I know you are frustrated. I think he was trying to help. a compromise:

He puts stuff in drawers to get it half way organized and then you can get out the drawer liner paper. Go to each filled drawer and dump the contents in a box. Then line it with paper, then dump the contents back in the drawer.

Everyone is happy.

Jayne, instead of muttering, would it be honest to tell your H,

"Listen, buster, the rules have changed here. I did used to let you yell at me, back when I thought that people only deserve to be not yelled at if they have been totally perfect and "in the right." I am coming to realize that even though I'm not perfect, that I am special, and I'm not going to yell at myself, and I'm not going to let you or anyone else yell at me. You may or may not have noticed, but I'm treating myself a lot better, and that includes protecting myself from your mouth. I've had it with your yelling at me, and if you do it again, I'm leaving the house for the evening, with or without the kids. Our marriage is too important to me than to allow you to keep shredding it with your yelling."

Thanks for the idea Stella.

That's sort of what we're doing now. I got most of the kitchen done last night, and then this morning he'd put things away mostly in drawers and shelves I'd lined. There were a couple of places I hadn't gotten to, I think he just thought I'd finished cus the bottom shelf was lined but not the upper ones.

He's doing it because he wants to, because he likes neat and orderly, and also because he wants to put things where he wants them instead of where I want them. A lot of times he disagrees with my choice of where something belongs, and he moves it. If I talk to him about it and/or move it back, he will just move it *back* without talking to me about it. If I don't feel too strongly about it, I let it go. I would like to feel I get to decide where the kitchen stuff goes, since he will almost certainly insist on putting the pictures and knickknacks and furniture where he wants them.

He did agree to buy the living room set that I liked (it was in his top two also) so we do sort of compromise, a sort of POJA I guess.

Wow ears... you want me to remember all that while he's yelling at me? lol

No really, I like what you suggest. I just don't think I could've thought of that in the moment. Maybe now that you've written it out for me, maybe next time I can say a couple of those statements.

What about telling him now, while he's calm. I don't know if he'll listen or not listen, remember or not remember. But I do think that you've changed, jayne, and have faith and confidence in you that you'll remember. That you'll find your boundaries and enforce them. Before it's too late.

Jayne, I'd like to understand about the dog, why it's non-negotiable. I am wondering, are there things that would make you enthusiastic about not having a dog? Or having an outdoor dog? Or a hamster instead? Maybe another baby instead :MrEEk: Or a family membership at the zoo

Hi ears, I just posted on your thread a bit more about the dog before I saw your questions here.

Why a dog...

I want a pet that I can go hiking and camping and jogging with. I took my dog everywhere; I went on weekend-long camping and hiking trips in the Canadian north, just me and my dog, and I didn't have to worry.

A dog will get up with you at 2:00 a.m. and leave a warm tent to go out into the cold dark forest when you need to pee. And he'll be happy to do so.

I want a pet that will go with my kids while they are in the woods, and will alert them to dangers like snakes. (I know that isn't a guarantee, but it helps. Who was it that had water moccasins this past summer?)

I love cats, and so does H. We now have two. Cats are great for cuddling, for calming, for purring, for playing with string, for looking cute, and for keeping mice away and patrolling for moths and crickets. But not for going on 10-mile hikes, and keeping you company on 2 a.m. potty breaks.

I not only want a dog, I want a German shepherd. Noble, dignified, loyal, intelligent. My GSD (German shepherd dog) was show quality from a reputable breeder, and the woman I bought him from had showed him, and reserved the breeding rights. I took him back to her several times for breeding. She encouraged me to show him, and taught me a few things, but I didn't have time to get into it. I'd kinda like to do that now.

So there's really not anything that would be the same as a dog. The closest, I suppose, would be getting a horse. Or another baby.



ETA: I say a horse, because you can go on rides with a horse and go camping with a horse. And you can compete with a horse. I mean, you can enter riding competitions, you and your horse; you can have a goal, and work toward it. (not that you will actually compete *against* the horse!)

I say a baby, because you can also do a lot of things with a baby, put a lot of energy and time into a baby, and work toward goals of teaching and training... and eventually you can go camping with a baby!

about an outside dog... we had an outside dog when I was a kid. Having an outside dog is about the same as having a cat, or a hamster, or a rabbit or something... it's there for you to feed and occasionally pet if you want. Having a companion dog is totally different. The dog is part of your "pack". Before I got my "first dog" (not counting the outside dogs from when I was a kid) I read a book called The Monks of New Skete. It's a book on caring for dogs, written by a real monk in a monastary in New Skete, I think in New York. The way some monks grow wine, these monks raise GSDs. Each monk has his own dog who eats and sleeps with him. It's a really cool book, and I fell in love with GSDs when I read it. Before then, I was not what I'd call a "dog person". I preferred cats. A BF in college suggested I would like a dog, and I read that book, and that was that.

I have other things to post about too, including answering ears' questions of a few days ago, but I don't wanna t/j my own dog discussion...


I thought there was a drumming the fingers dude. Guess not. Oh well. <wondering if there's a mod listening... not important enough to actually ask though... sure would be nice to have an impatient dude!>

We had a sheapard when i was growing up. She was a security guards dog but had been locked inside a paint factory that caught fire. The exploding paint cans made her gun shy and threrfore useless. She was a real neat dog and was part of the family, attacked anyone who came onto the property in the dark
Totally a pile a crap in a thunderstorm tho :RollieEyes:

As an adult I do not like dogs, primarily because almost all the ones I see are so badly trained. I would have one like her again tho in a heart beat.

Hi lil!

Yes, my dog had been very well trained by the breeder. He was 4 y.o. when I got him so I can't take credit for how wonderful he was. He was wonderful though. Even friends of mine who were afraid of dogs, weren't afraid of him, as big as he was.

In thunderstorms he would climb in my lap though.

It's so important to have good training and socialization. Plus, for a lot of popular breeds, over-breeding has caused problems. You either need a Heinz 57 mutt, or one from a reputable breeder.

Our cats are Heinz 57, from the animal shelter. I'd get a dog from there too, if I wasn't so in love with the GSD look.

I may still. There's a dog in a foster home here that we met at a weekend event, who is very nice and is really neat-looking. There was also a great GSD I was interested in, but he apparently is a cat-killer. :MrEEk:

Now I am.


Hmm... yes I guess that could be it, to let him know. Also to try to get him to stop.

It doesn't fit with MB though, I know. You aren't to try to change the other person, just to do what is right for yourself to do. But... and here I'm rehashing past discussions... don't we "teach" our spouses how to treat us? If there's no pay-off...

hold on...

I was about to say something like, if there's no punishment... which is parenting. But maybe the key is in teaching them, by the progressive boundaries you mention?


No I don't think I've figured out how to do that yet. Not in the heat of the moment (another yelling incident happened tonight) and certainly not how to share O&H when even talking is an LB to him.

I'm ready to explore this now. But I'm stumped.

Here's another consideration: the past few times, I've noticed the yelling occurs at night after dinner, i.e. after wine. Or after he's had a drink when he first gets home from work.

This boggles me a bit. He never seems drunk. He doesn't seem to have more than one or two glasses.

I grew up Southern Baptist, no alcohol in the house; I remember in college a friend of mine discovered beer in her brother's fridge and we thought he was going to hell. Since then I've certainly drank my share, even spent awhile as a barfly after XWH (H#1) left. I can't believe H has an alcohol problem. I hesitated to mention that here, cus I know it's a factor in your M, and I knew you'd think it was a factor here, and I didn't think it was true and I didn't *want* to think it was true.

Too cliche, ya know? And too easy... like saying that makes it all his fault, as if I haven't yelled. And I really feel like I set the stage for the yelling, years ago.

But there it is. I will observe, and see if other times the yelling is correlated with whether or not he's had a drink.

And I think I won't try O&H if he has. Maybe before, though?

What do you think? How can I tell if it's the drinking, when he doesn't get drunk? And is that just a way for me to shift the blame to him? (I don't think it is, when there really is an alcohol problem. But I'm not sure if there is, in this case.)

If I have a glass of wine, I find myself more likely to say what I think; in fact if I know I'm going to argue with H, I reach for it. If your H has resentment against you, the drink is going to loosen his tongue, I would think. Doesn't have to be all the way drunk.

Hmm, I hadn't thought of that. Thanks.

That could be true, especially since he's otherwise conflict-averse. I wish he'd be O&H, instead of feeling resentful and then yelling when he feels less inhibited.

What do you suggest?

I know that expression, we teach others how to treat us. And I don't disagree with that. We show others the outer limits of what we are willing to tolerate. We also share how we like to be treated. Like when my H rubs my back, and I snuggle up to him and make happy noises. Like when you have been sharing appreciation with your H. I believe that their choices remain theirs to own. What do you think?

Like you said, progressive boundaries are where we get RH about what makes withdrawals, what we are not willing to tolerate.



Is this acceptable or unacceptable to you? I think it is unnacceptable, because I heard you say you grumbled about it. What would make you enthusiastic about drive-by O&H?



Are you enthusiastic about staying silent? What about saying, "Ouch"?

What would be a first step you would be enthusiastic about? Would you feel more safe in an MC office? With the Harleys on the phone with you two?




To clarify, Jayne, I don't know if your H has a drinking problem, or whether it's a factor. If it concerns you, I would think it worth exploring. I did feel a little hurt when I read that, that I lost my objectivity. I felt a DJ. Ouch. Is that what you meant?

I think I remember that your stepdad had a severe drinking problem, did I get that right? I would suggest that you consider Alanon, or I may have suggested that already, if that was the case, because I see a lot of parallels to Adult Child of Alcoholism issues in your ownership of his feelings, looking for the person at fault instead of the solution.



How would you want to make amends for your yelling? For the things that felt like setting the stage? What about an apology, to yourself? To your H?



My personal choice is to not seek a response from H when he's in Attack mode, or when he's been drinking. I still do drive-bys when I am safe to do that. And acknowledge when I don't share those drive bys, that I am DJing H, that he would be unable to respectfully hear my O&H. That I am harming my marriage. My 50% to own.


Does it matter if he's acting under the influence of the alcohol, or just hostile? I'm not asking that rhetorically, I'm asking for you. I don't seek to find out anymore, but that may not be the same answer for you.

No that isn't what I meant! (to hurt you or imply that you'd lost your objectivity) I was afraid of sounding like that and I tried to rephrase, I see I didn't succeed. I'm sorry.

It was possibly avoidance on my part. The key phrase is, "I didn't *want* to think it was true." It is something I'd avoided mentioning for a little while, and last night I decided you needed full information if I want useful advice.

No my stepfather didn't have a severe drinking problem, at least I don't think so... he had a severe abuse problem, but only once did I see him with alcohol. So possibly he was hiding it, but I don't think so. We never had it in the house as far as I know.

I wanted to hurry and respond to your "ouch", I'll go read the rest of what you wrote now.

I guess you need finding ways to speak respectfully to each other without recrimination and DJs. Go to the bookstore. There's bound to be some sort of board game or something that allows you to talk things out, a marriage help, if you will.

Something D18 did last week at her party. Her abusive ex gave her a stuffed animal. She didn't want to get rid of it cos she liked it, but it had bad memories. So all the kids were talking over one another, and she picked up this giraffe and yelled 'Conch!' They all looked at her like she was crazy, and she said 'This is now officially my conch. Whoever possesses it may speak, and no one else. If you have something to say, reach for the conch.'

It worked!

Maybe you can come up with a conch.

Who says Lord of the Flies is a waste of time?

Jayne, thanks for clarifying I'm glad that you don't think I lost my objectivity.

Healing the Shame That Binds You by John Bradshaw goes really heavy into the lasting effects child abuse, how it distorts how we see the world, and how to overcome that, by raising your awareness about your beliefs, your self-talk. Are they childhood beliefs? Are they still true? If not, what is true? Really similar to how we do that with our negative self-talk in Tools. I really recommend the book.

I think I need to work on the letting go of the response, I think I'm not doing that. I am expecting and watching for a particular response, I guess, and I guess I want to "talk" until the issue is "resolved" my way. When that doesn't happen, I feel more resentment. So I'm not letting go of the response. I'm not concentrating on just my part, the O&H.


That's a great idea! I think I can memorize that line, "Ouch."

I see the advice to others, I just never thought to apply it myself...


I think first I'll try saying "Ouch".

And if there's a calm time tonight, if things aren't rushed and the kids aren't clamoring and he hasn't had a drink yet, I'll tell him that I don't want us yelling like that, especially in front of the kids. I'll share how much that was a DJ to me, what he said last night.

What's a boundary enforcement I could apply? Leaving the room if it happens again? Does that teach my kids that it's ok for a H to yell at and insult his W?


Ok, I'll still try the drive-bys, but I'll try to time them for when he might be more receptive, a.k.a. not busy and not having had a drink.


I guess if the alcohol is a factor, I want to know so I can choose my timing better, at least. Because for me, the best time to bring things up IS toward the end of dinner, say after the kids are excused, or after the kids are in bed. I specifically wait for those times, since there's less rush and less distractions. That isn't working very well for me.

Thanks for sharing that, Jayne. I learned something really important, reading back what you quoted. I stop seeking to understand when I perceive my H as hostile or drunk. That's good to know. I would like to share that with H, maybe we can think through that, see if there is some way I can continue to partner then instead of checking out. Or maybe the checking out is what I need to communicate.


Jayne, you really need some more experienced folks to guide you through this. Some mentors who have been through the fire and came out with their integrity intact. Maybe IC. Do you know some women like this IRL?

I share a drive-by as I leave the room, "Ouch, that hurts. I'm going upstairs." I think I can accept what the situation is without accepting the unnacceptable behavior. You can share your O&H in front of the kids, too, like together at the breakfast table. "Last night, when you yelled at me, I felt disconnected, punished, and angry. Angry with you for yelling. Angry at me for tolerating it. Angry that this is what you show our kids how husbands disrespect their wives. I had a dream of a peaceful family life, where we respect each other and share our concerns respectfully. Where we show our kids how spouses treat each other with care and love. I am asking you to apologize to me today, in front of our kids. And to share your concerns respectfully. Your choice to own."

Sadly, no. Most everyone I deal with at work is male, and the few women I do interact with are work-related acquaintances, not the sort of relationship that would be wise to start confiding in. Between work and family I haven't much time to form outside friendships.

This morning I worked out something to say, trying to follow the "When you... I feel... " pattern. He took the kids to school and came back cus we needed to sign some papers at the realtor's. I said, "I don't want to raise our kids in an environment of yelling and screaming. I'm sorry for my part in forming that pattern in the past. I'm trying to establish a different pattern in our new place. Last night when you kept saying the same phrase over and over again, and wagging your finger in my face, even though I said that wasn't what I was asking, I felt belittled. That isn't the way to promote intimacy or set a good example for the kids." Then I walked away. Later, as we walked out the door, he said, "Sorry." I didn't say anything.

How was that? What should I have replied to his "sorry"?