From Fact Check - Obama's words - sorry I dont agree with him which is my right. My apologies to Obamabots

FH, thank you for taking this stand. So called Christians that support Obama are indeed hypocrites. The quotes you quoted from another poster continue to erode what little respect I have left for him. I do not blame those with no beliefs in God for their stance on abortion. I KNOW they are wrong, but if it nothing more than a lump of cells to them it is difficult to hold them to the same moral standard that I hold one who professes a belief in Christ.

I am still wondering if he described the procedure in detail to his child. I would say not as it would erode a child's respect for a parent that could stand for such an atrocity.

What Obama did was to vote FOR the inclusion of the federal verbage that he "said" was needed, THEN he voted to KILL THE BILL in its entirety.

Here, I don't have time to type up the relavant information, so if really want to know what Obamessiah DID in Illinios, and what his stance about abortion is, here are 3 three links among many that you can read for yourself.



http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/obama_and_infanticide.html


http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=51121


http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/aug/08081101.html


IF you don't like the word "infanticide," fine. Why don't you post some other term you "like" to describe the killing of infants.

But the FACT is Obama IS for all abortions, and for any abortion attempt to end in the death of the baby even if it did live to breathe outside the womb despite the abortionists "best efforts."

Yes, it DOES happen.

A reporter from the Chicago Sun Times investigated this, and was horrified at his findings. He had expected the hospital to deny its procedure of putting live babies out w/ the trash. Instead he learned that it was happening.

"Most people would recoil at just the thought of such a gruesome, uncaring procedure, but it is practiced at at least one Chicago suburban hospital. When I called Christ Hospital and Medical Center in Oak Lawn, I frankly expected a denial that it uses the procedure, but instead a spokeswoman explained it is used for "a variety of second-trimester" abortions when the fetus has not yet reached viability. That's up to 23 weeks of life, when a fetus is considered not yet developed enough to survive on its own.

Instead of medical care, the child is provided "comfort care," wrapped in a blanket and held when possible. The procedure is chosen by parents and doctors instead of another method in which the fetus is "terminated" within the womb by, for example, injection with a chemical that stops the heart. Under Christ Hospital's procedure, which the spokeswoman said is used at some other area hospitals, the abortion is induced with prostaglandin, a drug that relaxes the cervix and allows for the fetus to be born."

"But the procedure itself raises deeper questions. First, there's the legality. It should be up to the attorney general and state's attorney to determine whether the procedure is infanticide. Read Roe v. Wade upside down and sideways, and I find nothing in it that legitimizes the killing of a born child. If the law is unclear, the Legislature should make it clear.

Looming larger is the moral question. Partial-birth abortions supposedly are acceptable because a small part of the child still remains in the birth canal, and thus is considered unborn when it is killed. The Christ Hospital case now makes it clear that legal rights and protections don't even begin with birth, as many pro-choice advocates have staunchly argued. That even a live, born human being has no right to life because someone else has decided its chances at life are slim. Or that its life won't be worth living.


My only question to them is: To what he!! is this leading us?" LINK

And THIS is why Obama says he supports infanticide:

Obama, Senate floor, 2002: [A]dding a – an additional doctor who then has to be called in an emergency situation to come in and make these assessments is really designed simply to burden the original decision of the woman and the physician to induce labor and perform an abortion. … I think it’s important to understand that this issue ultimately is about abortion and not live births.

Medc, none of us agrees on everything all the time.

But God's directive to believers seems clear enough...


"Resist evil."

"Bring your child up in the NURTURE and ADMONITION of the Lord."

"Suffer the little children to come unto me and FORBID THEM NOT."


Abortion on demand is EVIL. In everything else in life that we might choose, WE "pay the consequences." But not with abortion. The BABY, a completely separate human being "pays the ultimate price" for our "wants and desires" to be able to do anything we want to do, responsibility for our actions FREE.


For an unbeliever, "forgive them for they know not what they do." For a believer....There is NO excuse.

Christians "in name only" are the PROBLEM. But you already know my position on that. So I won't go there now.

Thanks to you too. I know you have always been "pro-life" and against the "on demand" pro-death-of-children folks.

Exactly...and frankly, IMHO, these "Christians" are 1000x worse than adulterers.

$2,916 per year is likely only your share. I'll bet your employer is picking up %70-80 of the total premium for you. That, or you have the cheapest family plan ever.

My share of my coverage is $2760 per year, or 20% of the total premium. My company pays the other 80%.

If I had to go out and buy the same coverage on my own, it would cost me $13,800 per year, if my math is correct. A $5,000 tax credit wouldn't come close to being enough.

That's assuming that I could get that coverage for the rate my company pays...it would likely be more.

$13,800 (current group rate) - $5,000 tax credit - the $2,760 I already pay = $6,040

$6,040 / 12 = $503.33 per month more

Coming up with $500 per month more than I'm paying now, in exchange for "getting to select my own health insurance"? I'll pass.

This is the worst idea proposed by either campaign.

That's awfully judgemental...for a "good" Christian.

She knows...I have explained it to her...You may recall that I posted her letter to the President regarding her belief that abortion is WRONG...Btw, she received a very nice letter from him in response...

Our dd also works on her dad regarding his choice of candidate and that candidate's stance on abortion...and I continue to pray about it...

I'm very torn here, because some of the things being said about Mr. W regarding this issue are really painful to ME...I love him...It is instinctual for me to want to defend him when I feel he's being attacked...But I also don't know if something said may get through...I think the way some things are being said aren't the best way to get through to him...I do know him well...I would ask for prayers, rather than all out personal attacks...Bearing in mind that we don't know God's timetable for Mr. W's journey...And I do understand that God uses his footsoldiers here...Like I said, this stuff tears me up and I probably just need to stop reading it for now...

Currently our church is doing a Wednesday series on the election..."Jesus in '08"...One of the messages will be dealing with abortion...We will be there...So I continue to hope and pray...

Mrs. W

P.S. Medc, we were NOT "rude" at our friend's wedding...I was there, and I can assure you that no one would have found us to be rude...no way, no how...

YOU don't pay $12,000 a year ....

Yes, my company picks up the other portion of the premium, it's called a BENEFIT where I work......the key word being "WORK"

You are going under an "IF" scenario...."IF" you had to go out and buy your own health insurance.

I suggest that we all to stop looking at the government to regulate Health Care. Start looking at the lawmakers and congress to do something about Tort medical lawsuits and Medicaid, both of which drive up health care costs and premiums.

For those that think socialize medicine is the answer, take a hard look at european countries and their Socialized Medical programs. Here in the US everyone wants/needs what they want/need NOW. It's going to work really well when we have to wait 6 months for an MRI, X-ray or other tests.

Do you think that those that will make these laws to change us into socialized medicine will have to wait for any medical care. Do you think Barrack or Michelle, their kids, or anyone else in their family is ever going to have to wait??? I DON'T THINK SO.

We saw how well it worked in Hawaii.....7 months and the program was bankrupt. Had a lot to do with people that had Health Insurance dropping their coverage so that they could get the 'free' coverage. Why pay $3000 or more a year for Health Coverage when the government will give it to me for free?

Does anyone really believe that it will be any different if it was nationwide?

Where you think McCain's plan won't work......I don't think either of them will work. Neither of them have a clue as to how to fix it, or have the gonads to do what is needed because we wouldn't want to offend anyone....

They all need to stop being so darned Politically Correct and fix that problems this country has....

Well i am not here to get in the political debate but i did want to put in my 02 cents about the cost of health care.

JoJo you must work for a WONDERFUL company. My current premiums (through my employer also an HMO and a large company) are $4,500.00/year and my employer covers 70% of my premium. At my previous employer my premiums were double that at least and that was about 15 years ago i could not imagine what they are at that same company now.

If i were to get a comparable coverage on my own i am sure it would be at least Krazy's figure ($12,000) if not more.

As long as someone has brought up abortion, I have a question. Not baiting, I'm genuinely interested in people's responses.

There's a commercial on tv where I live, of a young couple with a son. She had been pregnant with twins, but there was something wrong with one of the twins, somehow or other he was getting his nourishment through the other twin although I don't think they were conjoined. He would not have survived even until birth I think, and he would have killed the other twin in the process. They had to make the difficult decision of aborting one twin to save the other (and this was NOT just selective reduction) or losing both twins.

What about cases like this, or severe conjoined cases where one twin cannot survive supporting the other twin?

The law usually lists exceptions as being to save the life of the mother. What about to save the life of another baby?

Another factor to consider in calculating the cost of health insurance: the cost (the total cost, your portion plus your employer's contribution) is likely lower than what an individual would pay, simply because large corporations can get reduced group rates.

I think the problem with both candidates' health care proposals is that they don't go nearly far enough.

Like banking, private companies have proven they can't be trusted to operate a decent system. I think socialized medicine is the way to go. It's worked in many other industrialized nations, and most of the knocks against it are without merit.

IMO the first step of any serious health care reform involves rendering health insurance companies extinct.

If it were truly the ONLY option, I would not have any issue with it.

Palin says kill 'em both.

Krazy, I'll tell you what I'll do for you. No names, but if you will post the ages of yourself, your wife, your children(and if they are male or female) and whether or not any of you smoke, I will run a quote based on that information for you for what it would cost for an individual family policy. Also, if you know it, what is the deductible and copay (i.e, $1000 deductive/80-20 to $10,000, etc.) of your company plan?

Something you are forgetting is HOW insurance companies arrive at the premium rates for a given group. But I won't go into that now as you are more interested in how the proposed healthcre initiatives of the candidates might affect YOUR family and YOUR health insurance costs.

I also note that you have not commented on the Government healthcare rates that I posted earlier. Why not?

Mrs W...I KNOW this must be painful for you. I am sorry that you feel your husband is being attacked. IMHO, he is spouting lies and rhetoric that he knows to be untrue...and that is terribly disappointing coming from a Christian.

I feel for your daughter because if you truly described the procedure...and not just that a baby is killed...I can imagine the horror she must feel towards her dad right now. My son questioned how any human being could think something like that is okay...and thinks anyone that feels that way is a terrible person. Being an advocate for choice means fighting for the right to have children dismembered, crushed and quartered. It can't be sterilized no matter how much the other side wants to do that.

I will pray for Mr. W. I ask him to look at the company he is keeping here. For the most part they are Godless people that do not believe that a human being is being killed.


I am sorry Mrs. W for the awkwardness this has caused you. I will not be responding to Mr. W's posts directly from now on. I have made my point and have nothing left to say to him regarding this.

In my opinion, the major problem with health care is about four fold. First, Medicare decides they will pay doctors a maximum amount about 60% of what is reasonable. Doctors, in turn, order a bunch of unnecessary tests and extra office visits to milk Medicare out of more money. Second, ignorant ace people go to the emergency room (no insurance) when they have a cold, stub their toe, etc. At $1000 a visit, each uninsured visit gets passed on to the rest of us who pay (i.e. a real emergency room visit only costs $500 but since only half ever pay for that visit they double the price). Third, we think everyone should live until they are 100. If we were all Christian scientists (do not believe in any health care), insurance would be very cheap b/c no one would use it. But most of us want to go to the doctor when we have a heart attack to try to live. We all gripe b/c the bill is $200,000, but god forbid we do not go and die. That to me is saying human life is worth $200K. I would say most people would value their life to be worth a lot more than that. Fourth, there is a point where doctors and nurses won't make enough to justify their working, and then you end up with no health care.

The problem with health care is that there is no "solution". Their are pros and cons to different plans, but you will never make everyone happy (doctors, nurses, medical professionals, insurance companies, and patients). If you go to a merit system, those who can pay will get healthcare and those who cannot pay will die (Darwin's natural selection). If you nationalize health care, those who have money will go wherever they can get health care as fast as possible (China possibly). Those of us who can't will die waiting. Not much differnce. JMO

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You are advocating turning a daughter against her father just because he doesn't share your belief on an issue that has no bearing on either of your lives.

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