So true. It's easy to fall back on 'doing it for the kids'.

Oh, man, I'm making assumptions again! Sorry, jayne, that makes total sense that it would bother you for the kids' sake, too! What I meant is that I think it is bothering you for your sake, too. Did I get that right?

I totally hear you about it bothering you that the kids see all this stuff. So I have two other books

• Between Parent and Child by Hiam Ginott[sp] - This can be a fast read, and awesome. This book is like self-forgiveness, healthy thinking, and loving detachment in a nutshell. It's like reading LA's posts, calming just to read the words and to see that this stuff isn't for you to fix, but accept. Because once you accept the reality that has always been there, you feel calm, and it suddenly becomes clear what actions will reflect your integrity.
• His Needs, Her Needs for Parents - again, it's awesome to enter Dr. H's peaceful world and see how healthy people live and look at issues. It becomes clear that this is a life available to all of us.

Jayne, I spent a lot of time reading this weekend. I forgot how much I liked doing that. That going to a different world, and seeing how I am powerful to address my concerns. Thanks for sharing how much you did in making your home more livable. FlyLady talks a lot about this, about how organizing our homes, our stuff, removes the distraction. Our thinking becomes clear, and we become aware of other things we do that don't fit what we want for our lives. And our kids' lives. Like the yelling. I am proud of you!

Hi Jayne,

how are you today?

I feel good.

I'm stupid that way. A few minutes' conversation from H and I melt. :crosseyedcrazy:

I got email from the Harleys' coaching center saying that the times I mentioned don't work, and I am to phone them about other available times. I can't phone right now though, I'm at work. I feel so much better about things, I'm tempted to not follow up. Until the next crisis, which will of course occur on a Friday evening.

so...
follow up. Why wait until the next crisis...and the next...and the next.

But I am pleased your feeling better. it's kinda funny how they can fill up that bank so fast with so little huh?

Yes it is.

I can't figure out if I'm an idiot for falling for it, or just stupid for feeling so upset and panicky and thinking things were so bad, before. :crosseyedcrazy:

Was my thinking-things-were-bad an over-reaction? Or is my thinking-things-are-good naive?

Ack, don't ask me!!! LOL

Prolly both. I know that on a bad day I can think its not worth it because he didnt pay attention to me when i was talking, to thinking I will will love him forever because he paid me a complement, then when he act like he didnt like me kissing him, wanting to say stuff it, and then melting because he stroked my hair and called me beautiful.


This happened in a one hour period yesterday!

:crosseyedcrazy: :crosseyedcrazy:

I just remembered, I was thinking about you this morning while milking (and praying for ya ) and I started thinking about how you said that when you 'withdrawl' he seems to like being around you a bit more or interacting... I forget.

Anyway, I know you think that its because he likes you to have very little and very factual contact with him, but I wondered if it was possible that on some level he realises it when you do it and his giver is responding to your taker???

Just a thought

Jaune, I'm missing the part that you're feeling good about? That he agreed that you need to tone it down with DS6b? I didn't hear anything about where he agreed to do anything about his own behavior. It sounded like blame-shifting to me. You're sounding really happy, so I'm looking forward to hearing what I missed

I'm just happy that he actually talked! He remembered and kept his promise to bring up the fact that I wanted to talk, and he listened to the words I said and he said words in response.

Crazy, huh?

Such is my desperation for communication.

I mean, Jayne, I see lots of stuff to feel great about. He's opened a dialogue with you. You're sharing your O&H. And he's hearing it. You two have great jobs in the smae town, and a great new house that you're both happy with. Two healthy, full of energy kids. I do understand why you're happy

But I don't understand why you don't want to go through with the Harleys anymore. Because I want EVERY day to be full of joy for you. Not some happy days, and some yelling days. KWIM?

Ok. But, do you think I was just over-reacting about feeling the M needs enough work that calling the Harleys is warranted?

BTW I agree that in general, my life is pretty darn good and I'm very very fortunate. I am thankful, don't get me wrong.

Jayne, no, I don't think that you're overreacting. I also think your M needs enough work to call the Harleys. I think it needs a ton of work. My concern is that his abandonment is driving you out of your marriage. I think that as women we think we can ssacrifice more, and it will make everything okay. But that is the renter's agreement, that sacrifice is okay. Not the buyer's. Because the buyer knows that they have to fin win-win solutions, because that is the only way the marriage can thrive. And I believe you are a buyer, Jayne. That you're not just trying to get over the next hurdle. But that you're looking for a lifelong commitment that you two can grow in together.

... ... ... thinking...

sacrifice is a renter's mindset?

Ok if I call the Harleys, what do I tell them?

That you are still not getting your needs met in your marriage.

Are you?

No. But he sure does enough for most women. At least now that he has a job in the same country as I do.

If I didn't need Conversation and Affection, he'd be perfect.

I just had a very interesting thought. (This is very O/T BTW.)

Something KaylaAndy just posted something about someone's posts being "robotic". This person's posts are quite frustrating to me and I think to at least some others as well.

What if these weren't posted by a human, but by a computer program? You know, like that early program that would "psychoanalyze" you by answering every comment by saying, "And how did ________ make you feel?" I just googled "computer program personality" and found something on "chatterbots".

Intriguing. I wonder if programs could really be that advanced, to convince all of us that it was human. Fascinating. Even if it isn't true, the idea is fascinating.

have you ever talked to ALICE?

She has some flaws but is funny

Jayne, most marriages need 15 hours a week of UA time. Where both partners can feel free to share their hopes and dreams, and it's not "nagging." Think about the folks happily married 50+ years that you know, and you'll see that's true.

I'd tell him everything. That you want a marriage that lasts a lifetime. That just lately you two are working on POJA. That your H DJs your O&H as "nagging," and you stopped talking. About how he yells at you and shoves and pushes you and you are afraid to ask him to stop or to set boundaries. About how you don't get the O&H you need to function from him, and how you still have trouble with POJA together, like leaving work early to pick up the kids when you had a major deadline, becaue he didn't pick them up as promised. About how you two have minimal SF and he closes computer windows when you walk in the room. How you feel one child is favored and the other the scapegoat. That you two have done the questionnaires and you have the results with you. How you are concerned about his drinking and are wondering if that's an issue. That you have a need for Affection and Conversation and UA time that you are afraid to address, thinking that "mot women would be happy, so what's wrong with me?" That you've been worki on DJs for two years now, but aren't sure if you're doing well with that.

Did I leave anything out?

Do you get a sense that he likes being with you?

I am thinking like that because D18's boyfriend just broke up with her, said he just wanted to be single. He likes her a lot, but got out of a long relationship in July, says it's too soon to have a girlfriend. But they are doing what they call nowadays 'friends with benefits,' meaning they can still be affectionate with each other. The still walk to classes together, he still gives her kisses on the cheek or forehead, they still hug; she spent all afternoon and evening at his house yesterday.

She was wondering about it, read a poll he filled out online that said he likes being in a relationship, but would just rather be single right now.

I told her that I think he would love to still be dating her except for one thing: he doesn't want the pressure of being her boyfriend. Meaning, if you're a bf, there are expectations that go with it, like you have to clear with her whether you spend time elsewhere, you feel obligated to spend a certain amount of time with her, you have to ensure she's happy.

Maybe your H is such a person. What do you think?