Really appreciate this Neak and Sugar. This may be short but I'll be better able to reply tomorrow. Yesterday we had a good day, went for a cycle all of us together. Then had a nice meal and WH and I watched a film together. Then we had a conversation together (on his insistance) about us and our M and it was going quite well except when OW came up in the conversation. He is still very protective of her and believes for example that all she really wants is a few words of kindness and no more.

I really do believe that he is being honest with me when he says that he is not getting in touch with her of his own accord but I wouldn't be surprised if he concealed contact originating from her although he denies it. I suspect she will turn up tomorrow but this time I think she'll try a physical appearance. It's been 3 weeks since he's actually seen her and men are very visual creatures so she will probably want to see him. He is working Mon to Thurs this week although out of the office for Tues and possibly Wed. Then on Friday I got him tickets for a concert for his birthday and we're taking the whole day off together. The next week is school hols and friends offered this holiday home for a few days and then we are going to Ireland for my sisters wedding (PILs are coming to look after children) all that was to say that from Thurs he'll be out of the office for 10 days and the 10 days before her supposed departure to Ireland.

Today I went to a conference on the environment leaving him with the kids but when I got back I told him that I had got a letter from the blood bank during the week asking for blood and I told him that I was annoyed that he had unprotected sex and that he put me in danger. I had to sign a paper at the blood bank to say that neither I nor my H had sex outside of M since my last donation which obviously was untrue. He didn't say much, just continued what he was doing. I let it drop and then he started whistling as he did stuff. I was so fed up that I said 'stop that whistling'. He said 'there's no need to say it like that, just ask'. This kind of attitude is the one that makes me say that I am so mad that maybe the best thing I could do is get out.

Sorry, I'm venting here but I am so tense and worried about everything and although he does make some efforts to reassure me they are far from enough.

See you tomorrow

This tells me how much you are lying to yourself about him having sex with another woman and how much you are enabling it.

" I had to sign a paper at the blood bank to say that neither I nor my H had sex outside of M since my last donation which obviously was untrue."

YOU FEEL YOU MUST LIE TO A BLOODBANK!!!??? GEEZE

Sorry Stella, I haven't been clear. I didn't lie to the blood bank because I didn't know at the time. I gave blood in June and just go the reminder this week.
have to run

Hey Sugar, nice to meet you too. I haven't slowed down enough yet to say how good I thought your earlier post on here was. I think it was very important information, not only for Tully, but many others also.

Regarding the missing post, it was yesterday between your 4:01 pm and your 5:04 pm post. It was just a couple of sentences, the basic idea recommending a divorce.

I looked at all her posts from yesterday, and that post wasn't there. Had a mod edited it, there would be a notation. I think it's probably been deleted. If I had been sure that Tully hadn't already read that discouraging (and mysterious) post, I wouldn't have bothered to say anything.

And Tully, I admire the grace you showed when accused of being a low-down lying-to-a-blood-bank sort of person.

Stella, before you can lead or guide someone into finding peace, you first need to find that peace yourself. I wish you all the best with that, and pray that God will be with you. Please make the effort to post constructively, without crudity or personal attacks.

If someone advised divorce on this thread, it was not me. And you cannot edit or delete a post without a notation.

I did not do it!

I still think this poster should expose, expose, expose her husband so as to end the affair. And exposing the other woman would be good too, suing them would really crush the affair.

Use the cheater husband's money to start a law suit. Let him feel the pain he has caused.

I don't know about deleting, but you can certainly edit without a notation. I do it regularly when I find a typo or something in a post that could be improved with a little fiddling. Not saying that you did, Stellakat, only that it's possible. The option to avoid an edit notation is right at the bottom of the box.

If I'm mistaken, I apologize.

It is possible to entirely delete a post without leaving a notation. I've done it before when I accidentally posted the same post twice in a row. :twobyfour: Of course, no use keeping it secret now that I've gone and told everybody.

Hey guys, can we get back to talking about me, me, me?

Where was I? Of course I will not lie to the blood bank when I do go to give blood next time. But I just wanted to highlight to WH that he had not only endangered my life but also other people's. (although I'm sure they must do all the tests before transfusing)

About divorce. I am not ready to divorce yet, except for during some black moments during the day and night. The reasons for this are the following:
1. I had a great relationship and marriage for over 18 years and I don't want to throw that away just because I am hurt and angry right now. I would prefer to make a cooler decision based on the unlikelihood of getting that relationship back.
2. I have 4 small children who are very close to their father and I think that there is already too much selfish behaviour in this world and that more people should think a little less of themselves and a little more of others.
3. My WH has been behaving so incredibly badly for the past year that the only way I can reconcile his recent behaviour with the good, kind man I have known for most of my adult life is to believe that he is acting under the influence of an addiction. However, I have told him that if he maintains this attitude long term it is me who will tie a ribbon round his neck and call up the OW and present her with this poisoned present.

Sugar, I am not comfortable with a high degree of spying. As you say, it's no way to live. WH does not have a mobile phone anymore or at least he just borrows it when he is away and travelling and she knows I have the phone quite a bit. I feel that all their contact over the past 2 or 3 weeks has been at work on his work landline. I feel that today she will try to see him though.

Neak, I have exposed to his family, close friends and some work colleagues. I have decided not to tell the Big Boss in Ireland because I want OW to go there and if I tell BB before she leaves then she can't go. I will expose at a later date if necessary.

I will think more about Plan A/Plan B while shopping. I have a few questions and suggestions so I'll post this when I get back.

Hi Tully! I'm glad you had a good weekend. Mine was a bit housework laden, but nice also.

If you don't mind, I am going to talk about me, rather than about you as you have asked. However, I hope you will see that, when I do so, I AM actually talking about you. I can see your going through much of what I went through (without MB, or anyone else, to help me) if you do not prepare yourself for more discoveries. If you read the stories of the posters here you will see just how normal it is for WSs to maintain contact and continue their affair in the face of the BS's heartbreak. You've very likely got more of this to face in the near future, Tully. You must wake up to that fact.

Your H appears to be going through similar behaviour to mine at your stage.

The first year after my D Day 1, in March 2003, was mostly magical. It really seemed as if we were back in passionate love and that our relationship would be better than ever, even than when we were dating. That feeling declined slowly during 2004 and for the last six months until March 2005 I was really unhappy. I could see that recovery was not working out for My H and I was paralysed with fear because I did not want to have to face ending my marriage. I was on the receiving end of horrible coldness, snappiness and distance for 6 months before D Day 2.

Immediately after D Day 2 (in March 2005) my H had to go to Brussels again for 5 days. I knew he would see OW again. I never even thought that I had the right to tell him not to do this. I told him to decide what he wanted while he was away. He should work out with her what they would do about their relationship and let me know when he got back. I let him know that I would not stay in a loveless marriage. He was free to go to her (or have her come to London); I would remortgage the house and buy his share so that he could buy a decent place to live in, and give him as much access to the children as they and he wanted.

He said before he left for Brussels that he did not want to leave me. He said that the few days apart would be good for me to think about what I wanted, but he knew that he wanted to stay with us. He was a bit clinical when he said all this; there was no sign of remorse or horror over what he had done, but he sounded as if he had always known his mind on this. The affair had been a really exciting, thrilling add-on to his already good marriage and life with us. He had never been tempted to leave me for her.

When he came back from the 5-day trip he shocked me by suddenly becoming passionate and intense towards me. His words did not change; he had said before that he wanted to stay, but he went out of his way to be loving towards me. The atmosphere between us from then on was one of sexual intensity, interrupted by hostile bitterness from me to him when my doubts reared up, or when I found evidence of more contact. I would say that the intensity was emotional also; certainly it seemed that way, but I when I found out that the affair had continued (AGAIN after 2005, for another year+) I could see that the emotional closeness had been a facade.

I know that a lot of the intensity from H to me came because he was flattered and actually turned on by the love I and OW both poured over him. He liked, at first, being in the middle of the fight between two women in love with him. In my mind I denied that I was competing with her for him, but I know that he enjoyed what I now refer to as the (rude term for lady parts) war between us.

I think that as the months wore on and she would not go away he began to find her a burden. Her claims that he led her on and caused her to ruin her marriage when he had never had any intention of leaving me hit home eventually. I described a few posts ago how cold she said he was towards her on their final meeting in June 2006.

It seems that, throughout their affair, she had been applying for jobs abroad with the European Commission (for whom she worked, in Brussels). She has long wanted out of her marriage, but she did not seem to have the courage to just leave. She had, for a couple of years, applied for jobs abroad, including, to my horror when I found out, LONDON, so that she could stay married technically but not live with her H, and have freedom in her affair with my H.

I could have had an OW whose existence I was unaware of living in London, with my H visiting her during "trips to Brussels" or during normal working hours...

Well, sometime in 2005, she actually got a job in Luxembourg and was preparing to move there when I found out about the affair (again; D Day 2). She moved to Luxembourg anyway, although she knew that her affair was under threat and that he was not going to leave his wife for her, in September 2005. She had managed to persuade him throughout April - September 2005 to keep the affair going and simply tell me that there was no contact any more. I know that he dumped her at least twice; I saw her heartbroken text messages on the mobile phone that he had to use when he was abroad. I only got a look at this phone about 4 times in the 5 month period, so for weeks at a time I was in the dark about what was going on between them, but I found that he spent nights with her while telling me he was working away.

From September 2005, she would take the train from Brussels early Monday mornings and stay in a rented flat in Luxembourg, and go back to her home late on Friday evenings. She had as little to do with her H as possible, and slept in a spare bedroom when she was at home. Her daughter was away at university but her son was 17 and and in his last year at school. She left a freezer full of pizza for him and her baffled H, and organised for a cleaner to come in weekly, then just ignored them.

I did not know when she moved out of her marital home. H didn't tell me for months. I therefore had no idea that, sometimes when he had to be in Brussels, he would go to Luxembourg the night before and spend the night with her before getting the train to Brussels early the next morning.

I never knew this, Tully, and had no way of finding out, since the occasional mobile phone sighting never revealed this fact and the sexual intensity between us actually increased in 2005-6, as I have told you. I could not tell from his words, his behaviour or anything else, that his affair was continuing after the massive blow that I had already had to deal with after D Day 2. I can think back now and see what absolutely shocking things he did to me in 2005-6, and remember how much in love with me he seemed to be when he did them, and that is why I am urging you not to judge the affair status by your H's behaviour. If he wants to continue the affair he could do so and show more love to you at home than he has ever done. That is what many here have done.

I stayed after D Day 2 for the reasons you listed in your last post. I do understand so well how you feel, and I (and I'm sure Neak, and all those who post here to help BSs) feel that you are right to stay and give your H another chance. We are not, on the whole, telling you to end the marriage. We are trying to stop you from allowing the marriage to end against your will.

In addition to your stated reasons, which I shared, I was prepared to stay with my H until the end of the summer of 2005 (D Day 2 was in March 2005) because my then 15 year-old daughter would be doing her GCSEs that spring (important public exams for UK teens, Neak). A long way up the line, good passes in these exams would be important for her university entrance. Like you, Tully I did not want to be selfish towards the children's needs because of what had been done by my H.

My daughter got good exam results that year and for the next two, and in September this year went off to a top 10 British university. I'm glad I did what I could for her. I think my son (12) deserves the same level of support from us both, which is why I am still here.

I am telling you this so that you can see that I support you in giving the marriage another chance, Tully. I think I did (and am doing) the right thing in doing the best I could for my children. What I did wrong was to mishandle the repeated contact; for example, in not exposing to her H, whom I could have contacted about 6 days after D Day 2, when I did a internet search. I kept her affair secret from him because I was following popular "common-sense" ideas about what should be done after an affair is discovered. I facilitated this affair into another 15 months of sexual contact. This has severely harmed my prospects for marital recovery. There is so much more to resent now, and I'm not sure that I can ever recover from my H's behaviour towards me while I stay married to him. It would be much easier to let it all go if I left.

Once again, I'm telling you not to let yourself get to where I am now. That does not mean leaving the marriage but it does mean being realistic about the brutal things that a WS can do when an affair is continued. It makes do difference that the contact comes from her, and that he would be willing to stop this now, if she would just go away. Your H is sexually addicted to her (as my H described himself about his OW) and if she makes an offer that he thinks you will not find out about, he will accept.

Could she go with him the two days this week that he is away from home? Read my story above again and work out that worst that could happen. If it is possible then it will probably happen.

Tully, is your H's actual birthday this Friday?

Can you guess why I'm asking you this?!

Hi Sugar, glad to hear you had a good weekend although 'housework-laden' and 'nice' sounds like a contradiction in terms . I find it hard to believe that WH could possibly continue to lie to me but then he had lied so much in the past that anything is possible, I suppose. I am filled with horror at your story, Sugar, the very idea that he could do what he did. Has he come to a realisation of what he has done or does he believe that what he did was not all that bad? It seems incredible. I know what you mean about caring for the children and I am prepared to do a lot to protect them but at the same time I'm not sure that I could put up with what you've put up with. (Not that I'm advocating divorce for you - so many people are saying to me how can I possibly forgive what had been done already that it's hard to know what I might do in the future?)

No, his birthday was last week and I gave him the tickets for this concert then. Are you wondering if she might offer him a birthday present.

He is going to a seminar tomorrow and possibly Wed/ Thurs as well. I asked if she could be there and he said no way, it's not her field. He came home for lunch and said that she had not been in touch this morning.

As for Plan A, I see that Dr Harley says that this is a time to try to negotiate without LBs but what I have read here makes me think that it's more of a love-building excercise to make WH realise what he might lose when you withdraw your presence.

And as for Plan B, I'm not sure what to do. The girls have to continue to go to school but if he won't move out then what can I do. Going to my dad's house is a good option but given the way the courts are now, adultery is considered nothing at all but taking children out of the country, even temporarily, is considered a crime so I can't take that risk.
I was thinking that I could ask him to promise that he will move out of the house if he enters in contact with her or I could even get a consent form to allow us to leave the country (easily available in the town hall) and get him to sign it, telling him that I will only use it if he is in touch with her. If he refuses then that tells me something. I would emphasise that it would be temporary until we either reach NC or we reach an acceptatble arrangement with regard to childcare and finances.

Dear Tully,

My H realises that what he did has had a bad effect on me, but I don't think he agrees that his behaviour is appalling per se. It is bad, but not appalling.

If you re-read my first ever post, to MelodyLane, you will see what he has said to me about fidelity not being essential to marriage. I suppose in my post to her I was asking for a discussion of whether the Harley methods can ever really work if someone still has this mentality. My post was too long and my points got lost.

I can see what Mel meant when she says that Dr. Harley has turned both her and her H from freeloaders into buyers, but I don't know about this working for people like my H, and I think there are many of them today. I don't think that Mel and her husband ever got married thinking that a bit on the side is nothing wrong. They might have been freeloaders (as might many here), but I think more so in the sense of taking and not giving in marriage, unless it makes them happy and it is easy to give. When freeloaders get unhappy they bail, and they might have affairs. I don't think, however, that they all hold the views that my H does on having affairs when they are NOT unhappy.

In a peculiar way, my H IS a buyer; he has always maintained that he wanted to stay with me for the rest of our lives, and 19 years (or 14 when the affair started) isn't really a short marriage. We have had difficulties, and I have seen commitment from him. Perhaps, arguably, there is a new kind of buyer these days.

His affair, to him, was okay because it was a way of getting a bit extra on top of a good situation at home. It was not threat to his marriage from his point of view; he felt that it would only be a threat should I ever find out. When I did find out, OW put pressure on him not to stop, and because he thought I could not find out any more (because he thought he had covered his tracks), he continued.

What I was trying to describe in my post to Mel about modern, trendy marriages is that it seems a lot of people nowadays think that a bit of a fling is not so terrible in a marriage. The acceptance of casual sex inside marriage seems to go hand-in-hand with being in favour of casual sex before (and after) marriage. Certainly your H's OW (and mine) have no respect for other people's marriages, and probably for marriage itself. They both behaved like a lot of single people do today; if you fancy someone, get into bed with them. You can build a relationship later if the sex works. The trouble is, our H's behaved just like them. Do they too feel that the state of marriage is nothing special? Do they feel that if it works you are lucky, and if not, you should do what makes you happy?

You said that my post to Mel gave you food for thought. Have you tried to work out where your H stands on sexual behaviour inside and outside marriage? Certainly he was behaving like a single man that evening in Paris. What on earth was he doing taking a woman on a date when he was married? The publication reason is irrelevant. He took her on a date (to Paris, of all places!) to a restaurant, where they would relax and drink alcohol, as if he had no wife at all. He paid for her to have a lovely evening. Would he have done this if his PhD student had been a less attractive woman, or a gay woman, or a man? Why did he think it was acceptable to ask a woman out on a date, and why didn't he tell you that he was doing so? When you add in that he knew for a long time that she was attracted to him, you do need to talk to him about what he understands marriage to be.

Last November my H told me that he was going for lunch with a colleague (a subordinate on his team). I vaguely know this woman; she and I did an evening course together about 10 years ago. Just after my first D day happened (2003), my H saw her in a pub with a mutual colleague. She called him next day to tell him a long story of how she was not having an affair, but her marriage was difficult and the colleague and she had become close friends.

She left H's team but went back late last year, and the lunch was supposed to be a welcome back; just him and her.

He told me this in a restaurant. We argued. He was sorry that I was upset as first, but grew angry when I would not let it drop. We left and argued more in the car on the way home, and it ended in my hitting him a backhander across the cheek and making his eyes water. I was ashamed of my action and of how upset I could still get. He had earlier asked me whether I wanted him to cancel the date and I said "yes". I asked him a few days later whether he had cancelled and he growled "yes. Now leave me alone!" We did not speak for days, and that was the last proper conversation we ever had about the affair.

After so many lies I see no point in asking him about contact or anything else. He is an accomplished liar and he appears to have no conscience. What woud be the point of questions?

Tully, you need to ask Neak what to do about sex in Plan A. You also need to get checked for, and protect yourself against, STDs. I didn't realise my H and OW had had sex without condoms until last June, about a year after their last contact. I have just screwed up courage to rebook an appointment with my GP. Last month I was so embarrassed I could not go through with it, but reading here has shown me how vital a test is, so I am going to try again.

I asked about the birthday because it is my H's this Friday. I nearly fainted when I thought yours and mine had the same birthday!

You're right about the present, though. She is absolutely bound to send him one. She will send it to him at the lab. My H's OW did this after he stopped going abroad for good. There was a period of about two months in summer 2006, after yet another D Day, when he voluntarily told me about contact and brought home the emails she sent to work and also this present (actually, two presents). He then, around November, started saying that there was no more contact, which just was not credible to me. The story of Christmas 2006, above, tells you how I dealt with what I knew.

I think your consent form idea is excellent, but again, I think you need other help on this. Neak, are you around?!

BTW, thndrltng (sorry, spelt wrong; it is short for "thunder and lightening"), is Neak's mum. If you read Neak's thread you'll see how wonderful she has been and is. Did you ever have a relationship like that with your mother? I'm sorry you lost her.

Back later,
S.

Quickly as we have to get homework done. At the moment, Sugar, my WH is kind of like that. He thinks what he did was bad but not absolutely awful although there are moments of lucidity when he sees what he did to me but they don't last. I am so terrified that he will remain like this long after the affair is behind us and I'm not sure how I could deal with this. I have been living in hope that what Dr Harley says is correct and that once he is away from her and over withdrawal that the full realisation will dawn on him. If not then I'm not sure how I will cope.

And yes, I was very close to my mother. She was wonderful and I miss her deeply. She was only 60 when she died.

By the way, you asked once if I could afford MC with the Harleys. Yes, we can. Not that we have all that much money but we could make it available. I did mention it to WH but he refused because he hates the phone (he always has). He said that he'd prefer face to face but we did go to see one and then I went to see one on my own and I didn't like the approach of either of them.

Quickly too:

Tully, can you just stand still for a moment while I whack you around the head with a wet kipper? I don't do this often, but really....

quote:
He is going to a seminar tomorrow and possibly Wed/ Thurs as well. I asked if she could be there and he said no way, it's not her field. He came home for lunch and said that she had not been in touch this morning.

TULLY!

What has the seminar being, or not being, in her field got to do with anything?

The question is not whether she has a legitimate reason to be at the same place, and whether therefore could sex happen by accident, but could they have planned for her to go there and meet him? What is stopping them?

OW's job was not my H's "field" either, but he still went halfway round Europe to spend the night with her when SHE had a legitimate reason to go! Probably after he arrived at lunchtime he would spend the day touring round some nice city while she worked, then in the evening they would go for a nice dinner and then home to bed. Can you imagine anything more romantic, from the affairees point of view? When was the last time you and your H went away somewhere without your kids - and I don't mean to your sister's wedding? Just alone?

I forgot to put Geneva and my own dear city, London as two other places that my H and OW went for their nights away.

Dr. Harley is absolutely firm about nights away being unacceptable in marriage. He writes about the issue somewhere on this site, I think in a letter to either a betrayed wife or husband. If your H goes away without you you might as well accept that he will be having sex with her. You have to stop this, not just now, but permanently.

I know his job is a problem. You either have to find a way to go with him each and every time, or he does not go. He might just be able to go when there is someone there who can be accountable for him. That would basically mean that a colleague who knows about the affair goes too, and reports back to you. They would have to know what he was doing in his room at night. Could this work?

My H did many terrible things to me after the D Days. My knowledge of the affair makes his brazenness so much more cruel. However, yours has done some of the same things that mine has, just without your knowing, and for less time.

He's done the terrible things already. He is quite capable of doing them again. Wake up, please, please.

Sugar, consider me well and truly slapped! The thing is that he is not staying overnight. I didn't mention that but it's a seminar only about 1 hour away so he'll be back home at night. I know I may have to consider going with him the next times he goes away to a conf etc.

Neak, I am reading your story at the moment and can I just get off the point for a moment and say that I was so excited to see that you are an author. I am an aspiring writer myself (having written one novel and finishing off another) I have founded a literary blog with a few others, if you're interested I could send you the link privately. Anyway back to the point.
Neak, do you think my WH will come to his senses in time and understand the extent of his misdoings or will be stay occasionally apologetic but globally hoping that I'll just get over it and move on?

I'm only home for a moment, and will be in and out the rest of the day. I'll answer your questions when I can.

Sex: most important - if you choose to do it, protect yourself. There are many arguments on here as to sex with WS's, but just about everyone agrees to protect yourself from disease and get tested. (You too, Sugar. ) I had lots of sex, and don't feel that it devalued me in any way. Everyone is different, and I've been around here long enough to know you don't have to have sex to meet that need, as long as you at least make it clear you are very interested sexually in your spouse. Lots of fun ways to do that, lots of fun ways of having sex, too, if it's what you want.

Just be responsible, either way.

Soolee has a thread "anyone published here?" on Emotional Needs, Tully. Some interesting publishing links are mentioned.

If you can afford the phone call even once, I'd do it even if your H does not participate, Tully. I don't know how the cost works out long distance, but there must be a way for you to manage one call. There are several BSs here who started off counselling alone, and sometimes the Harleys drew the other spouse in. Even if this does not happen, I should think getting their professional advice would be invaluable, even just once.

I think you can click "counselling centre" from the home page to book your call. I've read that you send them an email with details of your situation. In the email you could put your screen name here and Steve or Jennifer (Dr Harley's son and daughter) will be able to read and come quickly up to speed. Everyone says they are wonderful and will not waste a penny of your money.

Can you do this today, or tomorrow as soon as you have privacy and a moment to yourself?

The possibilities of a meeting for "coffee" or "lunch" are just as high if he's going not far without staying the night, BTW. How would you know if this had happened?

This is a horrible way to live, and I hate putting the idea that your H is a scheming worm into your head. He's not, but he is addicted. Don't be caught unawares.

I know what you are saying, Sugar but even an addict needs at some stage to take charge of his life. I can help him to some point and try to take him out of the situation for long enough so that he can see more clearly and show him love so that he can be sure of me but still he is an adult and must make his own decisions. And if he can't make the choice to walk away from her then I can't force him but I can walk away from the M. I've told him the theory about his being addicted and he agrees but the problem is often backtracks on things so it's sometimes hard to know. I have told him that in order to get over it he needs to respect his addiction and not dismiss it as controllable by making a simple decision. I used to smoke and was addicted. For several years I would stop for months and then start back again, thinking that I could just have one. I haven't had a cigarette for about 11 years now but I know that I could become a smoker again and so I will never touch a cigarette ever for any reason.

This evening I said to him that I have problems with trust and confidence in him because of all the lies and deception of the past year and that he will have to understand that and help me to find that trust again. I also asked him to promise me that if he has contact with OW again then he will either move out or sign consent forms so that I can take the children to Ireland temporarily. He agreed to do that - reasonably freely, as if contact was so unlikely that it wasn't difficult. Anyway I'll stay wary and keep my eyes open for any signs of any contact between them. I promise, I will not believe everything he says, much as I would like to.

Sugar, thanks for the thread suggestion on publication but I think I really need to finish writing my book in priority so that I have something to send. I feel much less obsessed with publication and I just want to get to the end of it now. Neak, by the way, I didn't mean to get personal about the writing thing and I'm certainly not asking you for anything, I was just pleased that we had that in common.

As for sex, well my feeling is that if there's something to be got, I'll have gotten it by now. Not sure if that's the right approach but I can't really suggest condoms to him now since he is adament that there is NC. I think a key moment will be at the end of the month when I see if she leaves or not.
MIL rang today to see how I am and she is really coming up trumps. I've underestimated that woman, she is backing me 100% and more or less said that OW will never set foot in her house no matter what happens.

You can suggest condoms until you have both been tested for STDs.

Sorry, but I don't put much stock in this "promise" of his. Did you get it in writing? Did you talk to an attorney to see if a contract like that is binding?

Neak, I have a question about sex. He said that the sex with her was great and that she was exceptional at that side of things!!!! I'm not sure where that leaves me. I was happy with our sex life until a year ago when he stopped being affectionate, stopped initiating and had it last as short a time as possible. We did continue to have sex during that time because I knew he was drifting and I wanted to hold on to him but it wasn't great. It's better (for me at least) over the past few weeks than it was before I found out but I am feeling a bit undesired still. It's not easy for me feeling as if he's saying 'you're a great person, a good friend and a great mother but when it comes to sex, she was the tops'. Ok, he's not quite saying that but that's how I feel it. I suppose I feel that the element of the 'forbidden' makes sex more exciting than it could be with a wife of 20 years but it still bugs me. Any suggestions? Should i talk to him about this or just go ahead and have sex anyway and sort out this at a later stage when things are a bit more stable?
I'm asking that because I'm reading your thread (it's a long one though!) and it was an important thing for you.

I crossed with you, turtlehead. I think you're right about the promise. I will get a witness. He is going to dinner on Wed night with a close friend of ours who is doing her best to beat him into shape. I will tell her and ask her to confirm the promise. Also i might get him to sign the consent forms in advance but say that I will only use them if contact is taking place.