neither did I. Nor do I now. That's what is so great about the Harley methods. They show us a way to have BETTER marriages than ever.......

But for now, you can't even do that because you have NO IDEA what is going on in Affairland. YOu see you can Plan A forever, but your Taker isn't going to like that. That is why we URGE you to do what is necessary to confront the affair. Now, I will let that go for now, because you know what needs to be done, but it is up to you to do it......

Now, about Plan A and the effects thereof. Everyone around here will tell you all your efforts will go unnoticed, not effect her, make her mad, ect.

Well, in my experience, I say that is not true. It will have effect, just not at the rate or speed you want it to. It also has more of an affect when you are getting the top 2 or 3 AND eliminate LB'S (my biggest problem, even so today....). Go back to Mark's pebble analogy.......It does feel good when you know its working, just don't EXPECT her to fall all over you because of it.....

Right now, you have a PERFECT setting for Plan A. This time of year brings out the sentiments in everyone. Use it to your advantage. Don't go way overboard. Then it will seem suspect or unreal. Take her for a walk in the snow. Enjoy a fire together while listening to Christmas music. Put up some misltoe and "catch" her under it.....

Don't be too pushy for SF.....let her take the lead.

Plan A is hard because your needs WILL go unmet. And even if she does meet one or two, its hard not to want more.....it is all about self-control...........

Then after the holidays, you may want to start thinking about Plan B......

Keep your chin up......you are doing quite well actually.....and don't be afraid to put a shout-out here when you get lost or fall off the horse. It happens to all of us.....

not2fun

BIG NEWS! Thanksgiving eve she told me she didn't want a divorce and wanted to work things out. there is still a lot of work and problems to sort out but it's a step in the right direction. i welcome all comments.

blessings

IDWAD,

Don't try to fix it all at once and realize that she will be very foggy for quite a while.

If she really has ended contact with POSOM then she will experience withdrawal. She will need your help to get through this. (Yeah, it stinks)

If she has any contact with OM at all, her recovery clock will reset to ZERO all over again.

For now, step up anything you might have done well under Plan A while working to establish your own boundaries. You don't unload a bunch of demands on her, but you need to understand yourself what you will and will not accept from her and realize that this might change with time.

Don't spend all your time together working through the affair or trying to make things progress faster than they can right now. Spend any time you get with her doing stuff to rebuild the love between you. Your own LB$ is pretty low and hers is only now accepting deposits. Do fun stuff together more than the hard work of recovery. Fix your Love Banks and the rest will follow more easily. If you focus all your time on problems, both of you will continue to slide further down the slope of Withdrawal (not withdrawal as in the sense of getting over an addiction here, but the State of Withdrawal as described by Dr Harley in his 3 states of mind in marriage)until neither of you cares at all.

If you really are getting a chance for recovery, keep in mind that it is as hard or maybe harder than dealing with the affair. Affairs eventually die on their own, but fixing the marriage after it is over takes a LOT of REALLY hard work.

Be glad for any tiny little victory you can get at first and don't expect this to be over for a while. Once recovery begins for real, which really has to wait for her to get over OM (yep, it still stinks) it will take a couple of years with both of you working together.

Her natural tendency will be to "forget the past and move forward." It will take a lot longer that way and may never happen at all.

Mark