But EE, are you talking about the MB MARRIAGE PROGRAM or the MB ENDING THE AFFAIR PROGRAM???

You do realize that Plans A and B are NOT part of the Weekend Seminar or the Home Study Course, right?

Dr. Harley cannot FORCE people to follow his program any more than Weight Watchers or AA can force people to follow theirs...What he does know is that if both partners work the program, the program works...That is a true fact and those who have done so are living proof of it...

It isn't a "failure" because one spouse refuses to do it...that makes no sense...Seriously, can you imagine if I contacted Weight Watchers and told them that their program was a failure because I had chosen not to enroll and follow their plans? I'm pretty sure they would hang up on me...

Mrs. W

Yet it shows how worthless the guarantee is. Look at what I said about the POJA. Dr H says don't order a home study course (or I suspect a MB weekend) if your spouse is not enthusiastically in favor of doing so.

The 100% figure is cited and often in discussions regarding Infidelity. It's meaningless.

In the cases here, folks ARE choosing to enroll in Dr H's plans, and I went as far as even doing the phone coaching with Steve. Yet his plan failed to bring my XW to the phone, let alone further along in the plan.

So it's not like I enrolled for WW and then didn't follow the plan. I enrolled, paid, and even followed the plan, did my homework, emailed Steve my homework, told him my XW wouldn't fill in the sheets given to her, so when he said fill them in as I thought she would, I did and e-mailed that to him.

After that, he really had nothing more. I believe he tried to engage her, but she would not respond. Whatever he said or wrote was not compelling enough to entice her to even enter the program.

So while that's not the home study course, we are in the infidelity section and folks are saying that the MB plan to deal with infidelity is working 100% of the time.

I know that is untrue.

Do the home study course work when there are two spouse who faithfully complete the assignments? Probably.

But that doesn't help the betrayed husband deal with a wayward and reluctant wife.

Since we are in the infidelity area, we are discussing the programs in the context of infidelity, and it does not work 100% of the time. The context of this thread is FOG GIBBERISH, so we are discussing MB in the context of a wayward spouse. We are not talking about a circumstance where both spouses have chosen to enter the program. Yet someone, I don't recall who, cited the 100% figure, trying to apply it to active infidelity. It doesn't fit there. As Dr H says, few WS's return, and most marriages are NOT saved, even if one spouse is successfully accomplishing his assignments in the MB plan to end an affair and restore romantic love.

EE,

You are misunderstanding the guarantee for sure...The guarantee is NOT about getting a WS to end the affair and return to the marriage...Not by a longshot...

The guarantee is about the restoration of marriage that occurs when both partners DO follow the program (the program for marital restoration, NOT the ending the affair plans)...Dr. Harley also guarantees that if you and your spouse are incompatible, that if you BOTH follow the POJA for ONE YEAR, you will become compatible...True...So the guarantees that Dr. Harley offers are realistic...For goodness sakes, he's not a fairy godfather, so of course he can't guarantee that a WS will return to the marriage and enthusiastically agree to work the program (and NOWHERE does he guarantee that - that is an IMPOSSIBLE STANDARD EE!)

Mrs. W

It's not me that misunderstands it.

Read here:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2149157#Post2149157

Specifically


So are you going to say that I don't understand the guarantee, or that others are "over selling" what MB can do.

I believe it's the latter, and my response is to that type of misleading information regarding the program.

-emphasis mine

I'm sorry, EE, I'm not following what it is that you don't understand about BK's quote...See, I happen to know that BK and his wife BOTH followed the home study course and they credit doing so with the restoration of their marriage...BK is telling you that in marriages where BOTH partners follow the program as laid out by either the Home Study Course or the MB Weekend Seminar the program works and the marriage is restored - hence the guarantee is valid...That is a true fact...So I'm confused about what you don't understand.

Mrs. W

EE, do you know of a married couple where BOTH partners did all the lessons involved in the program and didn't recover their marriage?

Mrs. W

It's not possible for any program, no matter how effective, to have a 100% success rate under any circumstances. Period.

Really? You don't think that if an overweight person follows Weight Watchers to the letter that they won't be 100% successful at losing weight?

Mrs. W

Like I said, I don't doubt that if a couple follows the program they'll recover their marriage.

The problem is, the guarantee is meaningless in most cases of infidelity.

I understand the guarantee. Good gravy, I'm a software engineer, logic is my bag. I understand conditionals, and I thought that was clear from the getgo.

Yet citing this 100% figure, while accurate, it's still meaningless to most folks who suffer infidelity.

Why?

Because not even Steve Harley can convince folks to engage in the program.

So from that perspective, while the guarantee may be 100% true, it's also 100% useless for most who find themselves in an infidelity situation, because their spouse refuses to end the affair and join in a course of study with the betrayed spouse.

I've seen success defined so many ways here, it will make your head spin.

Dr H gets to define success from his perspective, and that's fine, he is free to say what he wants.

But I'm also free to point out if those words have any real value to most folks who are betrayed.

It's my view that in most cases, that guarantee is not even on the table, because the wayward spouse refuses to accept or see the value of the program.

Is that TOTALLY the fault of Dr H? Of course not. Yet it IS a weakness or limitation of the program and that limitation needs to be spelled out clearly.

So while I believe what BH said was accurate, it's not the typical result. Most couples never get anywhere near trying the program.

The guarantee does little to help the BS when faced with the destruction of his marriage, and when presented in the fashion BH has presented it, may lead many BS's to conclude that since the program has a 100% success rate when tried, that the failure is totally his.

Will all feel this way? Nope.

Will some? Of course.

How many? I dunno. I know I was never asked for any kind of feedback by Steve Harley when the coaching came to nothing regarding ending the affair, etc.

I'm just saying we need to be careful that we not plant the seeds that BS are failures, when the reality is the effectiveness of MB is limited by the willingness of BOTH parties to engage.

Dr H shifts the blame for that to those who are unwilling to engage. I buy that to some extent. However, there is also something to be asked about why such a successful program that promises so much doesn't appear more attractive to folks than affairs, sneaking around, ugly divorces, etc.

What is it about MB that some folks would rather choose an affair and divorce over doing the work.

One cannot lay all the blame on the WS for the unattractiveness of entering the MB program. There is a limitation of the program that makes it an unappealing choice to most wayward spouses.

I understand the guarantee. I understand it enough to recognize that it's worthless to most BS's.

Like I've said, the parameters are narrowly defined.

It appears to me that you are interpreting what I've said to mean MB fails when both parties try. I've come no where close to saying that.

I've said, clearly, that the guarantee is essentially worthless to a betrayed spouse who defines success as the end of the affair and a restoration of romantic love.

I never said the program doesn't work under the very narrow circumstances defined by Dr H.

I'm simply saying that for most BS's that is not very useful.

Understand?

Okay, EE, but I don't agree that Dr. Harley "shifts blame"...He bears no blame to shift...He certainly can't be faulted for the affairs of others or their reluctance to work the program.

I think what you are seeing [hearing] from those of us who have worked the program and restored our marriages is a passionate belief in it...We have seen it work in our own lives, so naturally we will be eager to tout the effectiveness of it...

And I do understand your frustration at not seeing it work in your life - I don't think for a minute that that was a failure of yours - not at all! I'm truly sorry about what happened to you...Adultery is a horrible, horrible thing...

I am glad to hear that you have a new marriage, and I pray that you will have continued success in it...

Best,

Mrs. W

Let me put it to you this way. Let's say we have a betrayed husband, money is tight because he's paying child support to a wayward wife who moved out, left him with the mortgage, the car payment and all other debts too, while she pursues her affair.

He scrapes together the money to counsel with Steve Harley, does his homework faithful, tries to engage his wife in the manner Steve directs, even rehearses what he will say, etc, and Steve approves of his approach, tells him he's doing fine.

He spends money he really doesn't have at this time because he believes that MB is the best chance to save his marriage.

He gets to see his child EOW and maybe once during the week every other week as well. He's eliminated what love busters he knows about, but isn't sure because WW will not give him any feedback. He's trying to meet her EN's, but again is not sure, because she will not give him any feedback.

Steve tries to engage her, but she refuses to respond. Steve runs out of ideas.

When this guy ends up divorced, how do you tell him that MB didn't fail him? He's looking at a stack of credit card bills for coaching, books, etc in one pile, and a finalized divorce in the other, while the now XW is still involved in her affair 3+ years after she first moved out.

Are you going to be the one to tell him that it wasn't a failure of MB principles? Do you think he'll really believe that it was all his XW's failures? Or do you think that he'll believe that HE failed, especially when he's told over and over again that if MB doesn't work its because it wasn't tried, or tried imperfectly, etc.

I'll bet a years salary that most men are going to interpret that message is if THEY failed.

That is what I'm trying to avoid, that false blame often hear by BH's (as well as BW's but I know BH's much better than BW's.)

EE,

The fastest horse doesn't always win, but it is still the best bet, yes?

There are no guarantees surrounding a WS ending their affair and returning to the marriage, but I wholeheartedly believe that MB is the best shot at it...

Mrs. W

He bears no blame for the affair, sure. But it's his job to make his program appealing to the wayward, and if it's not, he DOES own responsibility for it not being more attractive than the affair, divorce, etc.

MB is a product and it's unique that it has to be chosen by both husband and wife. But to say that he bears no responsibility if a wayward spouse refuses to choose the product is untrue.
I'm glad it was effective. I don't doubt it's effectiveness. What I'm saying is the flaw is that it's not more appealing to more wayward spouses. And try as Dr H will to say that's not his responsibility, the reality is that he is responsible for packaging the product in a fashion that appeals and addresses the objections presented by WS's. In most cases, those objections are not effectively addressed.

I don't think it's valid for Dr H. to say that's not his fault, or however you want to phrase it.

It's a very real limitation to the program. It doesn't seem to appeal to many wayward spouses.

That's not totally a problem with the wayward spouse either. I'm not saying it's 100% Dr H's problem. But I'm not saying it's 100% the wayward spouse either. It's a weakness Dr H has not been very effective in overcoming with respect to the program.

I wish you the best as well. I simply don't wish to see people have their hopes dashed, to expect more than what is being promised, etc. The limitations are very real, and I think it's disingenuous not to point out that the program is not very attractive to the typical wayward spouse.

I don't think Dr H has zero responsibility for that circumstance. He doesn't have 100%, but it's not zero either.

EE, MB didn't fail your sample BH. His WW did. She has free will. No one can force the MB on a wayward. However, MB still has the best plan I have seen and the best chance to recover a marriage after infidelity.

And no, I don't think that it's correct to say that MB failed the BH in your earlier scenario...The WS is who/what failed that BH...I'd say that BH did a wonderful and noble job of taking the best shot he had to get the WS to end the affair and return to the marriage...I'd say that BH should be commended and respected, and I hope that he realizes what a stand up guy that he is...

Mrs. W

To be clear, when I was talking about worthless, it's not the program, but the guarantee is not very useful to the typical BS.

I wouldn't have tried the program if I didn't believe it was not valuable.

You know EE, the MB Home Study Course or the MB Weekend Seminar is NOT just for the recovery of marriages that have encountered infidelity...It is a program geared towards making all marriages the best and most solid they can be...I'd highly recommend it to you and your new wife, and hope you'll consider it.

Mrs. W

The Plan laid out by Dr. Harley to help end the A is definitly unattractive to a wayward. It is laid out to help an A end and help the wayward hit bottom quickly as possible.
What person is ever excited about hitting a bottom?

EE - I understand your point, I just don't think that Dr. H's guarentee (if he in fact gives one) is worthless. In overly simplistic terms for a BS that has a WS, there are 3 problems that a BS can come to Dr. H with.

1. My WS is cheating on me.
2. My WS has ended their A, but won't recommitt to the M.
3. My WS has ended their A, committed to the M, but we don't know how to be "in love".

For problem 1, he says their are no guarantees, but try plan A/B.

For problem 2, he says well you have to have fixed problem 1, their are still no guarantees, try introducing them to the concepts, etc.

For problem 3, he says well you have to have fixed problem 2, and follow this program and I guarentee you will be "in love".

I just don't agree that you can conclude that the guarantee he gives for his solution to problem 3 is worthless because he doesn't guarantee a solution to problem 1 and 2. Unless you are saying A's never end naturally, or people never committ to a M without being "solved" into it.

That said, I do understand how most people will not view this as three discrete problems. And I think sometimes that is what gets "over sold". A perception of if you follow the program, your WS will quit their A, recommitt, and you will be in love. That MB will solve all 3 problems as 1 problem. It doesn't happen that way.

But to be fair, a vast majority of the posters do not advise this way. They clearly break it into stages. Get them to end the A, wait out their WD, entice them into following the program, etc.

Additionally, I don't think people "over sell" with any malice. Its just people spreading the word about what worked for them. And I really don't think that does any harm to newbies.