Bill Clinton?-- I'd take him back in a heartbeat.

Peter Cook?-- not so much.

Oh yeah - we get it! :crosseyedcrazy:

Lilybelle - omg - class of 2004!

Class of 2004. Wow. A fifth of my marriage has been affected by adultery now....

( Hi lily )

CV its the frustration that gets me. Part of my personal recovery walk has been to become self-actualized. Well scrub that I've become something of an island. I depend on nobody doing what they promise me. I always have a plan B which involves me doing stuff for me.

Now that was very much needed in early recovery - I was pathetically codependent on D-day - I had no personality apart from the roles I played in other people's lives - so I had to get some self-actualization. Some personhood.

I do think I have swung too far the other way though. Squid is DESPERATE for me to need her so she can feel secure, yet she behaves in a way to me that no sane person would ever depend on her.

Her default response in so many situations is to cut me down verbally. Dismiss my feelings, gaslight me when I call her on BS.

I'm not even going to pretend to need her because I don't need that in my life.

So I have an attitude that I am wondering apart from commitment whet is she doing in my life ? I get almost no ENs met by her ( in many cases because I do not permit her to, in truth) I don't like her very much, and she can't cook ( joke!).

So I tolerate her in my life now. She has had more then three years of incredible opportunities to build herself a niche in my life and my heart but she has spectacularly dropped every one on her toe.

In MY job I learn to look at results and behaviours and try to determine incentive or objective. The premise of that is "every machine or process is perfectly calibrated to achieve the results it gets"

Not not all calibrations are deliberate but they are settings nontheless.

It would seem that Squid wants me to need her so desperately ( as I used to) that she has permission to dismiss me and criticize me and I will take that without complaint.

No more.

I have explained this in every form of words I know, and that's quite a few forms !

There are sometimes small changes for a while then I hate myself for how pathetically grateful I am for them; for the peace and the opportunity to unclench that fist in my gut.

Then she opens her foolish mouth , will not discuss that reasonably and I affirm my inner commitment to not allow myself to be duped by this woman again.

She perceives love as acceptence OF HER but not as a reciprocating rule. *I* have to change to be what she needs in any given moment: she can do as she wishes while I crawl through hoops to make her happy.

Again, no more.

What she does to me is not "abuse". I do not feel abused by it. I get frustrated by it, and resentful of it but it is not really abuse.

What she does is drain a little bit more of the dwindle love units I have for her with every one of these events.

She is broken : even my own feeble psych analysis of her tells me that. yet she almost PROUDLY sates she will bottle everything up, tell nobody. She sees it as weakness to admit to problems.

I've told her many times we would both benefit from her getting counselling. She takes it as a slight. We attended a "relational leadership" training course for leaders at our church the other week. She was physically drained at the end of the day through the effort of not letting out any shred of herself to the coaches.

I do not believe it is projection or denial on my part to say I have a wife problem. She refuses to address herself and her own issues.

Now the women in her family have a theme: they push away anyone who loves them by middle age, become drunk lushes who die alone and loathed. He biomom and Auntie did this. Her other auntie is dying of cancer now in a cheap whiskey-fuelled haze having done just that in the last 25 years.

If I divorce Squid I have no doubts the same will happen to her.

Yet now My best times are away from her. This afternoon, for example, she is going to a karate class. I am looking forward to the time with my son, or reading a book or something. Its lovely time spent on my own or with the kids.

One pity is we spent a lot of time in "UA" going to lunch when I work from home. That's pretty much stopped because I hate having to bite my tongue so much. Its a pity because it used o be an opportunity to discuss recovery issues in a public place where histrionic responses were not as likely.

Now, doesn't happen.

So there you have it. My wife has made herself baggage in my life and won't change.

I think I need to tell her in those exact words. We'll see what the response is.

BP, I am mulling over the wisdom in responding to this sort of thinking. So I think I'll just wait as I consider things like rationalization and justification for choices, what being surrendered to God is like, why God hasn't just "cut and run" from all the ungrateful, self-centered things we all continue to do because it's what WE want to do.

But you DO seem to be back into the same "no hope" mindset that I remember you being in "way back when" you first began posting about your situation.

CV,

Congratulations on the new job!!!!


I can almost see you as the Nanny . . . upbraiding the parents of out of control kids.

Paperwork sucks. It seems that that is becoming a very large portion of my job as well. I'm glad to see you are doing well.

Bob,

I don't have much wisdom to share. Perhaps your wife is just too damaged to interact with you in a fashion that you need. Perhaps she just cannot allow herself to be in a intimate bonded marriage. I just don't know. If she is like me at all I'm sure she hates what she did. I'm sure that she hates seeing you still pained by her actions. Sometimes people in pain lash out and you just happen to be the nearest target. I used to have fantasies where I would just move to a different part of the county, alone, and start my life again. I was just too hard to face all the pain that I caused.

At first I stayed for the kids. I then stayed because I made promises to my wife and I could still keep some of them. Now I stay because I want to. I have changed a great deal and so has my wife. We don't take this marriage for granted. We both know that we can leave at any time if we treat each other poorly and refuse to stop doing it.

If you asked my wife what her marriage is like, I'm not sure what she would respond. She would probably that I broke her heart. That I was the person that she respected and trusted the most and look where that got her. And that just sucks.

Only you know what you can tolerate. I think you earned the right to a good marriage. I also think that you have earned the right fo a divorce. You have done the work Bob.

I don't think talking to your wife will work. She seems to not respond to your words, your worries and insights as anything other than criticism of her. If you say you are having a bad day she probably thinks you are blaming her in some way. And I don't know how to change that. You are in a pickle.

CN

CN

Your decency and regret shines like beacon from your posts. I have seen in other BS of regretful, investing FWS that they eventually find themselves so rewarded in each day that the hurtful past offers no incentive to look upon it very often. I pray that for your wife and yourself.

As for me, mate its not great. I've done pretty much everything I can do , but one hand can't clap.

I would have Squid released from this marriage if it makes her as miserable and snappy as she appears.

I don't want to be a divorced person, but that may be more authentic than this limbo. Still workin' still prayin'

Bob, it really DOES sound like you have a wife problem not a marriage problem.

Reading your summation of what your life looks like made me very sad.

Because my life/our life is SO different. Our marriage is full of laughter, full of respect, full of love. The nicest thing that has happened is that we are back to our old banter. During recovery we were both too frightened to banter - it was too dangerous.

For example, we're not afraid to call each other silly names or say "hey, when did they take that pic of you?" when a pic of a chimpanzee or something is in the paper.

It sounds a small thing but it's HUGE.

We talk again - about all sorts of things. That's another thing - if he's watching TV or reading and I interrupt he's not afraid to sigh. If I'm reading or watching TV, same thing. I say "Do you MIND, I'm reading." But it's all done with a smile and underlying affection. During recovery we wouldn't have dared. We'd have dropped everything to give each other the attention.

We're not afraid to dream or make plans for the future. We're working together getting our DD's wedding off the ground.... all sorts of things, nice things, good things.

Brilliant Jen. Just brilliant.

KY was still right. She said ( and you agreed) " in six months Bob you'll feel better than you can even imagine feeling ever again, right now" when she and you held my hand through the endless night.

And I did. And I still do. Thanks.

I do not know if any of you have read this post from the GQII section or not but I feel it goes along with my thoughts about why I have “overlooked” my H’s “selfish” ways, don’t know if any of you have the same thoughts or not.



You see I believe this whole heartedly. None of us are “perfect” there is no such being on earth. So when you find someone that you feel is “perfect” for you, you “overlook” their flaws because the good tends to out way the bad and you know there is no “perfect” person, yourself included.

So while I know that Dr. Harley has a wonderful philosophy regarding “overlooking things causing resentment”, I believe that we all “overlook” things in our lives everyday.

My struggle is the things that I have “overlooked” pre-A, now bother me a great deal more since D-day.

Bob,

Would it help / does it help if I tell you that since you and I are by coincidence very close in timelines, I've suffered through similair thoughts.

I know you are a bit more deep than I am, but...similair to some extent. Seeing your postings though, well, I'm writing thoughts off to part of timeline of healing, and not going to react to them other than perhaps tell my wife that right now, I'm struggling throguh some part of the forgiveness / healing process.

Hang in there man.

A great deal of this BS angst is because, as CV notes, the bar is raised.

The typical WS was always the less invested in the marriage.

After their adultery the bar gets, and should get, raised. But the WS is still who they always were. WS could not clear the original easy bar. WS certainly cannot clear the new raised bar.

Hence unsatisfied BS.

Perhaps divorce first, recover at leisure?

Hey Lily! I know you get it!

CN, it sound like you, and you and your W, are in a much better place. I'm happy for you.

Bob, I'm not saying you don't have a wife problem, but I am saying that while Med, her problem becomes a problem in the M. Personally I think things have been at the point for a long time and that you have needed to just say, "Squid, we need help! If we don't get that help I don't think I can stay in this M."

These patterns are rough. I get what you are saying, believe me. After my H's remorse stage, during his shame stage, he very much wanted to resort to his old, protective pattern of withdrawing from me to keep safe. I wouldn't allow it in the sense of I wasn't going to live with that. His withdrawal triggered me to when he withdrew from me during his A. I told him he had a choice. We had a great MC and he chose to work with me in MC.

Lately, probably because of my preoccupation with looking for a job, and now trying to learn and keep the job, we have been slacking on our R. The reality is it doesn't take long, even when things are going pretty good, to get screwed up without effort in the M. I think as a BS it doesn't take long for me to get frustrated with any perceived lack of effort from my H. The reality is that pre-A I dealt with the ebbs and flow of M in a much more easy going manner. Post-A it just feels different.

I was thinking of something the other day that I would love the opinions of MB folks like Pep and Melody. I "think" that for those of us who had to endure the humiliation of Plan Aing there is an extra feeling of entitlement. OK, I'll speak for myself. I want and need to know every now and then that my H gets what I went through to get him unfastened from OW, what I endured to keep our M and family together. I want and need to know that he is actually grateful. He says he gets it, and that he is grateful, yet the words don't flow spontaniously. Probably because he doesn't want to be reminded of the schmuck he was.

Anyhoo, back to my question. I sometimes wonder if Plan A is really that great. I wondered that while I was Plan Aing. I wonder if the results would have been just as good to go directly to Plan B. I really believe that Plan A is an extra trauma to the BS. Having to live with a lier, having to live with your S withdrawing from the OP, etc. It really was awful. I remember the feeling of fight or flight constantly. As a result I do have high expectations. So why Plan A? The only good thing I can say about it is my boys didn't suffer as much as they would have if I had kicked H out and the A would have been totally out in the open. And, if H and I did get back together we would have had to deal with my family being totally pissed off at him.

Bob, do you ever think about that? What you went through for your W, and so why isn't she jumping through some hoops for you?Any comments from you or some other old timers out there?

CV, plan A is a way to end affairs , and i can see the logic of it.
It counters the delusion ( or perception perhaps) of the WS that the BS is a vile person. When the BS is manifestly being a great person, AND not throwing kitchen utensils at them that theer may be a place to return if they ended the A.

Bearing in mind MB is a marriage-centric process, I can see how this works.

Is it as SATISFYING for the BS as applying plan " FU" and having the WS crawl on their belly back to the BS begging forgiveness ?

Probably not but I BET that approach does not lead to as many saved marriages.

I wish I'd done that however. Break the haughty entitled spirit of my wife or divorce her. Both good options, in hindsight.

Not sure if I am an old timer or not, but I'll comment.

When I consider the correctness of plan A, B, D or FU, I always consider it a function of the WS.

More spcifically, what exactly is the nature of my WS. I'm sure their are many ways to describe their nature, but in general, I see 3 types. The first is the type where the infidelity is not consistent with the WS's normal strategies for dealing with relationships. The second is the type where the infidelity is consistent with the WS's normal strategies for dealing with realtionships. I would say these people have learned dysfunctional strategies, such as conflict avoidance.

Of that second type, I think you can split them into two groups, those that are willing to change those dysfunctional strategies and those that are not. For those that are unwilling to change, there can be a myriad of reasons. They are unaware they use these strategies. They are aware but believe it is not dysfunctional. They are aware and believe they are dysfunctional but aren't sufficiently motivated to change. They are aware and believe they are dysfunctional, are motivated but believe they can't change. They are aware believe it is dysfunctional but just don't want to change. etc.

I think many BS's go through this progression of trying to understand the nature of their WS. And if one wants to look back and consider whether a specific plan was correct, they need to frame the question as was my plan correct based on what I assumed as the nature of my WS. I'm not sure one really needs to do this, since I guess what's most important is what should one do now given what they currently assume as to the nature of their WS.

BP - This is sort of where I think about your situation. I have not read all your threads, but what I see recently is you saying Squid is in that latter group. Dysfunctional strategies and unwilling to change. I'm sure we could all post reasons why she is unwilling to change, but I really think we can rule out she is unware of them (as you have said you have pointed it out every which way you can imagine). Perhaps we can rule out that she is sufficiently motivated (as I think you have been more than generous in your efforts). We can most likely rule out that Squid disagrees that they are dysfunctional strategies (since she has agreed to change them, but ultimately reverts back). So we are left with can't change or won't change.

For me personally, I struggle at this point, because I don't know where to draw the line on deciding when is someone telling you this is just "who I am" versus someone telling you this is "who I choose to be." Others may not care and say its irrelevent and you should base your choice on whether you are getting what you need. But I tend to feel if it's just "who they are" I tend to give a little more leeway (this is the acceptance, at least in my mind). But if it's "who they choose to be", its settling.

I once posted to you and at the time, you seemed to be comfortable that these issues were just a matter of "who Squid is", but was struggling with acceptence. I suggested the issue may be that you weren't really sold that this is who Squid is, because you were contrasting that to what you thought of her pre d-day. My thought being if you realized that Squid was always this way, it might help accepting her now. Got kind of blasted on that one.

From what I read now, I think you are coming face to face with the fact that this is who Squid is. And when I advised divorce her, it was because I think you are is convinced that Squid could change but just won't. Which is an opinion I agree with, but its not my call. I don't think you will be able to live with that.

Anyway, I am just trying to help.

I went down hill fast on Plan A. Physically as well as mentally. Didn’t need ADs until three months into Plan A is for Anguish, actually. It would have been much better to go directly to Plan B is for Bite The Bullet immediately

I remember when she wanted to come home at the end of Plan B, about six months later. I was still undecided. I was very calm and relaxed and actually unstressed for the first time in years. I didn’t really want, in hindsight, to end Plan B. I was feeling better than I had since she first met OM all those years ago. But someone here on MB posted to me if the affair was ended she had every right to come home, we were still married before God after all. I wasn’t ready, but I figured MB and God must know, probably in that order. Big mistake.

For me it’s not an entitlement. I don’t see that in me at all. I do see a total failure on her part to understand what it took. How much it took away from me and us both, forever. I don’t even care about hoop leaping. Nothing extraordinary is required. She could demonstrate understanding in many little ways every day. But she doesn’t.

IMO No WS, with or without an F, truly understands. It isn’t in their very nature to understand this. If they understood even a little bit they would not have committed the adultery in the first place. They are all still entitling themselves. They all say some variant of, “I should not be punished forever.” And that is an entitled statement in itself. How many times have you read that very statement in a WS, F or none, posting right here on MB. They don’t have a clue it isn’t punishment. It isn’t even “just compensation". It isn’t anything but caring to the degree that caring was always required. But they don’t get it and they never will. If they had the capacity to get it they would not have done it.

According to the stats published on MB, and DR H’s own writing, Plan A rarely ends an affair that was not already ending. The Plan A success rate is miniscule. It’s only plan B that has an effect. A good Plan A can heighten the desired effect of a good Plan B, but Plan A by itself does not actually cause the end of an affair. And it has a very bad side effect. It greatly increases WS appetite for cake. With thick icing. Al la mode.


Rprynne, I 99.44% agree.

Bob, I am a BS but I did not recover my M. I did what probably could be described as an excellent Plan FU. Now I don't really know what that is exactly, but I didn't do Plan D (more out of spite than anything) but I have completely separated myself from WstbxH, physically, legally and emotionally whilst giving him as little as I could legally get away with. As I type this, he is likely working OT to pay for his little love nest with the OW, her lawyer fees and God knows what he's spent to try to impress her, all the while alienating everyone in his life short of his immediate family. Meanwhile, my finances have never been better, I just sold my house at a tremendous profit, I travel a lot now (I'm going south in 2 weeks) and I have a host of friends and a wonderful mature guy that I'm dating these days.

That brings me to this:

The answer is no. At one point I thought it might be. But now I'd rather just not deal with him anymore. Life is good now.

And this:

Nope it didn't.

However, what I do have is personal recovery. Well, working on it (I'll consider my graduation day the last day I log on here - as long as I need MB, there obviously must be something more that can be done).

My version of Plan FU was actually based on MB principals. I completely floundered at Plan A and the information I found out snooping only spun me harder in the FU direction. I didn't abandon MB then - I continued to read and learn. And I applied Plan B. Not with a letter stating conditions for his return, because there were none, but with no (well truthfully, minimal) contact to protect me from the continual hurt. Then I went to work on myself and my life. ICs. ADs. Joining clubs. Fixing up my house. Taking charge of things - all the way to now that I'm selling the marital home so I can truly be my own self. And I motivated myself by reading here, studying the plans, learning how other WS's and BS's reacted to things and how similar they were to me.

I truly believe that the basis for MB works on the individuals involved in the marriage. The whole point of it is to fix the things wrong with you - recover yourself as a whole so you can BE a good spouse. Both the WS and the BS are damaged. Until both have healed, how can the M be anything but damaged also?

I didn't want to be divorced. I don't even really know how to be divorced. But it's not about learning to be this or that - it's about learning to be yourself. When I can do this, it doesn't matter if I'm married or divorced. In my case I will be divorced, and my WstbxH is the true loser because he'll still be damaged. And I'll be ok.

You are so hurt - your personal damage level is high. Something has jammed and you've stopped healing. Perhaps something has jammed with Squid also. You are stuck and now you are second guessing the choices you made.

Sure, you could initiate a plan D at any time. But what difference will it make. You are damaged married. You will be damaged divorced as well. No matter what you do, you have to heal. And so does she.

You have at least one thing I didn't. You have both made a commitment to try. But I think somewhere you got the cart before the horse. Your M can't be recovered until you are, and she is. A lot of the MB stuff is about this - read closely.

When you are happy, you are happy in your own skin regardless of the circumstances around you. When you are confident that you can handle anything, even that dreaded divorce, and be ok with it because you are a whole person yourself - when you feel that way, you will be the most desirable husband to Squid ever. And she to you when she feels that way. (does this make sense of have I messed it up?)

Hi tabby ! Thank you for taking the wtime to post to me ! I appreciate it very much !

You are so hurt - your personal damage level is high. Something has jammed and you've stopped healing. Perhaps something has jammed with Squid also. You are stuck and now you are second guessing the choices you made.

True statements. Maybe I'm not second guessing my choices: rather just looking for the ingredients in my life that need to be changed in order for it to produce a different outcome. I dunno. In any case in our circumstances what we have both done has not served to make us both happily recovered.

Sure, you could initiate a plan D at any time. But what difference will it make. You are damaged married. You will be damaged divorced as well. No matter what you do, you have to heal. And so does she.

This concerns me. I believe that a divorce may just swap one bunch of hurts for a new bunch of hurts. There are parts of my currelt life that ar every good. Chucking that baby out with the bathwater is not necessarily a recipe for life success. There are no completely good choices here.

You have at least one thing I didn't. You have both made a commitment to try. But I think somewhere you got the cart before the horse. Your M can't be recovered until you are, and she is. A lot of the MB stuff is about this - read closely.

I agree with this too. What I had considered to be personal recovery in my vase is actually just advanced defence mechanisms. In truth my trust engines are completely smashed. Circumventing that has helped me survive but not thrive.I thought this was personal recovery but it isn't. Healthy people have to need other people. I don't so I can't be healthy.

When you are happy, you are happy in your own skin regardless of the circumstances around you. When you are confident that you can handle anything, even that dreaded divorce, and be ok with it because you are a whole person yourself - when you feel that way, you will be the most desirable husband to Squid ever. And she to you when she feels that way. (does this make sense of have I messed it up?)

I'm confident I can handle anything, I just don't think my way of so doing is healthy. I think Squid's brokenness from her FOO has manifested only now and she needs a lot of help.

Thanks again for posting ! Glad you are personally recovered so well !

As long as we're reading today - here's some more - possibly a different paradigm from Stosny's blog:

He's a smart feller, pep ! handsome too I suspect

LD is a great way to ride out a storm, but a rubbish way to live a marriage. LD does not allow intimacy. I know this all too well.

Ah well. How are you and Mr P flower ?