{{ears}}

I'm so sorry.

Cat, thanks for the hugs. Really, it's okay. I've been praying for clarity. That if I'm to stay, or to separate, to please make it obvious. This really does make it more black and white to me. Not that I'm rushing a decision. I'm still keeping an open mind. We are new every day.

Sometimes people fall out of love with each other. Love banks, and all. We tried, cat. A lot of folks wouldn't have been willing to go to MC, to do the homework. I really appreciate the time that we have had.

I just can't believe he's willing to miss out on 90% of his daughters' growing up, of being there for them, just to follow a stupid dream. And, yes, I can say stupid!

I was reading Dobson's Love Must Be Tough, and it says that sometimes a partner has to create a crisis to get through to their spouse. H didn't read that book, but I think that's what he may be trying to do. To shake things up, like booka said. Because the way it was going, he was not happy, either. I could be totally wrong, but I don't believe that he intends to stay out there permanmently if the kids and I don't follow. I think he is aiming to force my hand, to get out there together, without negotiation. His decison to own. Like his decision this summer to go temporarily.

We had a poster on here a few years ago, FaithHopeLove, who recovered with her H after his A. He moved, and the board told her she was the problem for not being willing to move. I didn't understand that conclusion, and I don't remember asking for clarification. But there are people who do believe that way, that the trailing spouse needs to follow.

That's just blatant manipulation, IMO. But I was thinking it, too, that he was expecting you to capitulate.

How many men move for the wife's career? Not many, I'd bet. Too much ego involved. Kind of like being a male First Lady.

Cat, I hear you. I did ask H once to move for my career, when we went to Minnesota. At the time, it was the only place he found work, too. It was a hard decision.

It's not over yet, though. I'm trying to keep an open mind here. I am looking forward to see if how he explains this to the MC. I think I still have a long ways to go to understand him. And I don't think he understands me, either, that I don't intend to go at this point.

Cat, when I was thinking about wanting to separate, a month or two ago, because he was so hostile every day, I was hoping that he'd just go. I told him, just go, we'll figure it out later. My IC agreed at that time that was the best decision, to let him know I was for him going, without us, because it's not good for the kids to live in a hostile environment. I was floored that he didn't go at that point, and said that no, he was going to look for work here when his current work project wraps up. I think him going to SoCal for a time may be a lot kinder to the kids than a formal separation. If I was sure that it made sense to keep trying in the house, I think this today would have hit me a lot harder. I haven't really been able to get my mind around that yet. As it is, it looks like a natural step on the path we've been on for some time.

I hope that doesn't sound like I've totally given up on us, because I haven't. But I'm not looking at that as the most likely outcome.

Ears, you are not me and I'm not telling you what you should be willing to do. But I would like to tell you how things have shaped up for me, ok?

Remember H and I living most of the year apart, cus his dream job was elsewhere; then he gave up his dream job (sort of; he was still able to do some consulting by telecommuting) to move to where I was. Then another opportunity opened up that was perfect for him, and there was a chance I could get a job there. But it would be a step down for me, and I would be giving up some job security, and the place is tiny and has an awful-sounding name and just sounds backwards and ugly.

But here I am. This place is gorgeous, the people are very very nice (and a genuine nice, not a fake nice like they're trying to recruit you into their religion or something), and my job, my job is soooooo much fun, the ppl are wonderful and I basically just have fun all day. I have the support to do so much more than at my other place, even though you'd think it would be the exact opposite due to it being a smaller place.

As long as you're working on keeping an open mind, I just wanted to remind you of my recent experience.

And the happiness that a situation will bring your spouse is also something to be factored in. Will the family be happier as a whole, if H is in the job he's been wanting? (Of course the same thing could be said the other way round, that he should consider what will bring you happiness too.)

Jayne, I hear you, there may well be a happy life awaiting my family in SoCal. I went there the summer of '07, with an open mind to staying if it was obvious that it was better for us as a family. H says he was happier, but he and I got along terribly. I did make friends out there, found a church, get settled. But I was SO happy to come back. It's not a better place to raise kids or to live or work.

I hear you about moving to make a spouse happier. That's not a win-win, though. That's a win-lose.

I was feeling pretty detached yesterday, but I am feeling sad today. I'm trying not to live by my feelings. To rise above it. I keep going through my gratitude list in my head, listening to music. I'm going to go to the gym at lunch today, get those good chemicals going. I was O&H with H that I'm sad about him leaving, but I'm working on it.

Who is doing something for YOU? What can you do to set that up? Visit a friend or relative? Volunteer somewhere? Pet a neighbor's cat?

I went to IC last night, but I talked most of the time about D18, problems I see with her. Because she had IC an hour after my appointment, and I wanted to make sure the IC knew what was going on in D18's life before she saw her. But at the end of my meeting, after IC had told me ways to help D18, and work with H, I just stopped for a second, and said 'When does someone do something for ME?' Sad moment.

So don't let yourself get into that, just because you're such a nice person. Take what you need from others.

{{{ears}}}

Cat, one of my best friends, who knows that I've been having troubles in my marriage but not all the details, got tickets to take the four of us and her H to somewhere special for a surprise Friday. Another birthday gift from her, what a nice surprise! I don't know where it is, but I'm really looking forward to it.

I don't get heavy into volunteering outside the home, just do small things here and there instead of a regular commitment. For a while, I was doing Alanon beginner meetings, and that felt good, to give back to a group that has been a lifeline for me. I can sign up to do that again, once a month so it doesn't get overwhelming timewise.

Hi ears,

I can imagine that you would start to feel sad as it starts to sink in that he may be going to Cal without you.


What I was trying to say is that it *might* be a win-win in some sitches. I moved to make my spouse happier. But I am happier as a result. A LOT happier, not just "well I'm happy that you're happy." It could be a win-win if him being happy makes the whole family dynamics better. It could also be a win-win if you look for the opportunities the new place presents. Your attitude is your decision. <gentle reminder nudge, not scolding or lecturing or demanding, ok?>

Jayne, I am not arguing, I am asking for clarification. We went there, for 5 vacations there over the years, and for two months in the summer of 2007. He says that he was happier there. But he drank more, was more resentful, more hostile, to me and DD12. He didn't act happier in a way that made family dynamics better. I made friends, found a church, found an Alanon group, that stuff was okay. Not better than here.

He went again last summer, without me. He was happier that time. Spent lots of time with the kids. He does that here. Again, not better than here.

This Plan A is to be a better spouse, right? One that lives by my values.

I understand that for you it was a win-win. You weren't happy at your other position, and this one is better. Both of you can work. I see how that's a world of difference better than the other place.

What I'm not seeing is what would be better in our situation here for us as a whole family about us moving than staying here. It is more expensive, traffic is much worse, folks have longer commutes. There are benefits, like DD12 has a manager and an agency, and there is more recreation there. And to H, it's a benefit to be away from my family.

Jayne, I have no doubt that I could be happy wherever I go. But I don't want to move to a place that is a net loss for us, when we're barely getting along here. I think this has from the beginning been a distraction from making real changes.

I can see that this may be true.

I guess I was just *hoping* that moving could be a win-win for you as it has been for me. It's been stressful (as you know since you've talked me down numerous times!) but it's definitely better than before. I with the same could be true for you.

Another thing that is different in my case is that H and I are in the same field, and we both place a high priority on our careers. Since we're in the same career that isn't exactly taking away from the M. In fact when things are bad, the only thing that keeps me in is the ties we have through our kids and our work. If it wasn't for the work I might have walked away a few times, which would've been a very bad mistake. But anyway, since I am a person who places a high priority on career, I would not feel good about keeping my spouse from his dream job. So I was hearing in your posts the part about how H has wanted to move to Cal. for years. I was forgetting that you've already BTDT, and also that him saying everything would just be better if ..... may be a distraction from making real changes.

Let me just raise one more possibility, I'm not saying I think this is likely, I just want to raise the possibility... could this time be different, if he has changed in some ways for the better? If this last time he was in Ca. he was better, do you think that could happen with the both of you?

Another way of looking at it: If you have a happier marriage in Ca. than you do here, would that be enough for you to be enthusiastic about moving? If so, then the question becomes, would you have a happier marriage there than here.

I'm NOT saying you would. I hear that it hasn't happened yet. And I don't know what it would take for you to know if this time would be different. But, we are new every day - has your H grown too? Is he different, or could he be different and new?

You're asking if he's acting differently. These sessions with the MC are really helping, and we are connecting at times differently. But we have before, too. He has been my ally before, only to turn on me when he sees me as an obstacle. Reading Why Does He Do That? really helped sink in some ideas that I have learned again and again. That he gets hostile because he gives himself permission to, not because I'm not trying hard enough. I didn't cause it, I can't control it, and I can't cure it. That good times are PART OF THE CYCLE, not a signal that the cycle is complete.

Jayne, I want to undersatnd. I am so glad that things are feeling different for you today. I want to understand, how do you differentiate that you are getting along differently together today. I am not being facetious. I think there is something you are getting that I may be missing. How has moving worked, made a lasting change in your marriage? Why when I read your thread, I see same-old same-old, and you are experiencing it anew.

I am wondering if this is similar to what cat is saying, that I only like things that fit into my box, and I appear to her rigid about a lack of openness about things outside of the plan. That I approach thes outside things with worry and agitation that agitates my family.

It's not making sense to me that the answer to that is moving cross-country. I would think that I could grow in openness and flexibility by trying smaller things outside of my comfort zone.

Jayne I wanted to say, too, that I do agree with you, that we are new every day. And there are folks who move every day, and they are fine. I am being honest with H. I undersatnd that it makes sense to you that you want to move now. I am sking you to show me how it's better for everyone. Clarify what's in it for all of us. But he hasn't come up with anything besides DD12's acting thing.

And that for me is not reason to uproot a family. She didn't even want to try out for her last play at school, just did it at her father's urging. She's working hard to keep her grades up.

Hi ears, I just have time for a quick reply.

Two things: First of all, the ways I was thinking of that *my* life is better, are actually NOT so much about my marriage; I was mainly talking about how the place we moved to is so much nicer than I had expected. Secondly, I'm simple-minded, in that it doesn't take much for H to get me thinking thigns are better. Yep, I'm still on a "high" cus he talked to me for 5-10 minutes the other night! I'm not saying that's a good way to be. I think I'm pretty naive for being that way. But if you're asking why do I *feel* better about things right now, that's a big reason why I am *feeling* better.

Please don't get mad at me the next time I am feeling down.

Or maybe you should, maybe I need to be held accountable to taking action even when I start feeling better.

Okay, I kept thinking it was other stuff. Sorry, it's not helpful to keep asking the same question as the other day. I thought, maybe it's not just the 5-10 minutes, but rather that that time helped you reset so you could enjoy the rest of the good stuff going on, like maybe he's being nice to you and the kids, sharing some RC or FC or UA time, said something funny at dinner. It's hard for me to picture someone who just doesn't talk at all, not at dinner, not in the car, not on the phone. But we can get used to a lot of things. So you and the kids just talk the three of you?

Thanks for being patient with me today. I appreciate you being here.

*hugs Jayne*

It is amazing how such little things can make us feel better. I will continue to send positive thoughts your way.