Wow Stella you really got the story of our marriage down! It's very interesting to hear an outside person describe it from a neutral POV.

I don't think I've been a needy bottomless pit for quite some time now. I feel like my pit is rather shallow, that it wouldn't take much. I admit I used to be that way. Do you still see me as a bottomless pit?

And the thing about him wanting to have fun and I don't, I'm the one who suggests that we do *something* fun, *anything*, rent a movie, go to the movies, something that we can do in the little free time we have. He's the one who says "No, not tonight."

Some things are built in, just because we have kids. Like yesterday the scouts had an outing to a local ranch. So we spent half the day there as a family. Today we are carving pumpkins. So that stuff is some combination of FC and RC.

But he says no to anything that is just us or that would require some effort.

Does he do the same thing when he talks to other men? Coworkers? Family?

What can you do to phrase your conversations in such terms?

" I admit I used to be that way. Do you still see me as a bottomless pit?"

No, I see you as less "bottomless pit like" . But it does not matter how I see it, it is how your HUSBAND sees you. Maybe compared to his needs, your emotional needs are a deep endless unfillable bottomless pit.

He may not say this and he may not even realize that he feels this way fully...but if he is giving less emotionally to the marriage than he has in the past, it may be a sign that he may be pulling away into withdrawal......men want us to be happy. They do not like to see that we are unhappy because of some need they do not fill for us.

He sounds lazy or has lack of energy when it comes to outtings. Then why is RC one of his top needs? What kind of RC does he mean when he says he wants more RC?

Maybe like my husband, your husband is content to stay around the house and watch TV. I dont know if it is lack of energy or what that causes some men to be happy to be couch potatoes.

He only ever discusses "business". Either work-related issues or task-driven discussions.

He doesn't talk about how the Leafs disappointed yet again this year. He doesn't excitedly drool over the new iPhone. He doesn't get angry that the seller is backing out of paying for the carpet *after* he ripped the old carpet out. He doesn't get excited over our new house, our furniture we ordered, the beautiful view... the most he's said is, with a slight smile, that it was nice working from home, with that view.

He doesn't smile much. Have I done that to him?

He doesn't talk much to his family either.

I forgot this part:


I don't see this as a problem with how to phrase things. There's just no way to phrase anything having to do with emotions, dreams, etc. in a way he would be comfortable.

It seems to me the only solution is to limit the *topics* of discussion to the things he's comfortable with: task-driven discussions. I don't see any way to discuss hopes and dreams, hurts and joys, in that way.

Jayne, some hugs for you today (((Jayne))) Better days are ahead!

Yes, one inch deep is infinitely deeper than zero.


I'm not sure he ever was giving more emotionally to the marriage. Maybe years and years ago, when we first met and he was this young innocent kid and I didn't want to date cus he seemed too young. But we didn't date until five years after that.


Hmmm, the only thing I can think of is mtn biking. Everything else he seems to enjoy is more my thing than his: watching a movie, eating out, cooking a meal together, etc.

Thanks ears.

*hugs*

I guess better days are ahead one way or another if I eliminate my expectations. That sounds good, phrased like that; but the way it doesn't sound good is when I hear the SNL jingle, "Lowered Expectations".

How about calling it Living Life on Life's Terms?

Jayne, you've

• Eliminated LBs
• Met his ENs in a way oyu were enthusiastic about
• Made the thoughtful requests
• Attempted negotiation

Don't worry, hon. You called the Counseling Center, right? You're in good hands.

Yep I've called the counseling center.

Jayne, if you need to 'chat' Im available but I think your probably getting good advice from the others, so just offering. OK?

Thanks lil.

Right now it's dinner time and I've got several things I need to do. I'll be back later, especially if H goes to bed without talking.

In which case I'll certainly need to talk.

I have to go milk shortly but I'll check back on later.

I almost wish I didnt live on the other side of the planet, then I could ring you.

Well he did reluctantly offer to talk "for a couple minutes", right before he got into bed. He said something like, "I know we were supposed to talk, but it's real late so I guess we could talk a couple minutes unless you want to wait until tomorrow or something." I said something like, "If we do talk a couple minutes tonight, does that mean you're gonna think that's enough talking for the next 6 to 9 months?" He said, "Not if you don't want it to be." I said, "So that's a viable alternative to you?" None of this was said with animosity, I was very flat, unemotional, and he had a slight smile (which could mean he was amused or it could mean he was stressed).

So we talked. I said "I would like to find a way to provide a better environment for the kids, less yelling, less insulting... .... ... (those are pregnant pauses) more loving ... ... ... for the kids I mean." He said we (or maybe he said "you") need to not over-react. I asked for an example and he gave an incident where I got mad at 6b for breaking a piece off our shower door. That's the time when he ended up yelling and saying the same thing over and over, even "counting" the words on his fingers as he waved in my face. I said that I thought he over-reacted more than I did, mentioning his yelling and waving in my face. He said he wasn't talking about that, he thought I was too hard on 6b. I said fair enough, I shouldn't have been so hard on him. I said, so we should be less hard on them? He said in some ways. I said, I also think you shouldn't insult me in front of the kids. He agreed, and said I do some of that too, and I agreed.

I think that was it. (How long do y'all think that took? I'm just wondering, as a reality check from an outside observer.)

So, should I resist the temptation to think all is well now, and I don't have to call the Harleys after all?

Thanks hon.

I'll hafta check, we have a special plan that includes free calls to Canada. I wonder if that includes all the British colonies *poke*. I think when we were in NZ we could phone home to North America (US and CA) for free on my cell.

I'm back
Firstly if I was to have that conversation with Flick it would last about 10 mins so you might have got a resonable chat.
I would still call the Harleys, simply becuae I now feel that you need the ambulance at the top not the bottom of the cliff.

Secondly I can call the US for $5 for 2 hours, but I don't know about canada. I rang Ayane a few months back and that was fun. I wouldnt want to wake up your boys or H tho.

If you can get free calls that would be awesome.
Ayne tried to get skpe set up on my computer but it didnt work, this needs a bullet! I am seriously thinking of buying a new laptop.

Jayne, are you a book reader? I'd really recommend

• Love Busters by Harley. It explains the love busters, why folks do them and gives far better alternatives, like O&H, Thoughtful request, and negotiation
• The Dance of Anger explains the dynamic of complaining or asking without a plan to back it up.
• Boundaries in Marriage by Cloud and Townsend

I think last night your H needed to know the impact of his waving fingers in your face to the M. I think he deserved that amount of honesty from you. Because those things don't just go away. They create the anger that turns outward or inward.

The good side is that you DID talk, and you didn't walk away mad - either of you. In fact, you agreed on some future items. I think even a quick little talk like that is helpful, because it shows him that talking doesn't always end in stress or hopelessness. Maybe if you just worked on one of those a week for a couple months, he'd start to feel safer? Start to realize talking isn't torture, and might actually get him something HE wants. This time, it was to point out that you do things wrong, too. Which is fine. It was a very adult talk. Good stuff.

Yes, cat, I hear you, great progress from the mumbling! Progress, not perfection. I just said what I said because I catch myself doing that, too, "I want this for the KIDS". Still feeling stifled myself and felt so awful without really understanding why. Jayne, I should have asked for clarity. Did you feel good about your prorgess? Or still frustrated?