It just seems like the whole family is miserable, and I spent most of the evening trying to help the kids feel better and not argue, and H basically told me I was annoying.

When he doesn't want me around like this, I don't know what else to do other than go to the bedroom. But that just leaves him to deal with the kids and I think they need me, cus he mostly sits in front of the computer and lets them fight or whatever. But if I stick around in the same room the kids hear him insult me or ignore me.

Your whole family is under readjustment pressure and stress. It is like four cats adjusting to a new environment. I know how it is I moved 25 times as a child.

So things seem worse, people react badly, etc.

What is wrong with your husband letting the kids fight it out? Could you stay out of it and not try and comfort them (I dont know much about kids, maybe let them fight sometime, what would supernanny do?)

Maybe a nice break from kids and husband would do you good. You work so hard, too hard.

Thanks Stella!

What would Supernanny do, I wish I knew! I think she'd take the upset kid, the one that seemingly is more overlooked, aside and talked to him. I tried that with 6b though and took a long time to get not much of a response, a bit of a smile that he tried to hide.

I really feel like we are rotten parents. At least as much my fault as his, since I set the tone years ago when he was in Canada most of the year.

What's wrong with H letting the kids fight it out? I'm not sure if this is one of those "Fathers act like fathers not like mothers so don't expect them to mother" or if it's actual neglect. I wish I knew.

Is it possible to take parenting classes without ppl thinking you've been accused of abuse? Like, if you're taking one of those driver's ed classes that drunk drivers have to take, no one would ever take one if they weren't convicted of drunk driving, KWIM?

Maybe I'll give it another week or two... or maybe until we at least have carpet and furniture... and if we don't seem more normal and less screaming, maybe I'll suggest family counseling. Or am I over-reacting?


So tempting. But I'm kinda afraid H would *like* that, me being gone.

Wed. night I had an evening class so H did everything that evening. Yesterday I felt sick and went back home after taking the kids to school. I kept trying to work on the computer but I kept falling asleep. Again H had to get dinner and put the kids to bed etc. I'm not giving him much DS right now and he'd prolly just as soon not have to talk to me either.

Last night went pretty good though, for some reason. Pleasant dinner conversation and he seemed to not mind me going right back to bed.

A little while ago he came to bed and I apologized for my part. I asked if we could talk, he agreed to bring it up sometime tomorrow. (If I brought it up it would be nagging.) I'm not sure exactly what I want to talk about. Just whining "I need to feel closer to you!" won't do any good.

Jayne, I'm alarmed reading your post. When women feel abandoned, they leave. It's all in that Why Women Leave Men. The best gift you can give your kids is a strong marriage. I don't think that you initiating a conversation is nagging, and I feel sad reading you DJ yourself like that.

I think it's an attitude thing, too. What you have to say is important, and worth listening to.

What do you think God's plan is for you here? What about spending some quiet time to ask for guidance? I don't think it's to learn to be more submissive. To set it up with your H that he gains at your expense. I wonder if t is so you can see how you ignore our own perspective, to help you connect with your own perspective. To look to Him instead of your H for guidance.

Jayne, personally, I found myself that I held my H up as a Higher Power in many ways. Not just being considerate, but going way beyond that to attempt to shield him from any consequences of his behavior. Being supportive as he made decision after decision where he gained at the kids' and my expense. Futilely complaining instead of changing my actions. Because I was so scared of losing what little affection he gave, what little peace we did have.

I've been trying to spend one-on-one time with each kid. H interferes, because he wants time with both, but it's been great for me and the girls, so I'm finding better times, woorking the time out with H first, instead of times that he was planning to spend time and I didn't know because I hadn't asked.

This is part of me making amends for the times I didn't connect with them in my depression. I love and treasure this time with them. What could you do with DS6a or b? My DD7 loves to read those Don't Let Penguin Drive the Bus books to me. They are so funny! Lots of other things, too. I bet your kids do amazing stuff, too, and it would be really healing to you to spend time with someone dear to you who treasures time with you instead of acts like it's some imposition.

Jayne, what's your plan today? If you're doing Plan A, does that involve you isolating yourself to your room for fear of disturbing him with your presence? What about planning some family RC time instead?

Hmm. How about changing directions, for the whole family? My first thought is that your H deserves a ton of kisses and hugs for picking up the slack for you this week. And IMO it doesn't matter if he sat while they argued. I think kids learn a lot by working those things out themselves.

What can you bring him that he likes, that shows how much you appreciate how he takes over when you need him? Something that means something to him, and shows that you know him well enough to know what he would like (reminding him how close you are to him), and shows him your thanks (reminding him that you're a great wife to have around, one who gives him strokes).

After that, be creative. Shake up your lifestyle, your patterns. Make your life together more fun, something for him to look forward to when he gets off work. Find ways that you can get more pleasure out of the family, but also find ways that HE can. Use them 50/50, so that when he thinks of y'all's time together, he realizes that you are fair, that you make efforts to do things for him, and that they are good times. Instead of times where you need to be separated cos you can't deal with each other.

I'm not saying you don't have a valid gripe. I see that you need strokes. It's just that you might have to be the one to get things started to enable it.

I agree with Cats post. Try and make your new home a little haven. Quit trying to get the kids to stop fighting, give them 15 minutes to fight and that is all, after that if they disregard the fight time period, put them in thier rooms.

You want a quiet orderly calm home if you can get one. Do you like drama and disruptions in your home life? Perhaps it is what you are used to so you make your home life drama filled and disruptive and your husband must then escape to the computer? I am just guessing here.

Who wants more quiet, you or your husband?
Who wants to get involved with the kids more you or him?
Who needs more kissing and touching, you or him?

Everyone should be able to get thier needs filled in your family. I would take a piece of paper and write down how much time you all have in the evenings and figure out who has needs and how to fill them each evening. This is fun in that some evenings, like say Wednesday night, you could get 2/3 of an hour of nothing but quiet touching from your husband. Maybe Thursday night he needs 1 hour computer time. Kids need story time on Friday night.

You can schedule the need filling times out so everyone is happy. If you all focus on filling each others needs and asking for your needs to be filled, you wont have time to fight. Fighting is a sign that needs are being neglected.

Let me add something. You as a family learning to write down your needs and fill your and others needs is more important than any job, any home, any lifestyle. Anything.

It is the key to happiness.

Sit down at the table with the entire family. Everyone write down how they want the evenings to be like and what they want to include when the family is together for those 4-5 hours a night.

The kids needs might include:

15 minutes a night to fight with no one stopping them (15 min limit only) Dinner, Snacks, 2 hour of TV, reading story time, homework time, bath time, cuddle time.

You might need:

Dinner, shopping time, computer time, fun, 1/2 hour cuddle time, help with cooking or dishes, 1/2 hour talking time (limited to that), bath time, kiss and hug time, make love time two or three times a week.

Your husband might need:

Quiet time (1 hour when he first gets home, this really makes a man feel respected and loved I discovered), shower time, good dinner eating time, computer time, chore time, fun, TV time, cuddle time, sex time.

After writing up these needs, which you can post on a wall as a reminder, write some feeling words to describe how the home environment in your home feels like now.

It could be Busy, noisy, chaotic, demanding, rushed, dark, stressful, tired, not enough time, angry, laughing, fighting, frantic, negative, happy, frowning, loud, teeth grinding, farting, etc.

Then everybody write GOAL words for how you want your HOME ENVIRONMENT to be:

Quiet, happy, laughing, "fake" fighting, TV, music, eating, hugging, smiling, candles, touching, sometimes naked, calm, relaxed, low lighting, fireplace on, cuddling, nurturing, fulfilling, respecting, etc.

Each one of you in the family has a right and a responsibility to determine what home environment he or she wants and to make that happen. Our home environment is one we can control to be all that we want it to be. Those 4 or 5 hours after work on weekdays and during the weekends, are precious hours we can fill our own needs and each others needs in a family.

If you take this very proactive step and your family is busy for a week determining and working on all of this, and you Jayne (you are smart) can take a lead in carrying out this exploration and determination process, and focus on making your family life as fun and happy as possible then you wont be fighting about it.

You wont have energy or the needs to fight since you will all be slowly learning what each member of the family needs and wants and not only will they all get what they need but your family environment will be the way you want it to be also and each family member will be respected and loved and thier needs respected and honored also. You all can help each other with this process.

The next step is for a routine, every week, where you will want to update the progress of filling the needs and the home environment, you can set the family down at the table and do updates in writing every week, like every Friday night for 1/2 hour, to see if the family is on track and if everyone is happy. And if something needs to be changed. If there is a problem that needs solving you may bring up ONE PROBLEM A WEEK to the table to solve it. Everyone is welcome to input thier solutions. Only one problem a week is allowed since this weekly meeting should be largely positively focused.

These weekly strategy meetings, as a routine in your family, will lead to beautiful and open communication and will solve many if not all your issues. They will also teach the kids open and honest, loving and respectful.... communication techniques.

The kids will use that type of communication in thier own families years from now. Over time, these weekly meetings can gently expose problems that need working out one by one. But for now you should focus on getting this way of communication IN PLACE as a weekly routine and then it can become a FORUM for communicating, telling each other how happy you are, problemsolving, laughing, and making your lives as pleasant and fun as possible!

Jayne, it just hit me,

IF YOU HAVE THE WEEKLY SUMMIT AT THE KITCHEN TABLE

AND

IF YOU START WRITING THINGS DOWN

Then

THERE IS NO REASON TO DISCUSS PROBLEMS OR COMPLAIN OUTSIDE THE WEEKLY SUMMIT! WOW! IT IS TRUE!

WHEN YOU HAVE AN ARENA, A PROBLEM SOLVING, SOLUTION ORIENTED, LOVING SPACE ONCE A WEEK TO DISCUSS THINGS, THEN IT GIVES YOU AN OUTLET SO THINGS DONT NEED TO BE BROUGHT UP AT OTHER TIMES THEREFORE DISTRACTING FROM THE HOME ENVIRONMENT YOU WANT TO HAVE.

And no one in the family has to expect fights, arguements, and shutting each other out, or rejections since all of that is taken care of one by one in the weekly summits. For example if we did this, instead of asking my husband to take off his shoes before walking on our carpeting, I could wait until Friday night and then bring it up in the summit. It would make the complaints and stressful arguements DISSAPEAR until the weekly summit could calmly deal with it.

The weekly summit,

You could have music and low lighting to calm the meeting,, and treats afterwards as everyone gives a final group hug after each summitt. I can see your entire family giving the hi five sign at the great work they all did after each WEEKLY SUMMIT.

Indeed, if you take on this weekly routine, your lives will change. They will end up being wonderful. You will learn that no arguing problemsolving or fighting (except for play fighting) is allowed outside the WEEKLY SUMMIT. Do you know why?

BECAUSE THE WEEKLY SUMMIT WILL TAKE CARE OF ALL THAT, THERE IS NO NEED TO ARGUE FIGHT OR WORK THINGS OUT OUTSIDE THE SUMMITT!

Also, I can almost picture how well this would work in your family:

Your husband is on the computer ignoring you Monday night. You start feeling rejected as the kids are fighting, instead of yelling or distracting your husband or doing anything negative to get his attention, you run to your SUMMIT NOTEBOOK and write the problem down and how you feel about it. This is one you may want to bring up during the Friday weekly Summit. Then during the week you can think of how to bring this up and what you need to change. Friday the problem may not seem so great or your can bring it up and find a solution as a group. But writing down how rejected you feel you can also be proactive THAT NIGHT to get your needs filled. At bedtime, knowing you want to be closer to your husband, you can reach out to him and cuddle him and even get some lovemaking going if you want. Because you stopped yourself from arguing, fighting, creating a drama or disturbance all to get your husband's attention since you want to be closer to him, and instead wrote down your needs to save this issue for the WEEKLY SUMMIT, it is OFF your mind, you have CALMED down, and later that evening,, you can ASK for what you need and RECIEVE THAT !!!!!!

Sorry my mind keeps thinking up more:

Here are the tools you need for these weekly summit meetings with the family.

1. A large WEEKLY SUMMIT three ring binder or spiral binder with at least 200 blank pages. Title it FAMILY SUMMIT OR WEEKLY SUMMIT or FRIDAY NIGHT MEETING.

2. Four smaller binders,, spiral with pens attached. Two cute ones for the kids. These should have everyones names on them like JAYNE, etc, etc, etc. One name on each one. These are the notebooks that everyone can record things in to bring up at the weekly summits.

3. A calendar. Mark off each date and time for the WEEKLY MEETINGS. Hang this up in a prominent place. You guys deserve a weekly meeting...every family does. Even coaches on a football team have weekly meetings. To perfect the team and work out any conflicts or bugs and to learn to become a good healthy team working with each other and not against each other.

4. Large butcher paper and markers for issues that need creative problemsolving input. These occasionally could be brought out and used to illustrate points, give everyone a marker or crayon to illustrate what they mean or what they would like to see happen or draw pictures of thier family, etc. If you want something in the yard, this could be designed on the butcher paper. The kids could draw out a play area they would like in the yard. Then the meetings could determine how to get that done. This paper could also be used in many other ways including as a vehical to get feelings out in the open. "What color are you feeling today"...... comes to mind. It is a good fun icebreaker for any meeting also. People end up laughing etc.

" At bedtime, knowing you want to be closer to your husband, you can reach out to him and cuddle him and even get some lovemaking going if you want."

Stella, that's really nice that you have a respectful husband who would turn the TV off long enough to look at you. I am so happy for you. I wish that for jayne, but right now, they are in a rut. If Jayne did this, her H would start yelling at her, telling her how it's her fault that he's angry, because WHY THE HECK CAN'T SHE EVER JUST LEAVE HIM ALONE!!!

I understand. This process wont happen overnight. Just like the damage in the stock market, it wont recover onvernight.

1. Jayne and her husband have issues that have built up now into him wanting time alone and she needing him to cuddle. They are in bad habits in their marriage. Neither her nor her husband has been getting thier needs filled consistantly for a very long time. That needs to change.

2. The weekly meetings are to help EVERYONE in the family get thier needs filled.

3. The weekly meetings are to help everyone FILL NEEDS better during the weeks ahead, they will be rudimentary at first and all about what the needs are, what the feelings are, etc.

In that instance, ears, perhaps if the husband had more time alone, more quiet time, more time without demands, in the evenings, then he would gradually, over weeks and weeks of change and weekly meetings, and changes in her behavior also, he might WANT TO BE more responsive to her. It is a process and it involves both of them breaking thier own old dysfunctional family habits and bad communication habits and breaking the bad home environment. It can happen, it can get better,, much better!

"Stella, that's really nice that you have a respectful husband who would turn the TV off long enough to look at you. "

Hey I did not say I have this or that it is easy. But when I want him alone I can ask he turn off the TV and we can cuddle. I ask respectfully and it took years to learn how to do that instead of walking away feeling rejected and in disgust as I did at first.

I had to break my old habits of not being able to ask for what I need and want.

I had to form new ways of respectfully asking for what I need and want.

I had to realize those things I want and need.

I had to articulate them to my husband in a positive way.

I had to eliminate ALL my LB behavior so my husband liked me and was not defensive with me and that was enough to have him resume the caring about what I need and want.

Sorry, Stella! THis is great advice. Jayne does have a great guy, I forget, she does post about the cool stuff he does, too. Like the sparklers for her birthday, that was so cool!

I like your suggestions, but I was not letting go of the response. I was jumping to a conclusion. Because I was afraid that she'd be disappointed. But we are new everyday. I do that at home, too, think that H is going to react the way he did last time, and then am totally surprised to see that today is a new day and brings new great things!

Jayne, I took my advice. H is doing early voting, so DD7 and I are painting our nails I'm feeling better already.

Ears and Jayne, we all must risk possible dissapointment in order to change and start new family routines that will promote healthy and fun communication and need filling.


And like I say it could take until the stock market recovers to budge the old habits in our marriages and change things for the better. But if there is a weekly vehical for change that is implimented in our marriages and families, then everyone has a voice in it and things can be brought up easily and respectfully.

It will take time to learn to do this, to actually do it, and to reasses how it is working and what changes are still needed. The bad communication and LB habits are not formed overnight. They cannot be undone overnight either. But they can be gradually eradicated and good habits put in thier place.

Good communication habits
Good LB elimination
Good need meeting behavior
Good respect for other family members
Good home environment.

wow, what a lot of posts! Thanks y'all, I really really appreciate all the input.

I've read through quickly so I can respond, then I'll go back and read again. The second time will be more of the stuff about what I can do. For now let me just respond to some of the points, taking the posts two at a time (for cut-and-paste convenience):


That wasn't a DJ, that's actually what H has said. I've asked him before, how many times I could bring something up before he considers it nagging. He said once.


I just don't know, I'm not doing a good job at all of following His plan.


This is a good idea. I try to do this also sometimes. Yesterday I spent most of the day with 6b cus school was out and he didn't want to go to the childcare place. Things went well until the incident at dinner.


My kids love that book too!


He hates physical touch. That would be a huge LB.


But they run the risk of breaking something... an object, their brother, themself...


Like what? I can't for the life of me think of anything he'd be enthusiastic about. I've suggested things.

That was what I'd hoped to do. I'm failing miserably.


Nope, I don't want the drama, I'm the one hoping and wishing we could have a calm friendly meal together, etc. The drama happens even if I'm not in the room.


He seems more tolerant of the yelling than me.


I prolly want to be more involved than he does. He IS involved, but mostly when I can't do something and he steps in. I'm the one who actually wants to read to the kids, check their homework, etc. He does it if necessary.


ME. Absofrigginlutely.


I've proposed all sorts of plans, I can't get him to follow through on anything. I did manage to get him to do a budget for a few weeks. But he was never willing to complete the LBQ or ENQ, or any other plan or book. He hates talking. Any discussion is an LB.


H wouldn't agree, and the kids are 6.


They couldn't write all that, and they don't have a grasp of how long 15 minutes vs an hour is, or how long it is until bedtime. I inserted just an estimate of the times you list, and they add up to 4 hours. If we get home at 6 they'd be up until 10.


Of these, he might want the quiet time, the good dinner eating time, the computer time, the chore time, and the sex time sometimes.

The rest of what you describe sounds wonderful, what I always envisioned it would be like to have a family. IRL it doesn't work out so rosy. I love plans, definite steps etc. That's why I love your advice. But getting anyone else to follow these steps is a Sisyphean task.

!?! He hates physical touch? All physical touch? Like you guys don't act like a couple? That worries me.

I actually just meant whatever floats his boat. But if he doesn't let you touch him...yikes!

Maybe it's because I'm 50 and my D is 18 and off to college, that I've got a different perspective. But honestly? You've got to let kids be kids. They learn from roughhousing and breaking things and suffering consequences. Protecting them from all that only teaches them to be prima donnas. Nothing at you personally, just my impression of kids today. We are doing them NO justice by coddling them. When I grew up I walked home every single day. Even when it flooded and the water was up to my knees, my mom walked to school to walk me home; she didn't pick me up in a car so I wouldn't get wet; today, I see dozens and dozens of cars of mothers waiting in line for an hour or two, picking up their kids so they don't have to ride the horrible buses. Oh my! Not a bus!

I say this just to make sure you aren't becoming the kind of mother who protects her kids from themselves. Because they NEED that experience to learn how to deal with life. Breaking something...it's just an object, even just an arm...they're still alive, but they've learned a valuable lesson. Would you rather they learn the lesson as a first grader or a college student, away from you?

Our MC tried something similar years ago. If he would agree to just 15 MINUTES A WEEK of talking to me about ANYTHING SERIOUS, then I was to go the rest of the week without bringing up anything.

*15 MINUTES A WEEK*. How far from the MB 15 HOURS A WEEK.

He actually did it ONE WEEK. And I think it was 5 minutes, not 15, before he said he wouldn't talk any more.


Yep.

Very true.

But the weekend meetings won't fly with H, I've tried such things.

He promised last night that he'd bring up us talking today. He hasn't yet. I don't think he will. He's said things like that before, as per the MC's instructions: if he doesn't want to talk at a certain time then he needs to give me a time when he is willing, and it was supposed to be within 48 hours. Well that's long gone, but even when we were in MC he wouldn't do that. And even when he would agree to setting a date to talk, he would usually not follow through.

I think twice maybe he has. And I made sure to give him admiration and appreciation for it.


This could be true. I just need to know what to do to meet his needs.


I need to learn how to not walk away feeling rejected and disgusted. You describe it perfectly.


These are prolly what I need to do most. I seem to fail at every attempt though.

But what if there won't be a weekly meeting?

I WISH THERE WAS INFIDELITY. THEN WE'D AT LEAST HAVE SOMETHING TO ADDRESS, AND CLEAR STEPS TO TAKE.