Oh My Gosh, it feels like I just walked into the set of a bad movie or something! You know the one, the one where the conversation goes something like this:

personA: you're crazy

personB: i don't understand why you say that, what makes you think that

personA: see, classic denial signs, that proves you're craze

personB: no really, i'm not trying to deny, i'm just to understand what you base that on - have you heard all the information, have you seen all the data, have you heard from everybody before you came to this conclusion?

personA: yep, more combattive behavior, that definitely proves it, totally consistent: you're crazy.

I'm sure i am the only one that sees it this way in this crowd.

Yes, I am the H. of whom you all speak with so much evil. Echo sent me this link, so I read it and all the comments. Oh my gosh, is this site marriage builder or marriage destroyer? Every little thing I say and do, you guys are categorizing as classic signs of abusive person (waiting for a clever response from one of you here). The last place I thought I would try to have a normal conversation with my wife would be on a public blog. Anything I say or would possibly want to say, you guys will and do characterize as classic abusive signs. This is nuts and if you read the comments, it is spiraling out of control! I have begged my wife for us to go to therapy, I have begged for her to see somebody for her own problems (as I am seeing somebody for mine) which prevent us from having a normal conversation. I had a very long text written which would open your eyes a little differently, but this is not about what you all think, it is about how my wife and I can have a normal relationship where we can have a normal conversation with eachother without fear that the other person will just shoot you down right away. Constantly ping-ponging back and forth about this and that is not a conversation of healing, it’s a conversation of power. You guys seem all to willing to bucket me into something based on what you have read. I will not air out any dirty laundry and will not try to defend myself in any way on this forum. It is not appropriate, it is not helpful, and none of you are qualified in any way to speak. I say this because this is a marriage builder website, and yet all you seem to do is label me as somebody that I am not. Certainly you will feel that this response of mine is classic abuser response. You have a perfect system there: you say a bunch of things out of context, don’t hear the other side (and trust me, there is always another side even if you least expect it), label me as something I’m not, and then anything I say, you will label my response as classic behavior consistent with, well, in another few days of comments, at the rate you guys are going, probably a mass murderer or something.

Truth is, it is almost impossible to have a normal conversation with my wife, which is why we are where we are. Sure I could list countless examples, and I have them for Echo to read in private if she chooses, and her defensive hard shell and fear of not being loved despite all the things I do to show her I do (and they are there, she is just choosing to not list them in the blog – so all of you have a very very clouded vision of reality). But truth is, none of that is your business, as hard as it is for me to hold back and post my big giant response into this blog and let you all see the other side. It simply isn’t your business, and contrary to the name of this blog site, not conducive to healing or improving a marriage.

Echo, my wife, I ask you to stop this airing of every word I say or don’t say every morning on this website only to have these people, who already have me pre-labeled as the worst person in human history, spin you up even more into negativity, and come to a normal therapy with me where we can heal in a constructive way. This is not helping anything, and it is hurtful to see these things spread about me. It is just not helpful. And no, I’m not desperate that my game is finally up, my con is shown, and you’re onto me. I said nothing when you yelled at me because I felt the conversation had taken a turn that was no longer one conducive to us listening to eachother. My intent was to take up that topic of conversation at a time where we were both more in a more “hearing” kind of mood. Yelling doesn’t allow one to hear any response, so it was not the time to respond anything. I wanted you to know that I heard you, I heard your complaint, and I would love to take more about it and explore deeper at a time where we are both calm. I didn’t respond not because “that’s what abusers do”, but because I have been trying everything to be able to have a normal conversation with Echo, and it just doesn’t seem possible.

Go ahead crowd, mob, lynch away, analyze away, dissect away, label away, recommend away. It saddens me all, and you may call that a typical response (at this point I am pretty sure anything I say you will call a typical response, because well that is what I am in your minds, so better make the evidence fit the theory, right?). it saddens me that you call this a marriage builder site, and without seeking any input from the second half of the marriage, you go ahead and disperse advice. I could write books with “my side”, but this is not about my side and Echo’s side, it is about discovering middle ground and where we can tread without stepping in wounds we have created for eachother. Isn’t that always what marriage is about?

Echo, I needed to post this. It is not my “long post” I talked to you about, I want to share bits and pieces of that in private as we figure out how to talk to eachother honestly without fear of accusation and negativity. I’m sorry, but what’s being written here is just not the truth and I couldn’t sit by idly. I suppose you can all smile and say “yep, typical control freak”. Tell me, what would you all do if somebody, and then more people, and then more yet, started talking about you like this behind your back without ever asking you for your opinion first? I think you might be a little upset about that as well – not just the people on planet MEMEME but normal people like you and me.

Tell me, readers of this blog: do you think it is helpful, or hurtful, when a couple has communication problems, to see snippets of their life and communication taken totally out of context and posted in a public forum so that the readers can hack away and talk badly about the other person? Do you really think this helps? or does it fuel more anger and more problems and does it perhaps pose yet another block to what is already so hard: to just have a normal conversation with my wife that she doesn't take so personal as to launch into a depressive tailspin every time we try to have a normal conversation?

you want to talk about emotional abuse and control? Try this one. This morning I had a 7am meeting at work which I had scheduled and the meeting was mandatory for all of us (including myself). Echo understands if you don't, we both have these kinds of meetings sometimes. I was so afraid to tell her that I had this meeting this morning, and at what her response would be at the prospect of having to handle the kids alone for the morning (which i admit can be a handful), that I basically spent all night last night thinking of excuses I could tell the people at work why I didn't go to the meeting. I'm afraid to voice my opinion about anything, I ask permission to go to the bathroom because when I do go and leave her alone with the kids for 5min, it comes back up in a converation later as me not caring.

One more, to show you the bad person I really am. When Echo was pregnant, she convinced everybody that she didn't really want a baby shower. Her best friend agreed not to do it, because Echo said "Oh, i really don't care about that stuff". But I knew, from the 10's of little signs that she let slip left and right, that she really did want one, of course she did! and that is normal of course. So I talked to her best friend and asked her to throw one anyway. Echo has a hard tough shell but a very soft and easily hurt inside. It is hard to have a conversation with Echo about anything of significance in our relationship becuase her deep inside is so vulnerable. I am not complaining mind you, I have my own issues. Anyway, I swore to myself I would never, ever, ever tell anybody about the babyshower thing. It's not her friends fault either - Echo just convinced her that she didn't want one. So now i'll probably be labeled as a bad person for admitting this. But don't you see - this is a group of people with whom there is no winning. You got your excellent, awesomelly organized babyshower, it was a great time, and i was so glad that you liked it. I swore I'd never tell you this, but reading all the things that are being said about me here, i felt i had no choice but to release a few snippits of my own in the hopes of making you see, when you are there in your negative thoughts (as I also do at times), there is positivity, you just so often have a realy hard time seeing and acknowledging that. I am not writing any of this for the masses of people reading this blog. but i figured if bits and pieces of what I say seem to be ending up here now anyway, might as well start here.

My dear wife, I hope we can make our relationship work. I hope you can see the good sides too, and there are lots. I hope you can realize that you have a huge negative colored glasses on sometimes, and you get in modes where nothing seems good and all is bad (and perhaps I push you there, that is entirely possible, but there is also a lot of things about communication problems in our relationship that existed from the day we met, long before any of the baggage described here occurred)

Echo and i have problems communicating in our relationship, and wiht the twins we have had no, absolutely no time in the past 1.5 years to work on "us". And I could list many more examples, but I just don't feel that listing examples back and forth, or airing every detail of our lives to a mob of people who have already made up their minds about things they have no grounds to make their minds up about in the first place. This is just not conducive to healing and "building" a marriage (remember the title of this website, folks!).

OMG, welcome to MB! I encourage you to start a separate thread. We do have couples who both post on the boards, but on separate threads, as to prevent "he said she said" arguments. MB is a program that is proven to restore marriages, and I hope that you find what you are looking for here. I encourage you to start with the Basic Concepts.

Ha, there he is, actually with a relatively positive note after telling me "stop talking trash behind my back".

H is not evil of course, and he does love me in his own way. I am wearing a ruby ring he bought me when I was too pregnant to wear my normal wedding ring. Obviously there are things I adore in this man to make me marry him in the first place. Our life is not 100% miserable, otherwise it would have been much easier to make a decision. I can go on with a list of good things he has done for me. That is not the point.

I probably should not have given him the link but I don't mind him coming here or not, starting his own thread or not. I know H is eager to work on communications and let bygones be bygones. I can't get there yet without figuring out sth first, on my own.

I need to find inner peace on my own terms, before I can do anything else.

I have begged for her to see somebody for her own problems
She is. Tomorrow.

it is almost impossible to have a normal conversation with my wife, which is why we are where we are.
If you want us to understand your side, and change our opinions of you, you will have to GIVE us some of those examples.

Yelling doesn’t allow one to hear any response
Then why do you yell at your wife and children? With the F word and worse?

I have been trying everything to be able to have a normal conversation with Echo, and it just doesn’t seem possible.
If you have a wife who is willing to contemplate suicide just to be rid of you, there is a lot that isn’t possible. We could start with why she would feel that way in the first place.

You COULD answer some questions, so that we can understand your side and if valid, change our opinion of you.

Such as, why do you fight so much to go back and live with your family when you know your wife hates it, feels outnumbered and ganged up on, and is so miserable she has to run away from you?

Why do you take your parents’ side so much, and why don’t you defend your own wife’s right to raise her children as SHE sees fit instead of how your mother sees fit?

Tell me, what would you all do if somebody, and then more people, and then more yet, started talking about you like this behind your back without ever asking you for your opinion first?
I would ask MYSELF why every single person reading your W’s post came to the same conclusion. I would ask myself if so many people see danger in me, am I really a danger? Could I possibly be wrong? What is it about myself that makes my wife want to kill herself? If you really loved her, you would be willing to consider the possibility that we see something you don’t. Here’s a clue. Abusers NEVER see themselves as abusers.

do you think it is helpful, or hurtful, when a couple has communication problems, to see snippets of their life and communication taken totally out of context and posted in a public forum so that the readers can hack away and talk badly about the other person? Do you really think this helps?
If the examples are CLEAR indicators of abuse and control, yes it IS helpful. Because a victim of abuse can’t see it for herself because she’s too tied up in wanting to defend her H and loving him, yet wanting to take care of herself and stop being miserable. Parents do NOT put their baby on the floor if it won’t stop crying and walk away from it.

to just have a normal conversation with my wife that she doesn't take so personal as to launch into a depressive tailspin every time we try to have a normal conversation?
Why do you think your discussions put her into a tailspin? Is it because you are getting what you want and she is having to fight tooth and nail to keep anything she wants? Why do you have to visit your parents 3 to 6 times a year? When she doesn’t get to see her mother more than once a year? How is that fair?

Echo and i have problems communicating in our relationship, and wiht the twins we have had no, absolutely no time in the past 1.5 years to work on "us".
If you have enough money to spend $8000 on shipping furniture, and pay for 3 to 6 international trips a year, why can you not afford a nanny to help you with twin babies?

fwiw, I would love for you to reconcile for the kids’ sake. But it would have to be with you operating in a completely different way, IMO. Your wife does NOT feel safe with you. She is beaten down from stress and depression. She needs to protect herself. If you truly love her, you will let her learn these boundaries she needs so that your marriage is equal, and she can be a happy, loving wife.

Are you willing to let her do that?

I find it interesting that you feel the need to pick every sentence and write a comment on it. Why is that, "catwoman"? you seem to have your information wrong. I don't know where you keep harping on 3-6 international trips to Belgium. I'm lucky if I get to go once, and then it's fighting tooth and nail. One year we went several times when we were both interviewing for jobs there, of course. But since I met Echo I have gone to Belgium at best 1/year except that time when we were interviewing. When we met, Echo never even wanted to go to China. I asked her to go, she said no, every time I go I get upset and I get sick. When she did go, I asked her to bring back little things, souvenirs, family things, family furniture, whatever. She wasn't going to but then she did, and she was glad she did. I have told Echo repeatedly that if there is anything that has family emotional value that she would like to ship here from China, we should do it. I like family stuff, both our families. She says there's nothing.

So now things have changed, and Echo does want to visit China more often: that's no problem. I have always said that we can make a trip per year to China, and a trip per year to Belgium, and get the best of both worlds. As kids get a little older, we leave the kids with the family and we can go explore on our own for a few days in each of these wonderful continents.

Again you seem to have the wrong impression. I'm not a controller who pushes his own country on his wife and subdues her own, as you suggest.

regarding your "tailspin" question: what is going into a tailspin is not Echo (she's solid as a rock), but your opinions and this entire conversation .

I can go on, and I won't, and you will think that this is because in reality I can't go on because in reality i'm just some abuser who's time is up (after all, remember the movie plot: i deny being an abuser therefore I must be one), and that is fine. You are one of these people who thinks they have it all figured out. There is no point discussing anything here - you have your own anger issues to deal with, that is what I think, "catwoman". But then again I'm no expert, I'm just some abusive controlling freak. I will share my thoughts and feelings in detail with somebody who can help, not an angry person like yourself who thinks it is totally fine to label somebody else they have never even heard of themselves.

By the way, I didn't "tell" my wife to stop talking trash about me, I "asked" her. Every little thing you read is worded in a certain way as to project me in a certain way, but sometimes reality is a bit different. I know, it's ridiculous to even mention this, right? I wouldn't even think of mentioning that, but in this trail the difference between "telling" and "asking" appears to define whether one is abusive and controlling or not, so I just wanted to set that record straight.

Oh, one more thing. Let's set the record straight (since you brought it up again, "catwoman") about the starch in the milk incident. I felt terrible that the little guy was waking up starving every night, so I asked my mom innocently if there was something we could do. She mentioned adding starch (or something similar - the starch is not the point). Echo went ballistic as a first reaction (classic when I try to bring up anything), then later calmed down and suggested perhaps we could try cream instead of starch. I just didn't see this in any way as threatening. Echo is the mother of our children, and she is a life saver. She takes care of them in ways that I don't even know where she gets it from. She knows what to do. I'm shocked she would even think that I think she doesn't do a good job, I have told her on several occasions, for no reason at all, just out of the blue, that she is a terrific mother. I have said this several times. Of course, "catwoman", you don't know about these things. how could you, you're only told one side. If Echo felt so offended by this small incident that she felt I had to stick up for her, well then i'm just surpised. Come on, who hasn't had a grandparent suggest one thing or another. When we were in China I heard all kinds of advice from Echo's mom. I sure never blew up about anything, you just take it for what it is. But to Echo this was about more, it was deeper, and well I gotta tell you, that leaves me just clueless. A tiny innocent incident, just blows up in your face. Yep, I'm a controlling abuser alright. You got it all figured out "catwoman".

OMG, I have not read all the replies but I have read Echo's posts. You are coming across quite condescending in your replies here, which will only serve to fuel the 'abuse' accusations.

**EDIT**

Yep. According to every poster here, according to your wife, and according to the therapist she previously went to - the professional therapist.

How about you go back and answer all the questions people presented to you? Give us your 'side' so we can get that better picture of what's really going on, and then give better advice.

Would you like us to re-list all the questions we had for you? You still haven't addressed them.

A long one: part 3 of 3. WHY MEN ACQUIRE A STATE OF FRUSTRATION, ANGER AND ANXIETY.

This is a long one and I have no illusions that anybody will be able to stay awake to read this whole thing. What is important to me is that Echo reads

it. It is honest, perhaps too honest. Some of you may say "he's not accepting responsibility for his own actions and shoves the blame to someone else". Rest assured I am fully aware of my own issues that I am working through, and Echo knows this more than anyone. This is a "marriage builder" blog, so I thought I'd stick to the reasons related to "us" here, as I continue to work my own issues in a different setting.

My wife had a few books from the library yesterday, and if i combine the titles it pretty much says something like "why men are angry". Speaking only

for myself, I think that question is more correct as "who do men become angry". So i started thinking about the reasons. Not to shove the blame on

someone else, and I know I can be impatient and I have my own issues to deal with. But why do men in general, and me specifically, slowly over time

become angry and resentful? Some of this is addressed to you, Echo, specifically. Some of this is more general. Most female readers will hate to read

this. But if you write books about this topic and recommend to other women that they should read books about it, then why not just go to the source and

ask a man this same question? let's be direct about it and go to the direct source rather than read generalized books about it. Sure these will be

helpful in their own way and educational, and in fact I am wanting to read some of them myself. I am always curious about what makes people act and talk

and behave the way they do. It's the curious scientist in me, I guess. My answers here are honest, open, and I am very conscious in mind that I walk a

fine line between having the readers interpret this as "he's pushing the blame onto somebody else and not accepting his own responsibility". Rest

assured I accept full responsibility for where I am, and for where we are as a couple. But you ask and you recommend about this topic, so here you go.

Along the way you will find some answers hopefully to some of the questions posed here earlier. Keep in mind that with a hostile audience, no answer is

ever good enough, every answer always only leads to more questions, and every answer is not believed. So, "catwoman", answering your specific questions

actually I consider an exercise in futility. Whether it is 2 partners in a relationship being so hurt that they can't hear eachother, or whether it's a

few women who feel they have made up their mind about me as a controlling abuser, either way, no answers are good enough and no amount of logical

conversation can ever convince them otherwise. So going down that path, just like screaming back when a spouse screams at you, is just not a sensible

thing to spend time on.

So what makes men, me, acquire a state of frustration and subtle anger? For me, and i think for some other men in general, one thing is your constant

need for validation and fear of being left. And I understand why you feel that way, and I know you are not alone in this sence. But because I

understand it doesn't necessarily mean that its omnipresence doesn't influence me and frustrate me over time. I've read some sociology and anthropology

books in my days, human nature and the deep rooted reasons of why we do the things that we do, why we as a species are who and how we are, has always

fascinated me. Stick with me here, this will become relevant later on. I always felt that most of what we do and how we are can be explained by looking

into our far history. I have always believed that we are human animals, and let's face it: 2 animals don't usually stay married, though I agree there

are documented cases of certain species mating for life. Anyway, taking the rest of the 99.999% of the species on earth, including the humans, you see

that it is not natural for a couple to stay together. in fact across cultures all over the world, the average number of years a couple stays together

before they divorce I somewhere between 4-7 years. The reason? it is natural for the couple to stay together long enough to have a child (or more) and

stay together during the most difficult years to rear the child. For the human animal, back when we were drawing on walls in caves and long before that,

it took about 4 years. Adding to that the 1 year or so it took to conceive and deliver the child, you have your 4-7 years.

Why am I saying this? Does this mean I want to divorce, does it mean I am "feeling the itch"? of course not, I am writing this as background

information, scientific fact, truth that influences who we are and how we behave. A lot of our behavior can be traced back to upbringing, certain events

that did happen, or certain events that didn't but should have. But deep down, our very basic behavior, was predetermined by primordial wirings we

cannot control nor deny.

OK, so we have established that deep down it is human nature, urge, genes, natural reaction, reflex, whatever you want to call it, to un-bond after a few

years. At the same time, we also know that it is in our genes that men hunt and women gather, meaning men used to go out together and hunt big elephant

(and eat a funny plant or two along the way to enjoy the experience, i'm sure), and women stayed home, gathered things that could be found closer to

home, later planted things around the home, and raised the children. Again, i'm not being macho or anything and i'm all for the woman's liberation that

took place starting late 19th early 20th century enabling women all over to live their own true potentials and competing for jobs etc just like men. If

there is anything I've learned where both my wife and I work, and where we work is probably one of the most hectic, difficult, competitive work

environments in the country (think NASA landing on the moon in the '60s, but on steroids), then it sure is that people who are qualified to do this work

are qualified regardless their race, gender, color, religion, etc. Anyway I digress.

So now we have established 2 facts, this is not me making up controlling excuses, it is me stating fact: it is in men's genes to hunt, and it is in

women's genes to gather. And it is in both their genes to not stay together long term.

Ok, so here we are at the question of the day: why do men become acquire a state of frustration? I think there are several reasons but they all boil

down to the same thing. It is hard to be in a relationship with a creature as strange to man as a woman, and vice versa.


1. I have heard about the book "men are from Mars, women are from Venus". I have not read it, just didn't get around to it yet although this is one of

those that I always say "hmm, i want to read this". But I imagine at least part of it covers the established true fact that men and women are, well,

just different. They talk differently, they communicate differently, they have different needs, etc etc. In my own personal relationship, I accept this

and I am OK with it. I am OK that I can't talk to my wife like I would talk to a "normal guy". I am Ok that my wife takes the lead role in decision

making about almost anything in our daily life - and I do mean anything and everything. But what is frustrating is that the opposite isn't true. Women

have this need to talk to their spouse like he's one of the girls. They have a need to share feelings which men are just not wired to do. And so 2

things can happen.
- they try all they can to mold their husband into the person they want him to be; which may or may not become successful
- men, who are not wired to be that way by nature, are being forced to become something they're not, and they get frustrated

Like my wife, I have a strong personality. She has to always be right, she always has an answer ready for everything, and well, usually so do I. We are

both PhD's, driven, competitive, and strong willed. It comes with the territory. So we butted heads on occasion till we realized we both are like that.

Now we hope that when this does happen, one of us catches it early enough in the conversation. Option one - molding me into the person she wants, will

just not happen. I am happy to adapt, to satisfy, to learn, to grow, and to make her happy in any way I can. But a conversation about feelings is

always going to be boring to me, and a conversation about football (or whatever) will always be boring to you. Why fight this? Why can't you just

embrace our differences as creatures of earth passed down to us across millions of generations from the days we were dragging our knuckles, and we can

move on with enjoying eachother rather than trying to change eachother and the other resisting, and getting frustrated and angry because of it?

For example, when we drive home from work, sometimes Echo feels the need to vent her frustrations from work. I sit and listen and say mmmhmm like most

men do. She will interpret this as "he doesn't care about me, he just doesn't love me". The reality, and I can say safely that this is reality, as it

is my behavior that is misinterpreted, and i am pretty sure I know the reasons for my behavior, while Echo would just be guessing - so anyway, the

reality is that I too had a long hard day at the same work place. I manage a few dozen people where I do nothing else all day but go to meetings and

hear people's complaints and frustrations and try to help them fix them. Once I step out of that place, I need to be done with it. I don't want to even

hear myself talk about work, let alone somebody else. You may say, "oh, so your work is more important than your life/wife". Well I have news for you.

We work in one of the most challenging and competitive environments in the country, we live in a country with the highest per capita productivity and the

worst ratio of work-life balance in the industrialized world. Heck yes, with some laudable exceptions, most of the people in the company we work for do

place work over life. I can't tell you how many times Echo ignored a crying child to go answer a page related to work and jump on her laptop to do

something for work. It frustrates me to no end. I may have my issues but the kids miss us all day long and once we're here with them they really should

have our undivided attention. But that is the nature of our job, and that is the nature of my competitive and driven wife. So what can you do but

accept it.


In our personal life, my wife has been trying to change me into something i'm not, little by little. She is probably not even conscious of it, and if

she is, she probably thinks it is very subtle and i don't notice it. But of course things like that are not invisible. It's like slowly moving a house,

and thinking if you do it an inch at a time, your neighbor won't notice that you're in his yard. but every so often the neighbor takes stock, goes

measure his yard (so to speak) and finds that the data shows that this other house is more and more in his yard each year. So on the instantaneous level

it may feel like nothing is going on, but when I stop and take stock every so often, I know i'm being changed into something you want me to be, your

vision of perfect family, rather than allowing me to be who I am. You say you do so many things for me, and you do, but you don't say the flip side, the

price at which this all comes. I have always said, don't do anything you don't want to do, tell me what you really want. I have shared with you so many

times my frustration at you not being able or willing to tell me what you want. You have already acknowledged that you are a "pleaser" and i'm surprised

it took you this long to conclude that now. I have told you 2 years ago that you were a pleaser, that i wanted to know what YOU wanted and felt, not

what you thought I wanted to hear. it is frustrating and hard to be in a relationship with a pleaser. It is not, as "catwoman" and the others think, a

free ride and awesome time and me taking advantage and controlling you and abusing you. it is annoying, I have asked you so many times to tell me what

YOU wanted, tell me what YOU think. I'm surprised this is new to you, we have had this conversation so many times. But that brings me to my next

point...



2. women are so insecure!! Even if you have it all, you are still worried and as a result you push for more. I have a friend who is single and in his

mid forties. He has his own views about men and women and relationships which we won't delve into here, they're not important and his views are not

mine. But he got a puppy about 3 years ago. Who knew that this guy who is afraid of committing to anything would grow committed to this cute little

puppy. But he did. So he met this woman, probably about a year ago maybe. They really like eachother. She's fun, outgoing, conversational, pretty,

educated, etc. This guy, who is so afraid of committing to anything, is totally willing to "give it a try" and move in together with her. You don't

know this guy, but trust me when I say (and Echo will agree with me here, we've talked about this) this is a huge step for him. Of course it is no

committment, and a commitment is what she really wants (and that is understandable). But the reason she will not move in with him is not because he

won't offer to marry her. It's because of the little maltese puppy. She has told him in no uncertain terms that she'd love to move in with him, but he

has to lose the dog. She doesn't have alergies or anything like that, she just doesn't like that he can feel so much love for that little puppy, and it

is like competition for the same heart for her. Coming back to my story: an interesting parallel. I have a Bunny - one that my wife bought for me

actually. I love that cute little critter. I don't know why, it's just there. it doesn't do anything, it doesn't interact (i know what you're

thinking, you analysts out there!) it just sits there, looks cute, and eats straw. I know, right, if it was a woman and could pop out babies that would

be like the perfect wife, right? That was a joke, relax people. I know some of your minds are going there, so I thought i'd go there with you for a

second before coming back to reality. So anyway, the bunny. Once the kids were born, of course bunny had to go. The official reason was that the bunny

made too much noise (he occasionally thumped for a few minutes at night, which would reverberate through the house). This may sound reasonable to you,

but when you looked at the data (hey, i'm an engineer - as is my wife) that just didn't make sense. Kids woke up every night whether bunny thumped or

not. And my wife would always say "you can't tiptoe your way around sleeping kids, they have to get used to the noises". ok, so on the one hand bunny

has to go because he's too loud (even though there was no correlation to his thumping, which I heard too, and the kids waking up or not), but on the

other we have to make noise and not tiptoe around the kids. That just does not make sense to me. I suspect the real reason is that you simply felt (and

still do) threatened. My husband does not love me (at least so you think) but he loves his bunny, so the bunny must go. it's a competition for the

heart, whether it's with a bunny or a puppy. So this brings me to my next point...

3. you can be so logical, and yet you can be so illogical! Oh sure, you claim with pride that you can be very cold and logical. Cold yes, logical,

hardly. Coupled with that goes language. Men in general, and I'm no exception, are simple beings. You have already devined this fact from my few

writings here on this blog you invited me to. When we feel something we try to express it, when we say something we try to use simple words and make

sure that what we said is what we meant. Women - well maybe I shouldn't generalize but I've read enough man vs. woman jokes on the topic to know that

this is pretty general - anyway, you certainly, still don't understand after my years of pleaing and asking, to communicate with me simply and truthfully

and honestly. Is it really that impossible for you? If you feel upset that my mom suggests to use starch upon my request, is it that hard to tell me

simply "this statement bothers me, i told her i didn't want any advice, i'm just going to ignore this, please acknowledge me and tell me i'm a great

mother and we don't need your mom's advice". That's all. You want me to divine all this when you know there is no way any man would have guessed this.

Topic over, no problems, no arguements, everybody is happy. Nothing builds up over time. Women, is it that impossible for you to just tell us how you

feel and what you want, just be honest and feel free enough in the perfect relationship you so crave to be honest? you want the perfect relationship,

the perfect marriage, but you are incapable of simple communication! Of course, everything I said here goes the other way as well. Men adn women are

just different and what makes perfect sense to one just doens't make any sense to the other. Why? well that is a different topic and whole 'nother

blog. If the answer is "yes, it's not possible, we're women and we're wired this way", well then my answer is "OK, and we're men, and we're not wired

that way either". so where do we go from here?


4. Communication... you deduce from the most innocent comments the most absurd conclusions, rooted in your own insecurities. For example back to the

good old starch incident. First of all you never told me that you had written my parents to tell them not to give you any advice. I never even knew

this was such a big issue with you, at all. From an innocent suggestion like why is he so hungry at night, you leash into a huge argument because

basically you feel offended that a grandparent suggested something. Guess what, this is what grandparents do. they suggest things. Your mom suggests

things to me, my mom suggests things to you. It is what they do. And what do we as parents do? In a logical world, we evaluate their advice, decide if

we want to use it or not, and then either use it or discard it. we smile and say thank you. In your world, we blow up and lash into a huge argument

about 3 other topics, and then complain to strangers (but never to me!) that we don't feel validated and that we feel our husband should have stood up

for us. Guess what, I'm still standing there in the kitchen with my jab dropped and drool running out by now wondering what the heck just happened! My

gosh, it just doesn't make any sense at all. You relate things to eachother like nobody else can, you make conclusions (usually negative towards

yourself) that no logical man ever would, and then you don't tell me about it - but expect me to divine all this. This is what makes men achieve a state

of anger.


5. selective memory. We all suffer from it. by my gosh, you are the queen of selective memory. And that itself is so frustrating. You remember a

sentence here, a statement there, an act there, and you take it out of context, string them together, and conclude that my husband doesn't love me. It's

so hard to be in a relationship with you because of this. You remember them so clearly word for word. But I have a pretty good memory too, I remember

conversations I've had with people, word for word, what they were wearing, where we stood, from years ago. And I remember most of the things you say.

but I also remember all the other parts and sentences and context of that same conversation, and you apparently don't (or choose not to). Here is my

armchair sociologist/anthropologist theory - go ahead, bring out your guns all you readers out there, so you can shoot holes in it!. Women are more

emotional and they tend to remember certain things by associating them with feelings. For example, we have all had the experience of smelling something

and that brings back a memory from long ago that we would have never remembered othewise. That's just an example, and i think it's the same way with

feelings/emotions. Your insecurity hears a particular trigger word or sentence (and this could be anything really, the man has no clue as it could

literally be anything - i have found from experience). You associate an emotion with that driven by your insecurity, often a negative feeling. And you

latch onto that. A week later another seemingly innocent conversation happens, and you hear another trigger word that i have no clue about, and you

stuff that into the same negative emotional feeling bag. You stuff and stuff week after week till the bag is full. You take stock of yourself on

occasion, much like the neighbor measuring his yard, usually in a state where something happened to trigger you to take stock (and, no offense, often

about every month or so, if you know what I mean. Hey we're being honest, and that is the data, and you and I have talked about that and you've even

agreed with me after realizing it and observing the data for yourself. It's OK, it is not your fault, and there is no blame, just honest discussion.

The question of the day is "why are men angry" and well, we're digging into part of the answers). So you take stock and you see all these full bags of

negative emotional baggage, remember every word and sentence they were associated with, and think that's your life, how bad it is. There is no hope.



So, Echo, I am not controlling you in any way. I am not asking you or telling you to do anything. I am not invalidating any feelings. I would love for

you to be the healthiest person you can be, it will only help our relationship and help us grow together. You are the queen of classic woman behavior

(hey, he's being abusive!!), and I may be right up there with the kinds of classic guy behavior, but i'm no idiot, I don't fall into the classic buckets

that your followers have been laying out for you, and despite what you readers all think, I don't sit around and grunt and watch TV with a beer in my

hand and the other hand halfway down my pants. I think about us, about you, about me, and our relationship. I wonder why things happen, I wonder why we

are as humans the way we are, I wonder how we can be better. I fear this country is on the wrong track, I fear it for my children - our children. I

worry about whether we are doing the right things with them all the time. I shared with you long before you realized it that we had communication

problems in our relationship. I shared with you long before you came to realize it that you are a pleaser (hey, some may say that i was controlling and

abusive for calling you a pleaser!!), and that I hoped you could shake that off because it doesn't help our relationship. I have asked you to get help

on this part on numerous occasions, and some day when your shields are down and you don't think you are so much smarter than everybody else anymore (it's

not really what you think, but it's one of your protective layers, I know honey) including your therapist, I know you will get healthier and happier.

Your happiness is in your hands, not mine. All I can do is not stand in your way, and I'm not. Ever.

But I am also asking you (uh-oh, here comes the control!), do not try to change me into something I am not just because you are insecure. Do not try to

take away any of the very few things I care about outside of you and the kids because you think somehow there isn't enough of me to go around, or because

of jealousy, or because of insecurity, or whatever. It pushes me away and it makes me frustrated, worried, anxious, and yes, at times angry. Yes you

can list a few examples of things that happened in our past that when a stranger sees them on a string like that they will say "oh my, he is

controlling". I can put my list of examples of things together and call you the "H" and me the "W", and actually I have thought this would be an

interesting exercise. I bet you money that I will get the same responses. Get out now honey. Run honey. Oh honey, he is so abusive. Of course they

wouldn't know i'm talking about you, a woman. But this is no longer the point.

Anyway, why do men, why do I, slowly over time acquire a state of anger and worry and anxiety and discomfort? and i don't mean a sudden outburst of

anger, I mean the general "state" of feeling anger and resentment? You don't need a book written by an MD Psychiatrist, my dear wife, it's all here. At

least this is my story. And in our relationship, the one between you and me, if you're wondering what makes me that way, then well my story is the only

answer that is relevant, and I am giving it to you here. Stop trying to change us when we're good enough only because you are so insecure about our

relationship that it can never possibly be good enoguh. I don't hit you, I don't mistreat you, I make a good living, I come home every night after work,

I feel guilty even once a quarter having a drink from 5-6pm with my group, I feel guilty once a year having to go to a 7am meeting. I buy you rings

after shopping around and picking what I feel is the right one. We traveled the globe together before we had kids, and marveled together at the

simplicity of a birdie taken a bath in a puddle along the road. I don't complain when I give you a necklace for Xmas before we were married and you gave

it back and said "if you don't give me a ring, i don't want anything at all", when you hadn't even met my parents once yet. We go out every weekend and

try to have fun together as best we can with the kids. I gave up every hobby that doesn't fit in the kids schedule, and I gave up wanting to live in a

different continent for you. I take care of all the work outside the house in the large yard, and fit it in during kids naps when i really could use a

nap myself (and usually while you are napping). I take care of all the money stuff, the bill paying, worrying about setting up life insurance for both

of us so that the other is taken care of, etc etc. I have changed about as many diapers, poopy and other, as you have. I've been puked on and peed on

and drooled on like you have. We have gone through the lowest of lows together and toghether we have been slowly climbing our way back out, all the

while raising 2 kids and having 2 full time jobs. Is life really that bad? The classic joke is that women want everything you have and then they want

your soul too. You can have everything you want from me, i'm a [censored] cat in your hands, i just ask that you don't try to change me or take away any more

things from me.


It's 6:30am and one of the kids just woke up. I love the little guy, and go down to fix him his bottle as I marvel in the fact that I am lucky enough to

be able to do this. Am I sorry I yelled at him, on two occasions, even after you asked me not to? Absolutely. Am I sorry I have referred to them at

times with bad words? Totally. Yelling at him was unacceptable and will not happen again. I said these words that day, and it hasn't happened since,

and it will not. Do I have an "anger problem" or am I a "controlling abuser"? Absolutely not. Have I enjoyed "the free ride" - have I even "had" a

free ride, with you as a pleaser? heck no. There was never a free ride, and I'm glad you finally are in a place where you recognize you need help.

Your own insecurities are in part to blame for the state of our relationship and our lack of ability to communicate. No question about it though, my own

issues carry the other half of the blame. But that doesn't make me an abuser or a controller any more than it makes you one. I have given up and

changed and admitted and given in and accepted everything you have wanted from me, from the hardest decision in my life to the daily everyday little

things. Writing this has made me see this, and I am hopeful that you see at one point that this is true and that you will accept that I will not erode

myself any further either. I hope your journey of healing is enjoyable to you, and I will do what I can and what you need to help you. I will not

however, as part of that process give up who I am any further to further satisfy the needs you have that arise out of your low selfesteem and self doubt.

This is a marriage, and we are in it together, and we should respect eachother's wishes and work to make them come true (within reason) rather than

fight against them. Lest you get worried, moving to Europe is not one of my wishes anymore given you don't want that - but traveling there once a year

with the entire family definitely is. We should help eachother along our individual growth paths, not give into eachother to accomodate. We should

trust eachother enough that when they say something, it is out of love and to help, rather than to hurt. One day we will be there, and it will be a

perfect day.

The end.

H, you might want to consider editing your post so that it does not get broken every two lines, painful to read.

YOu have been coming back to post more after each post and telling me "I won't go back there". Again, feel free to do what you see fit.

I have meetings until my therapy, so I won't reply for now. I appreciate your efforts to post your message. I shall respond accordingly.

Thank you cat. I passed out when I put down my kid to sleep last night and did not read until now. H told me you are my defender in chief. I will follow up in the afternoon when I am back from my therapy.

Don't you think, OMG, that explaining your behavior by comparing yourself to a caveman is counter-productive to improving your relationship with your wife? "I can't help it, it's in my genes!" Well, don't you think you should be a bit more evolved than your ancient ancestors?

OMG, it is quite possible you are not an abuser; that you simply come from an overbearing family that defends you over all others, that makes you feel you need to remain close to them -even as close as your marriage - in order to get their praise and affection; a family that taught you to spin to get what you need and to never admit fault; that never taught you decent skills to deal with people so what you developed - through dealing with them - is a sort of dysfunctional power play or game, and it is with which you judge your success; and that spoiled you enough that when you deal with another person you simply cannot detach enough from your own wants/needs to empathize with theirs.

Whether or not you fall into a 'typical' category doesn't even matter, though I think your pride is taking a severe tumble by coming here. What really matters is that how you interact with your wife causes her to not like you.

This isn't a blame game, and the winner comes out less blameful. It's a marriage in which you're supposed to want a good life together. When you leave your wife at the hospital to go do something for yourself; when you refuse to go to doctor's visits with her (for the babies YOU wanted) because it's 'boring'; when you side with your parents over your wife - you are not being a good husband. You are being selfish.

You cannot continue to be selfish and expect her to remain happy with you, to want to stay with you, to be willing to put up with 40 more years of having to fight for what she wants.

Let down the shield, throw away the glib responses, expect nothing from your relationship other than what you earn...and you might be able to recreate a decent life with her.

Or you can continue to be proud of how much you do for her (even though it's not meeting her ENs); of how much you're willing to change (but haven't); and how much like your ancestors you are acting.

All it will get you is divorced.

Hi Aileen and OhMiGosh, welcome to Marriage Builders. I am sorry you find yourself here, but glad you made it to the right place.

I am afraid that much time has been wasted, however, pointing the finger of blame and hashing over grievances. That never works as you can see. It just makes people angry. When someone is angry they are not focusing on SOLUTIONS. There was abuse on both sides, but the solution is not to focus on who gets the Demon of the month AWARD, but to focus on RECOVERY.

This thread demonstrates the very reason that the Harleys don't counsel couples together, they just become long gripe sessions where the couple leaves angrier than when they came in! Why in the world would anyone pay good money for that?

I strongly suggest that you start a new thread focusing on RECOVERY instead of grievances. Gripe sessions help no one.

If you want to have a happy marriage, then there are some basic principles that really, really can get you there if you will follow them. You would get enormous help from His Needs, Her Needs followed by LOVEBUSTERS. Dr Harley recommends reading them together and highlighting the parts that are most important to you both.

You can buy the books on this website very cheaply.

In the meantime, I would start by reading Dr. Harley's basic concepts Basic Concepts and focus carefully on Lovebusters. From there, go to the questionaire section and take the Emotional Needs Questionaire and the Lovebusters questionaire. When you are done, exchange them.

That is a START, but if you can afford it, I would strongly recommend phone coaching with the Harleys. They will assess your situation and give you a PLAN. They won't waste your time as do most marriage counselors [84% failure rate] with navel gazing or gripe sessions. They are worth every penny.

And please, I implore you to stop focusing on grievances and assigning blame. Nor is the answer in your "childhood." It is nothing but a DIVERSION from RECOVERY.

Considering that her number one stress factor seems to be his predilection for being with or near his parents, at the expense of her desires, where the three of them tell her what she's doing wrong, ignore her wishes as far as her own children are concerned, and he doesn't feel any need to defend her in their presence, I would reconsider that.

Of course, it's possible that with MB he may come to see how destructive that is in a family, and quit doing all of it, and she'll then feel inclined to be less combative concerning them.

But if his parents process Change Back! behavior once he does that, and he crumbles and backtracks to please his parents because he hasn't addressed the underlying issue, they're back at square one.

I am back. I like my therapist. He suggested I keep individual therapy for a while and will invite H in when he sees fit. He will suggest a therapist for marriage counseling but not for now.

Yesterday H came back from his therapy pretty happy. He suggested we do an excercise "speaker and listener". Here is how it went:
H: here is an example of my parents and the starch incident.
Me: Yes I emailed them specificly about not solicting parental advice.
H: it was totally benign as I asked for advice for poor Leo who woke up so much at night.
Me: he woke up because he did not eat well. He does not eat well at home even when us, esp. he was taken out of daycare for a few days (to spend time with inlaws as requested).
H: you just like to link all negative things together.
Me: so that is how you define me.
H: yes.
End of speaker and listener excercise.

Have I been treating H well for the past two years?
Absolutely not. I functioned, I gave him silent treatment most of the time, I kept the days going. I have been emotionally shut down since he yelled at his wife who was pregnant through IVF due to his reproduction issues and was battling morning sickness "you trapped me in this marriage, you trapped me in this pregnancy". I was driven mad enough to want a divorce and an abortion right there. Something inside of me just died and has not come back to life.
Yes we don't have a good communication, esp for the past two years and I could barely live with him.
I dreaded weekends when H would be home looking miserable, complaining the lack of his space, his time, his life, telling me "Leo is so annoying". I could handle another set of twins on top of mine, but I have trouble handling such a husband.
I also looked back at pre-kids life with longings but being parents is part of the life, kids are a huge part of the life now. First year of parenthood of course resulted in lack of quality time between H and me, on top of a stressful job. H always asks about having a babysitter on the weekend for some free time. We only did it a couple of times for the lack of a dependable babysitter, I feel we are not spending enough time with kids through the week where they spend 9 hours daily in daycare, also I don't have enough incentive to go out with H when I know he will curse the driver in front of us, who'd better not be a Mexican or Asian, he will find sth wrong with whatever we were doing and voice his negative opinions. I have not recovered enough liking of H to be eager to spend alone time with him on regular basis. I started coming back a little recently as H warms up towards kids.

I would love to watch kids a few hours on the weekend while you go off to do sth you truly enjoy like soccer, could you do the same for me? So far you refused to be alone with kids. Yes you take care of money stuff, yard work, I have offered to trade you for what I do for the family and you did not like the idea?

I never deny my issues and I know I have been a pleaser to you because I care and want to make you happy. I am seeking help now as you have pulled the last straw of my security by yelling/yanking our baby. Yes you admited it was wrong and you would not do it again and you have not done it since. I am paranoid and furious to even think about the remote possibility.

You said I am slowly changing you and taking more things away from you. By that you are referring to your wish to move back to Belgium, your bunny, your friend and your parents. When your wife who had C-section a few days ago and who was getting up every 2 hours to attend the babies, told you bunny was waking up babies next door. You told her "no f*cking way". WHy couldn't you just believe her? You said you did not hear it. Yes you were stone cold with sleeping pills every night, there were days you don't even remember you had sex the night before or not. So you assume your wife was lying to get rid of your bunny which is part of your heart.

Yes I no longer enjoy visiting Belgium the way I used to. I feel nauseous to even stand in the same room where you screamed at me what if you chose to go to Belgium even if I didn't want to. My feeling towards your family is skewed by how I feel about you and by their interference. Oh you should move here for good for love. You place more importance on money than family. yes you can get used to the language, the culture in no time. You should do this small thing for your husband.
How about we respect each other and draw the line somewhere?

Your mom told me it is only natural for a man to be lazy and selfish, the earlier I accept that, the happier I will be. Your dad comments we argue when we have problems, we create problem and argue when there is no problem. I told you I do NOT want them to be here right after childbirth. I told you I WANT to hire a CHinese duola. You said you WANT your parents here and they will take care of everything. Your parents left after one week instead of the one month plan. THe last thing your mom said to me "You should be nice to your husband." In June in Belgium your mom sneered at how rude Americans were as there was no gifts or greetings from our neighbours when our kids were born. In fact there were. And I almost told her in no culture it is OK for inlaws to break their promise and dump newborn grandchildren and daughter-in-law right after sugery behind.
I did not say anything. My mom raised me better than that.

I have repeatedly told you to hold off your parents' advice to yourself if they have to say sth. It is NOT helpful to tell me I should have done such and such when I was up all night with kids while you slept downstairs (yes you said you were waken up by the crying and you were thus as tired as I was). I have repeatedly told you that I would NOT leave kids where I can't hear them as suggested by your parents. I would not send my kids to Belgium for one month or two even if you mom asks often. I said all these I want and I don't want. You told me I took what they said too seriously, they only did what all grandparents would do and I am paranoid. Now you tell me I have NEVER said anything?

First time I mentioned I wanted to get greencard for my mom to visit us. you said "I would not feel comfortable with her in the house". Later you sent me a note that you are OK for my mom to stay with us with the condition that she can help around the house and at night with kids. Even after all discussion we had about being fair, you still insisted we go to Belgium once a year and can consider adding a trip to China on TOP of that. And wait, you want to go back to Belgium next SPRING and Xmas.
Regardless what happened between your parents and me, I still hold an open door for them and treat them with courtesy. I thank them everyday for caring for kids (even I don't agree with their ways at times) and preparing for dinner. HOw about being grateful for that?

I also told you that your single 46yr friend makes embarassing sexual jokes in front of my guests, he should not come to visit us every Friday night and asked what we have for dinner for him AND his dog when I just gave birth, I told you I was uncomfortable when he talked about his experience with prostitute, drugs, folders of naked pic from his previous sexual encounters. This is the guy who complained about not able to join us for vacation in Belgium because my morning sickness did not allow the trip to Paris (yes you agreed it was overdone but took no offense), the guy who insisted we take care of his puppy during his vacation while the puppy kept me up all night and jumped on and off my prengant belly (yes you saw it was a bad idea and returned the puppy and your friend was upset afterwards). You told me I was being too uptight, and accused me of taking YOUR pleasure and YOUR friend away from you.

I have told you repeatedly I do NOT want to move to Belgium. Yet you repeatedly pushed it back at me even in my most volnerable period of my life. You screamed, argued and yelled "it is f*cking not acceptable"! Yes you eneded up staying, you feel you gave up Belgium for me, you feel you gave up everything for me. You think I talk trash about you. Yes I could be taking things out of context as you said, I could be wearing a huge pair of negative glasses as you said, I have selective memories for bad things as you said, yet you have to admit they all existed, they all happened, and they are below common decency!!!

Once I mentioned my suicidal thought and the pain of thinking about Leo and Sean. You said "not even a thought of me, hmm?" Did you hear? DId you hear your wife was so miserable that she wanted to dump herself off the road? All you hear was she did not think about you at all.

When we met you said you wanted a nuturing relationship and I gave you one, until I shut myself down two years ago. Yes you love me, but only at your convenience, with your timing and in your own ways.

If you love a woman, please care for her.
If you are not able to care for a woman, please appreciate her.
If you are not able to appreciate to a woman, please respect her.
If you are not able to respect a woman, please do NOT hurt her.

Why did you marry this man if he does not love, care for, nor respect you? Why did you put up with it and have his children?

Did he really want for you to have children???? He sounds like he never wanted them.

Stellakat, it did not start that way, obviously. We loved each other, we had a lot of fun together, we went to Antarctica together, we shared common interest. We were a perfect couple of happy times.

H loved the idea of kids but strugged with the reality of them, he is only turning around the corner very recently.

Well it sounds like things are slowly slowly changing for the better. I hope you can get back to the mutual love and respect you had in the beginning. Maybe your husband had not been around children long term so he did not know his whole life would be stressed and changed forever by them. I am glad he is accepting those limitations now....it sounds like you are working and contributing financially since children are quite expensive.

(I am biased in that I never wanted to have children and I see mostly the negative regarding raising children)

Children are expensive
They can ruin a marriage
Children add stress
Children are the biggest responsibility
Children can be nightmares
Children have difficult personalities sometimes
Children are needy
Children test patience
Children are always around
Children make constant noise
There is no peace when children are clamoring
Children can be big millstones around your neck
Children make your life difficult for years
Children usually eliminate early retirement
Children are ungrateful
Children drain your resources
Demanding

I am sure there are many things good about having and raising children, I just dont see it.

Stellkat, LOL I can see where you come from. Having children or not is a very personal choice and yes they are a HUGE commitment.

And yes I have a full time job apart from being a twins' mom. THey are a morgage alone. THey can be all the things you listed but they can also so much more on the other side too.