You have no reason to trust your H at this point. This is your M, not MIL's, not your friends. It's easy for them to say forgive and move along because they don't have to live the he// you are in. They just want things to go back to "normal" and for everyone to be nice. If only it were that easy.

If family and friends want to be naive and believe H because he "says" something is true, you may have to ignore them. Your H has lied to you for how long? and went to great lengths to cover up his A. If your H is addicted to OW because of the sex, the fantasy he still has of her, or whatever...he can not be trusted.

Tully, if you DON'T tell your children, it's most likely that, somewhere in the back of their minds, they will believe that the problems are THEIR FAULT! Children tend to think this way when they don't know what's really going on.

At some point, they may also figure things out...from hearing a few words here and there, and then they will KNOW that Mom did not tell them the truth.

Children can handle TRUTH better than adults think they can. Just tell them the truth in an age-appropriate way.

They need to know that marriage is between TWO people only, and that Daddy allowed a woman friend to get in between you. Tell them that as soon as this woman is out of Daddy's life, you and he can start making progress in solving your marital problems. Tell them that you love Daddy, and that you and Daddy love them very much. Tell them that you are working very hard to be a good wife and mother, and that you will always take care of them.

They need the COMFORT of knowing the truth!

Dear Tully,

I think you are doing incredibly well in coping with what has hit you. You are working hard at a plan, taking care of your children and also your using Plan A on H, who does not deserve your loving care just now. You are listening carefully to advice and trying to learn from others' experience. I really admire the way you are dealing with this shock.

You have asked many different questions here. Some are about immediate problems, such as establishing NC, and some are about long-term issues. Some of the questions are getting lost, but I hope that eventually they will be answered.

I would like to add my support for the advice on telling the children. Again, we've been through this and we understand why you want to protect them.

You say that your eldest daughter knows that there is a problem but she has not asked, and has not been told, what it is.

I think that it might be better for her to know, rather than to let her imagine who-knows-what. She is bound to be trying to piece things together, and she is probably getting it wrong. For example, she might think that you or her father is really ill. Don't leave her to her fears.

I like the previous suggestions, and I have one more to blend in with them. I don't know if this is a good idea:

What about something along the lines that OW (whom she knows) is trying to be Daddy's wife, and she can't be, because you are married to Daddy. Daddy must tell her to leave your family alone, and that's what he is trying to do.

Add lots of reassurance that you and H are working together but that the problem is not fully solved yet.

I don't think that this sounds too explicit, do you? I also do not think that it blames her father and encourages her to dislike him, which of course, you don't want to happen.

What do you think?

Sugar, Thanks for the vote of confidence even though I'm not sure I am coping so very well. When it comes to the welfare of the children, I'm doing OK but I find that I am so tense and worried inside (and I have been for a year) that it's so hard to be light-hearted and fun with them.
I will consider very well the advice for the chidren and think about how best to deal with this.
So far I have not lied to them, I just haven't given them the full story. I did ask my eldest (and the twins, each separately) if they had any questions and they said no. I wouldn't lie to them but I wasn't sure if they were ready for the truth.

I read Fiori's thread today as you suggested and I will go now and write a reply to her because I think we have things in common.

Today WH came home from the seminar and I have a distinct feeling that something is wrong. It's so difficult these days trying to make distinctions between justifiable doubts and suspicions and paranoid delusions. I asked if anything was wrong, if he had seen OW and he said no but still I felt he avoided my eyes and was not being open with me. I think I might contact a person, a work colleague, who I know was at the seminar and ask if he was there all day, if he ate lunch with them etc. It will mean telling her the full story but that's fine, more exposure.

Sugar, do you still think Plan B is the way to go?

I have another question which arises out of my doubts of today. What if I discover proof that they have had contact? Should I go instantly into Plan B or should I try to maintain a Plan A face and attitude (I'm really not very good at pretending) until the end of the 2 weeks I had already decided on which means that we have our family break by the sea and the fun few days planned in Ireland. Also don't want to upset yet again the table plans at my sister's wedding I could tell him that I know about the contact but try not to be too annoyed about it.

I hope you are not all losing patience with me but it's not easy all this. The main problem I would have with a Plan B with no proof of contact is that I think he would refuse to leave the house and then I can't implement it. If I do have proof there's a much higher chance he would leave and also others would put pressure on him to go.

I'm thinking that I might have to spy for a while just to get even one piece of evidence. But how? What do you think?

Ps I tried to send a private message to Sugar and Neak but couldn't. How do I go that?

Do you have access to his cellphone?
Can you put a GPS tracker on his car so you know where he goes?
Voice activated recorder in the car?
Bug the home phone?

PMs are disabled on these boards.

Thanks turtlehead. I have more or less confiscated his cellphone. I keep it with me and he borrows it if he needs it when away. I don't think the GPS tracker on the car would really work because they could easily meet in places where he would have every reason to be.
I also don't think he'd use the home phone because most of the time that he is here I am too.
No, I think that the real danger zone is during working hours and his landline in work but he works in a high security place and I think that bugging his landline would be a serious offence. His workplace is very close to here so I could start calling in regularly to check on him but it does feel very degrading. I will follow-up with this colleague to see if he was at the seminar all day but you didn't answer my question - do you think I should go for Plan B immediately if I discover contact or should I wait?

To both of you That's no good. You can't police him all the time without driving both of you mad.

Oooohhh, colleagues. Is there anyone at his work you can expose to, that would keep an eye on him for you? I realize it's a long shot, because it's HIS workplace and folks will tend to take up for him, but it's worth putting some thought into.


That depends on whether you've done a stellar Plan A, how your love bank account is doing (i.e. go to Plan B before it's empty!), and how well prepared you are for Plan B (i.e. you have a great Plan B letter prepared, intermediary lined up and they understand their role, finances and child visitation all figured out).

So what do you think?
Have you been doing a flawless Plan A (for how long)?
How is your love bank?
Do you have a great Plan B letter (post it here for suggestions, folks have GREAT input into Plan B letters here)?
Do you have an intermediary?
Do they understand what's expected of them?
Do you know how finances will be handled?
Do you know how visitation will be handled?

Have you been doing a flawless Plan A (for how long)?
How is your love bank?
Do you have a great Plan B letter (post it here for suggestions, folks have GREAT input into Plan B letters here)?
Do you have an intermediary?
Do they understand what's expected of them?
Do you know how finances will be handled?
Do you know how visitation will be handled?

No, not a flawless Plan A but not too bad either. I think he loves me and knows deep down that being with is what is best for him. I have been angry and have been very critical of OW but he thinks I am a 'great person'. I might have a better Plan A in two weeks because I have lots of good things planned for us to do both as a family and as a couple. It's just that if I do find out that there's more contact I will be so upset and angry that it might be hard to be tolerant and 'nice'.

I haven't worked on my Plan B letter because I am still working out the logistical details but I will do.

I do have an intermediary who is great, calm and reliable. WH went to her house this evening for a chat (he calls her his MC) I think she would be excellent. We go on hols with them every year so they are close to both of us.


Finances: I think he would not change our finances. Honestly he is not mean in any way and would never make his children suffer. However, if necessary I could ask several people for money including his parents and they would help us out and it would make him feel even worse.

Visitation; I was thinking I would enrol the children in after school care on Tues and Thurs so that he could pick them up after work and take them home and I would go to stay with friends (I think it might scare him too to not know where I am and what i am doing) He could also have the house and chldren every second weekend and I would go elsewhere. All other days, I would be at home. If he has anything to tell me about the kids etc he could either leave a message on the cellphone or inform our intermediary.

What do you think?

Well I think I've just blown a hole in my Plan A. I am so angry I am red and breathing very heavily. WH got home this evening after a discussion with a friend who is doing her best to help us to patch things us between us.
he is not loving or kind at all. He was on his computer checking his emails and I walked up behind him and he opened one of them a bit quickly I thought. wHen I asked to see his inbox he smirked and said 'what if I refuse' I said ' I want to see' He said 'And what it I don't want' I pushed his swivel chair away and opened it anyway. Nothing from OW but his smirk and smart-[censored] attitude really made me so mad. I happened to be folding clothes so I hit him with the t-shirt I had in my hand and said that I can't believe you just did that. He said 'what?' And then 'well, I'm fed up with your snooping and suspicious attitude'. I am so hurt and fed up. Please help me.

You really need a key logger for his computer.

(((((hugs)))))

tully, your WH still doesn't get the hurt and trauma his A has inflicted upon you; most probably never do. Plan B needs to hit WH like a ton of bricks and you have to do it before he destroys any love you have for him.

I like your ideas so far except the visitation bit.

I wouldn't spend the extra money on after school care; I'd put in the Plan B letter that he can pick up the kids the first, third, and fifth weekend of the month, with the weekend being determined by where Friday falls. i.e. if Friday is in October and Sat/Sun are in November, that's the fifth weekend of October. Or whatever arrangement you like but make it VERY specific. Give him no wiggle room, no room for misunderstanding, and let him have a taste of what court-ordered visitation is going to be like.

I definitely would NOT give him the house. The whole point of Plan B is for you to protect yourself from his influence. You don't want to come home to find little notes lying around, or cigarette butts with lipstick on them, or anything to do with him. Likewise, if he's visiting the marital home he'll be getting some of his ENs met by you - especially domestic support. Plan B has to be totally dark. Sharing a house makes that impossible.

If he has anything to tell you about the kids he should go through the intermediary. You'll have his number blocked from your cellphone (but he doesn't need to know that).

What does this do and where would I get one?

I dont know about keyloggers but the other day i was searching the internet for ideas re home security after we had our second break in in so many months. I was surprised to find cheap surveillance equipment in many different guises eg a pen or a clock and even a light fitting. Not suitable for my purpose but maybe worth a look for yours .

Good Luck

black raven and turtlehead, I wrote a long response earlier and lost it and then it was time to get the children up for school. I'll be back. THanks for your thoughts, both supportive and practical.

Dear Tully,

I'm so sorry to hear of how you are feeling.

I had the following prepared to post last night and could not send it. I'll do so now, although it does not deal with the later posts from you that change things somewhat. I'll be able to post again later.

Quote:

I will consider very well the advice for the chidren and think about how best to deal with this.
So far I have not lied to them, I just haven't given them the full story. I did ask my eldest (and the twins, each separately) if they had any questions and they said no. I wouldn't lie to them but I wasn't sure if they were ready for the truth.

I read Fiori's thread today as you suggested and I will go now and write a reply to her because I think we have things in common.


That's what I mean, Tully about your strengths and my admiration. You really do think through everything that you've been told. You're even trying to read through that enormous list I gave you, with a house and four children to look after.

In nearly two years of browsing here, obsessively reading very old as well as new threads, I have never seen anyone act on a piece of advice straight away without first doubting it. Some never stop doubting it, and sometimes come back to say how they wish they had acted. You are just learning, like every has to, but you are not taking your doubts into a state of denial.

The MB programme seems so counter to everything we have read, or discussed with friends, about affairs before. We think it's wrong to expose, especially to the other BS. What; break up somebody else's marriage, just out of revenge? That's what we all have long thought, and it comes as a shock to hear Dr. Harley and the posters here say the opposite. The same with informing children, demanding a change of jobs or house move where NC is not otherwise possible...

Nobody knows there things before they come here, and it is a shock to hear them insisted upon. Some people cannot cope with what they hear here and prefer denial. You have been told some pretty tough things, including my awful story, as a warning about where this might end up, and you have always listened and taken it in. I think you're doing remarkably well.

Answers to questions:

Yes, talk to the colleague. Definitely. OW contacted him there; you know it. I don't know if she used my H's OW's trick of just turning up at the seminar. I think rather that they must have spoken before today. When she rang he did not tell her to leave him alone and that's why he could not tell you about the call; otherwise he'd have simply said she called and he cut her short.

He does not see that those "few kind words" you mentioned his saying (several posts back) are not kind, they are morally wrong for him to utter to his adultery partner while asking you to trust him and stay with him. He does not accept that his "kindness" is morally wrong; that it is a continuation of the affair. Those "kind words" will let him go back to where he has been. "Kind words" from a guilty affair partner mean saying "of course I loved you! I still love you! I did not use you! How can you say that? Do you honestly think I am that cruel? I think about you all the time! I feel really bad for what has happened. I DO still care for you. I just cannot leave my children".

How can such words be anything other than encouragement to an obsessed OP? That's what my H began by saying to his OW. That progressed to "if you love me, just meet me once, just this last time". At, or after that "last" meeting it would have been "but I can't give you up! If you leave me, I don't want to live!"

I'm not trying to say that the WS goes back to the affair only under pressure. He wants the affair. He never stopped wanting the affair. Being found out does not cut off the feelings. He goes back because he wants to.

I would do a good plan A for the two weeks you planned, unless you feel so sick to the stomach that you begin to hate him. In two weeks she might be gone. that would be good.

Your holiday plans are the perfect opportunity to build good feelings in him. The break in contact (I assume, if he does not have a mobile and does not contact her by email) will weight things heavily on your side. Especially good if you do have to go to Plan B. Are there any experts listening who could chime in on this?

We (posting here) are not losing patience at all. If you can plan carefully enough to get this correct first time you stand a better chance of restoring your marriage. If you have to go through a second Plan B because of a fake recovery you will be the worse for it. You do have to look at every eventuality and say " but what if..." That is sensible, not silly. You have at least two weeks to plan this, so bring out all those doubts and questions now. that's the value of talking to people who have lived this and done it before you (Badly, in my case!)

Sugar.

Ps: great advice, turtle and raven.

Hello black raven and turtlehead, thanks for the practical support and the hugs. I hope you know how much I appreciate them and how much it helps in this difficult time to have the support of this website.

I feel that there was contact between WH and OW yesterday because of the reversal in his attitude, his coolness, his impatience and his provoking of me. But thanks to you all I am working on a plan.

Firstly I rang my MIL this morning ostensibly to discuss with her whether or not she wanted me to put the children in the childcare facility for a day or two while they are here so that it's not too hard on my PIL. She said absolutely not. Of course she asked me how things are and I told her about the incident of last night and that I have suspicions that there is contact. SHe was great, supportive but encouraging me to keep trying to keep the marriage going. I agreed that I would. This prepares the ground for a Plan B coming up (although I didn't mention this to her). I also spoke to the person I would like to be our mediator to tell her so that she is supportive of my decision. In fact she suggested that maybe it was now time to give WH an 'electoshock'.


Next, I am going to send an email to WH to say that I accept his apology (because he did give me one this morning before going to the seminar) and that hurt as I was, I am willing to put it behind me and to try to focus on the good things we have, especially as we have such nice plans for the coming few weeks. It would be a shame to spoil them. This is a preface to doing a decent Plan A for the next while. I think I am too forthright and blunt to do a flawless Plan A as Turtlehead mentioned but I'll do my best.

Finally, tomorrow morning WH is going to work for a couple of hours before we go away to Orleans for lunch, a city visit and a concert that evening (it was my birthday present to him) While he is in work I will contact his colleague (who I know reasonably well) and who was one of the organisers of the seminar he attended the past couple of days. I will arrange to meet her in the carpark and ask her if OW was at the seminar or if WH was there all the time. There were 40 people at the seminar so I'm not sure if she'll be able to tell me if he nipped out for an hour or so.
If I find out something concrete, I'm not sure what I should do with that info but I'll come back here and ask you all when the time comes.

Over the next while I will try to sort out a watertight Plan B which I will implement beg November unless there is a major reversal between now and then but I am committed to go to Plan B.

Turtlehead, vistation is a problem as is the house. We don't have the money for him to rent a house sufficently big to accommodate 4 children. In the immediate term coming to the house is the best financial option but I need for him to agree to go away on the days I will be here and not to try to contact me. The one advantage of him coming to the house is that we live in a very small village where everyone knows everyone and the tone might harden when he takes the children to the busstop in the mornings or when he is around the village. So far, friends are trying to behave as normally as possible towards him in order to help us reconstruct but if we separate and share the house and children this might change.

Thanks Sugar, I've decided to speak to the colleague tomorrow morning. The seminar goes on again today so she'll only be back in her office tomorrow.

First of all, I'd like to second Sugar's sentiments about how you do obviously read everything and think about everything that is posted to you. I can tell you're working hard on figuring out how to handle things.


Aw, it sucks to be him, doesn't it? It's time he realized that what he's doing has much more impact than a little sneaky fun and maybe making the wifey-poo angry (but that will blow over so it's not a big worry).

Kids won't care all that much if they camp out on a sofa and floor for the weekend. They'll see it as an adventure. And if they don't, it's not the end of the world. They'll whine at their Dad and that will be good for him.

I don't think you fully grasp the importance of total darkness in Plan B. Now I should be up front and admit I've never done a Plan B myself. I have, however, read about many Plan Bs and the ones that are airtight have remarkable impact (may take time, but they DO have impact) while the ones that are mostly a Plan B have disastrous results, or if they have positive results it takes for-EVER.

When he comes to the house, he gets to enjoy your good housecleaning, the good leftovers in the fridge, your deocrating skills... all those little things you do to make a house a home. Plan B is supposed to make him try to get those needs filled elsewhere. He shouldn't be getting any domestic support fixes from you until he goes NC and works on the marriage whole heartedly.

Even more importantly, Plan B is to protect you from his waffling and his "here some, there some" attitude. How can you find peace and serenity in yourself and your home when you come in to see his stuff in the trash? When he's helped himself to the washer and dryer and left the lint trap full? When he left the toilet seat up? What if he starts leaving you little notes and flowers and chocolates? What if he invites OW into your home and introduces her to the children? What if they play house together in YOUR home? You really REALLY don't need that kind of stress. Plan B is all about going dark.

Let HIM figure out where he can live cheaply and how to visit with the kids. You don't own that problem. HE made that problem.