Hey LC,

Docp is probably the ONLY BS in the entire world who reacted like he did...... without the prolonged nasty lashing out. Come to think about it, so did I, but only after D-Day #1, and only because I was doing a happy dance because my then-WH was giving me the "out" I had been seeking for decades.

After D-day #2 & #3, I said words I didn't even know I knew. I threw things, I took him off our joint bank account, I nearly drove my car into a bridge abutment.

WH took it, even though it escalated to my being suicidal after #3. (Then he took me to the doctor and made an appt. for himself.)

Docp must have had some sort of venting outlet somehow, somewhere. OR he is one truly amazing person.

Have you guys ever discussed how/if his reaction might have been different had you and FOM had gone from an EA to a PA, even if just once?

I can't imagine what I would have done had my WH met OW and acted out their phone/email sentiments physically.

L4, like LC admitted, I don't know your BH's pain level, but by reading here on MB I see the same patterns of intense anger after D-Day that almost always subsides with time. How long will differ for each BS.

Like Mark and all have said, just take it for now. When it gets to be too much, journal like LC said but do NOT lash back.

Vent here, too. We'll all be here for you.

Still praying for you,
Ace

L4,

You are getting some great advice here and from some of the best. I thought I would chime-in to add my own experience, as a BH, and let you know that I reacted very similar to your H. In a short time, however, I came to realize that our M was worth fighting for and I found this site. While no one can predict the future, I can remind you that there is hope.

You are getting plenty of responses to your thread. In fact, I have not seen so much activity on one thread in the Recovery section in quite some time. Do you know why? What you are doing is rare. It takes a special kind of person to admit their mistakes, take responsibility for their actions, and implement a plan to make things right. To quote Randy Pausch, "There are three parts of a true apology: 1) I am sorry; 2) It was my fault; 3) How do I make it better?"


Right back at ya. Hang tough - you are walking the right path.

- Sh0cked

PS - If you need some extra inspiration, see Randy Pausch's "last lecture" here.

Maybe I didn't make myself as clear as I should have. I don't think you need to "just take it" from him when he lashes out. Simply do not lash out in return. Do not make it about his behavior rather than the pain of the affair. That would only invalidate his pain which will prolong it and make it more intense.

You can have boundaries regarding protecting yourself from verbal abuse. Enforcement of those boundaries could include saying (respectfully, even in face of his disrespect) that you cannot continue the conversation with the direction it is taking. Then attempt to change the subject (Hey, what do you want for dinner?) or leave the room. Do this calmly and with control over your own emotions. Save the melt down that is sure to come until you are alone or on here to vent. Just don't return nastiness for nastiness. The argument ends when one of you does not say the next thing to come into your mind.

And any time you say "I'm sorry" be sure it is not followed by the word "but..." When he expresses his pain, say "I'm sorry..." Never say "I'm sorry, but if you had..." It will only make it worse in the long run.

But you don't have to just stand there and let him beat you up, physically or verbally. Just don't defend yourself by swinging back. If he becomes even more abusive, don't storm out of the house and slam the door, but do go someplace for a while (tell him exactly where you are going and go nowhere else - need to begin rebuilding trust as well) and give him time to cool off (and let yourself cool down as well.)

If when he rants you rant back, you'll forever be stuck in a cycle of he said/she said and nothing constructive will come about until that cycle gets broken.

Mark

In an earlier post, Mark said:


I need to clarify what I meant by "just take it for now", too.

Within reason is different for most but you'll know if it becomes close to physical abuse.

Don't take physical abuse. Get out like Mark said.

But if he is saying things out of anger that are not true, suck it up for the moment and do not try to refute him. He will most likely realize he needs to apologize later. He'll need to do that on his own. Well, at least that's how it worked for us. I tried to inflict as much verbal pain on my WH as I could. But he let me vent and it subsided within time. (Then I felt horrible and apologized.)

ETA Mark's suggestions will work, too.

Still praying for you.

Ace

Ace and Mark,

I think we are all trying to say the same thing, but are saying it differently.

I agree she needs to listen to him vent, but there has to be a point she needs to be able to walk away for a break or whatever.

Ace,

I will answer your questions in a bit. I am going to start a thread vs jacking this one. It's going to be a loooong story.

LC

Just to clarify a few things that may have become confused during the course of this thread...

Sorry to disappoint you, Ace, but the affair was a physical one, one encounter and therefore was a PA. We live two timezones apart and developed the A online and through phone conversations. Before then we had been friends through work for several years. It was about 2+ months into it when we were in the same town that we made it physical. It was a month after that that the two of us ended it. One month further along that the OMW's learned of the PA and the three of us agreed no contact was the only way. The affair did not happen while my H and I were in counseling. The PA happened from February - May. My BH and I started counseling the last week of August. So to clarify the timeline: I had been asking for counseling since January '06. The A happened Feb '08 - May '08. I have been in personal counseling since April '08. I revealed the A to my therapist the end of June after I had an anxiety attack. The OM and I went no contact a few days later. My BH and I started couples counseling (a different therapist) the end of August. Our couples therapist learned of the A in late September. I confessed the A October 26.

Our MC never encouraged me to keep it secret. At the time, because my H was traveling a lot, he said I could do what I wanted for now, but that the A would have to be revealed in order to truly move forward. And the sooner the better. When I called the MC last week and said that I was going to do it (thanks to everyone's encouragement here), he endorsed the move.

Regardling the children, we'll talk with them tonight and let them know that we're are working on some grown-up things that might mean one of us has to be away from the house for short periods of time but that we will return home. Of course we'll remind them how much we love them.

Thank you very much for your input on the verbal abuse. Our MC said yesterday (the session that I attended alone) that that needs to stop soon. My H has every right to be angry and to yell, but the time frame for hurling the kind of things he's been throwing is limited if we are to have any kind of positive relationship down the road. He stated that in order for our M to make it, my H will have to eventually do two things: Stop the verbal abuse (which has been going on for years, just not at this level) and he will have to clearly look at his roles in the marriage problems that existed before and since the A. He said that in order for our M to have a chance, I will have to forever accept responsibility for the A, I can never blame my H for my having the A, and I too, have to look at my roles in the marriage problems that existed before and after the betrayal. Throughout everything though, we have to keep the children's BEST interests in mind among all of this. The MC also warned me that I will become a target for some and how I cope with the attacks is up to me. I can't control what others will think of me, I can only control my feelings and actions. And only I know the reality of what happened and what is happening now.

I know my H has told his mother and his best friend -- who is also a good friend of mine. The best friend's wife can be a gossip so it's possible my infidelity is now well known throughout our former hometown. But I know I can't worry about that -- that's a consequence of my actions that I knew would result from my confession. I hope my H will soon also seek guidence from our pastor, our MC, this site, or other sources that have lived this horrible experience or are professionally trained in how to work through it.

What I have to do now is exactly what Mark1952 suggested and that's work on myself utilizing MB. I am very familiar with the Basic Concepts, Love Busters, and filled out an EN form quite a while ago. I need to keep practicing the truths found on this website, read the books, continue to be transparant to my H, show my genuine remorse for that I did, and work like crazy. Right now he wants nothing to do with getting help from anyone or anything else. Maybe we'll come out of this together, maybe we won't. Right now the only thing that is certain is that time is needed and I have to do what I can do.

Hi L4,


Not sure what I may have said to indicate I thought it was only an EA...maybe speaking from LC's perspective that their EA stopped short of intercourse so it too technically was a PA.

Don't worry about disappointing me, L4. Actually I did get a little anxious for you when he kicked you out and you weren't able to update us for a few days, but you did NOT disappoint me or anyone else here.

Remember, I said you are one courageous woman. I will repeat it again. YOU ARE ONE COURAGEOUS WOMAN. Even if you disappointed me (which you didn't) it really doesn't matter.

What matters is you, your H, your children and your family's recovery. We're all here to help you.

(But now I see that LC posted about why her BH was so calm so I'll check back with ya later. !)

Ace

You're getting such good advice, I dont' really have anything to add. I just wanted to underscore that you are, indeed, one brave woman. AND, best of all, you are now living a life of integrity, and you have paid a dear price for it. Hold your head up high.

L4, I see you 've been getting some good advice here. I want to applaud you for standing up with integrity and telling your H the truth. I also think your MC is on the right track.

Please keep posting and venting to us and not your H. After a week or two it should be clear if he is going to become more abusive or start to do the hard work of recovery. We are here for you and rooting for you.

LC, I don't know what kind of verbal abuse you suffered b4 the PA. I can only offer experience from my own sitch. I never abused my wife, verbally or physically. But after I found out about her cheating, I called her every name in the book. I mean names you probably never heard.

I accused her of every immoral sexual act with every man including the freaking paperboy! Was this logical? NO! But the pain is soooo intense that you lash out to hurt the one who hurt you.

This lasted until she was honest with me. Then I calmed down and realised I wanted my marriage. If I wanted my marriage, how could I keep talking about my wife peeling off her panties and calling her a cheap wh0re? Logically, I couldn't. If I thought those things we were done.

The pain ebbed. I realized I wanted to keep my marriage. You can't keep your marriage if you continue to verbally abuse your wife. Otherwise you have to justify why you stay married to someone who you consider less than human.

I must be an anamoly. When I confronted my wife about her first affair, I didn't yell, scream, verbally abuse her or anything like that. She said ILYBNILWY, and I calmly told her to pack 3 days worth of clothes and leave my house. She broke down crying and vomiting and begging for another chance. I didn't have the benefit of MB advice, but I laid out a bunch of criteria for recovery.

As you can see from my sig, she never really committed to recovery. She never read the books I got (or at least never wanted to talk about them), resisted everything from MB that I tried to show her, and only went to counseling because she had to. After 15 months of withholding the truth from me, she decided to blame me for our lack of recovery so she could justify her deployment boyfriend. She just lacked the courage to really address the affair like a mature adult.

Maybe I should have yelled at her and called her names.

Hey L4,

How's it going?

Ace

Well... I've been better.

I went back home yesterday. He gave me his wedding ring but also told me he loves me. He is soooo hurt. He started running through all the men in our lives (including my best friend's husband) asking if I've slept with them. He pulled up a suspicious encounter from 16+ years ago (2.5 years before we were married) and asked me if anything was going on there. I instinctively said no (WHY?!) but revealed it's truthfulness today -- that yes I did have a brief fling with that man. He's so angry with me. So angry. As he should be.

I know he's crying, hurt, angry, shaking, and feels zero trust for me now. Two days ago he said he thinks he wants to stay married, then last night he started throwing hurtful things my way that scared me again. I told him I will answer any questions about the A and anything having to do with us, but that I don't deserve what he's saying about my future behaviour in very derogatory terms. I left the room. He came and got me and apologized for what he said. Then we continued the discussion more appropriately. One moment he'll talk to me about my "next relationship" as if we're getting divorced, then later he'll talk about what he needs from me for us to move on, as if he wants to stay with me. I'm not pressing him either way. He said he hasn't contacted a lawyer, and I haven't either. He doesn't trust that I haven't (that's warranted), but I haven't.

We did have a moment last night when I finally lost it. I just broke down sobbing, seeing him hurting like that. I've been trying to be strong through this for him, so he can lean on me, but I just lost it last night. He came to me and held me as I told him over and over that I'm sorry.

My father called him shortly afterward and told my H that he is still part of the family and that whatever he needs, he can ask my parents for help. I also called my H's mom last night and she was amazing. She admitted to me that she also once made a mistake and that she loves me and forgives me. She also begged me to fight for this marriage.

I'm at a coffee shop now, agreeing that I will not be home during the day as my H works from there.

He contacted the OMW a few days ago and they have been corresponding. The OM and his wife are 4 months ahead of us in dealing with the betrayal. I haven't seen any of the emails they've exchanged and I don't know if I care too. (I'm sure the content about me is not too favorable.) I'm sure the OMW is reeling having to relive the affair again after having processed through it these many months. But she is being very generous with my H and if they can help each other, then that's good. I've been wanting to write her a letter expressing my sincerest apologies since she learned about the A. But I have never sent what I've written out of respect for her -- trying to stay completely out of her life. My H says that the OMW might appreciate hearing my regrets, but I'm not sure about that.

He said he hates that he has to drag things out of me. I said I don't know what he wants to know and what he doesn't want to know. There were two times last night I was saying something when he interupted and said, "I don't want to know," so I'm having troubles with what to share and not. I told him he has to ask me what he wants to know.

I bought a couple of Dr. Harley's books and have printed numerous articles from here. I want them available for me and in case he ever changes his mind and wants to get help. I know he had a brief conversation with our pastor that he had to censor as our kids were in the room.

My husband asked me if I love him. Two weeks ago when he asked me the same thing I answered him truthfully -- no. And as I stated in my original post, I don't believe I do. I mean, how do you betray someone you love like I did? There's no way I can love him if I'm capable of doing that. I've turned down other advances in the past because I was happily married. I didn't this one because I wasn't happily married. And if I wasn't, I must not be in love, right? But then I've been given clearance from him to walk away (just like you, Ace) and I haven't done that. So maybe I do love him?

He said if we are to stay together I have to change my ways of how I interact with me. I told him I believe I interact with men as I do women, but then maybe I do flirt more. He's never mentioned this to me before. I said if we stay together we must go back to counseling because we both obviously need changes from each other.

Anyway... We're still fresh into this so I'm still in a daze. Don't know exactly what to do or say or where we'll be. I don't regret telling and trust all of you that this will get better. The hole is as deep as it gets now so I'm hoping soon someone will throw me a rope. Or at least some water until the rope arrives. It will come, right?

Looking4,

Believe it or not you are making progress. You are back home and talking. I am really glad to read he did get himself in check and proud of you for the way you handled the situation. Good for you. I know it's rough, you are doing what you need to do. I don't see anything wrong with breaking down, sometimes it's inevitable. I sure did many times. I also spent quite a bit of time crying behind a closed door. Keep being supportive to your H and keep learning about MB.


Why not write something, show it to your H and ask him to send it for you? I apologized to my FOM's DH and she did appreciate it.

LC

Wow, L4, you are doing great. You are trying to be there for him and have established personal boundaries. It is important to remember that it is actions, not words, which are important now.

And so begins the rollercoaster of recovery. This is to be expected.

Excellent job! Enforcing boundaries.

Many BS would kill for this. It shows your sincerity and it also shows he still cares about you.

You are truly blessed to have this kind of support.

This makes me very nervous – many an RA (revenge affair) started this way. It is you, not her, that should try and meet his ENs.

L4, it sounds like a seed is there. I really believe with 15 hours per week and other MB concepts, love can blossom. You obviously care as does he.

In all, this looks very promising. It may not feel like it now but I believe there is plenty of potential. Who knows – as it is in my case, this may turn out to be the best (and worst) thing for your marriage.

- Shocked

Is this your second affair?!

look4

What's the deal with 16 years ago?

Sure, but MUCH MORE IMPORTANT than his anger is the fact that you were truthful with him, despite the fact that you knew the truth would hurt him. Painful honesty is something a person can cope with. A person can not cope with lies because they never know where things stand. Their mind makes them crazy with wondering. They doubt people around them, and they doubt themselves because obviously they're a poor judgment of character and truth. Your coming clean was a HUGE gift for him and a very positive thing for you to do.

His world is on end. He can't think straight. He doesn't know what he wants except he wants all this to not be true. That's normal and if he weren't waffling I'd be concerned. Just give him time (don't you hate that? everything takes so darned much time!).

Some BS *never* get to hear their WS say they're sorry. Don't worry about breaking down crying in front of your BH. The things to avoid are angry outbursts, disrespectful judgments, independent behavior, and the other LBs. I don't recall teary remorse in that list


Be very careful of this. It's fine for her to corroborate what you say, and for her to keep an eye on OM just as your WH is surely keeping an eye on you... but they don't need to be turning to one another for relief in their emotional pain. I don't know how you could tell him this, though. The last thing in the world he'll want to hear is advice from you on how to avoid an affair.

Just keep an eye on it and keep posting here about it, and if our collective radar goes off we'll come up with something brilliant. We usually do.

Have you ever driven by an accident, or road kill, and your mind had an unreasonable desire to see how bad it was, but you knew if you looked you'd be sick? Multiply that by... a LOT. Your BH's imagination and fear are running wild. He wants to hear the truth, and he needs to. Hearing it brings it out in the open, makes it not taboo, makes it lose its power. But it's very hard to hear. Just go with the flow. Answer his questions and when he asks you to stop, stop. Don't say "But you just ASKED me (you moron)!" That would be counter-productive

One thing that might help is, when he asks you a question and you think the answer might be particularly upsetting, is to pause and ask him "Are you sure you want to hear this?" He may decide that no, he doesn't need those details. Or he may decide he does - but he'll be braced for the news.

Remember, your willingness to be honest despite your shame and embarrassment, and despite knowing it will hurt, is a very very big gift. Honesty and openness is the foundation of a strong marriage, and because you are able to be completely honest with him I think you have a strong chance for a great recovery.

Please explain this to him. He's probably thinking he can never be good enough, handsome enough, witty enough, tall enough, rich enough... and on and on and on. When he knows that your "I dn't love you" is a logical conclusion drawn from "If I treated you like that, how could I love you?" then he will feel much better. The focus becomes your remorse (good) rather than his imagined inadequacies.

Hmm... this might just be his pain talking or there might be something to it. I will say that in a marriage with proper boundaries, the wife does not EVER say or do anything that she wouldn't do in front of her husband. Most here would agree that the wife should never spend any time alone with another man - not even a business lunch or an appointment with the interior designer. First of all, if there are always three people, you'll never start down that slippery slope. Secondly, people will never have reason to talk and your spouse will never have reason to doubt or fear.

Can't you see it? You're already weaving your own rope. And it's a good, strong, reliable one. You just need practice.

L4,

Men have very long memories for suspected infidelity, I mentioned to my wife the other day about the time a preacher put his hands on her shoulder, entirely innocently by the way. She had no recollection of that event, but I could remember the sermon he gave that day in 1985. IMHO men, at least myself, make a mental catalog of potential threats to their mates.

Oh and the time when I was 15 and my 15 year old girl friend cheated on me with a 23 year old guy, only have his first name, but am still working on it. Not really but still a strong memory.

This might explain your H long list of suspects.

God Bless
NJ

Summer of 1992... My boyfriend (future H) and I were living together at the time. I had a fling. It was nothing about love. In fact, today I still have no idea why I did it. I was in a deep funk at the time, working two waitress jobs, not sure what I wanted... It was a dark time and that's pretty much all I remember about that era of my life. My future H suspected something and said he didn't like the guy and could tell something was up, but I was so into myself and my darkness, I don't know that I cared what anyone thought. The other guy (not married) and I were sexually togther a few times -- maybe 4 or 5. I had no emotional connection to him. I woke up one day, realized I loved my boyfriend with all my heart and wanted to be with him forever. I cut the other guy off -- not answering the phone (the days before caller ID) and not calling him. I internally committed completely to my boyfriend and made other affirmations to fix my life and that was that. As much as I wanted to tell, I knew he'd leave me forever. And I didn't want that. So I didn't tell him. I never told anyone, not even my closest friends until this past February when I told the OM about it (the OM from earlier this year that I've been totally focusing on here). Turns out my H emailed the OM from and asked him if he knew of any other infidelities in my life. (My H assumed correctly that we would share that info with each other since we were both openly cheaters with each other anyway.) The OM said I admitted to him of having a brief encounter before we were married. My H asked me if I had and I revealed. That's the whole, messed up story of that.

Bet that changes your opinion of me now.

My H said tonight he feels more horribly about the cheating I did 16 years ago before we were married. He said if he had of known then, he would have never married me. So he says his last 16 years -- the prime of his life -- have been wasted. I didn't try too hard, but made a weak attempt to remind him that we have had many great times up until recently, but he doesn't care. He says now that he thinks hard, he doesn't think that I ever really loved him. And that I only care enough to suit my needs. (This is SO untrue.) We have been rocky for a few years and really rocky this last year or so, but up until late August, he showed little interest in fixing us. Now that he knows of my lies, he's saying it was all me putting nothing into us.

My head is a blur. Last night he seemed at least still on the fence about our future. Tonight... He won't even look at me. He doesn't know who I am and apparently never did. I said I'm the one who loved you and who wanted to be with you forever. He says because of me, he's wasted his life.

I can't stop crying. I don't know what to do. I've always felt like I'm a good person. But the things he's bringing up now... Looking at it from his vantage point... Heck, even just from my vantage point I'm a cold-hearted, self-centered b**ch. I don't know if I'll be able to recover. Let alone if we can recover. Heck, at this point, I'll just pray for him to recover. It's the least I can hope for him.