He told me, too, that he was going to have to go out on business this week, too. I said thanks for the heads-up. He looked at me, waiting for me to ask him to stay. I told him, and I told myself, I'm sorry, I can't keep doing this. It's not healthy for me to keep trying to respectfully persuade you into different decisions. You know how I feel about the travel already. He called and said that he didn't know if he could travel this week, as I had an oputpatient procedure this morning. His boss said no problem.

The level of wine needed to gain the healthful prevention of heart disease is only one glass a day, not 3 or 4. Also, the same benefits can be obtained from drinking grape juice. Don't think he'd like to hear that either!

I'm glad to hear that he's willing to do a separation first. Regarding the end of the year plan, how are you planning to cope with Christmas? If you separate at Christmas time this may ruin things a bit for the kids each Christmas. Although they may be young enough to not remember this so much later.

Ears, I think I missed something in your post. You mentioned having an out-patient procedure, and said that you don't want to move to CA with this "disease". I thought at first you meant dh's disease of drinking, but maybe I misread this?

Ears, I'm so torn that it's turning out this way. I want to offer my support but I don't want to offer my advice because I think the advice I would give is what you are trying to grow out of. Either I'm projecting my stuff onto your sitch, or my own reluctance to take action or willingness to think all is well, or something. Anyway, hugs and prayers to you.

Happy, yes, H did drink grape juice daily for a little while several years back, when his liver count was high and his doctor asked him to stop drinking for a while to get the numbers back down.

H just told DD12, without me, today. I haven't gotten to see her, she's been going from dramam practice to band practice. He said that she wasn't upset. He's told them this before. I was hoping to tell them both around New Years' instead. But I understand that H thought she was ready.

My IC said this time, aroung Thanksgiving, would be good to tell the kids, because they would be focused on the holidays, and wouls see that we are okay, so they would feel okay. I tohught it might be better to wait, especially for DD7.

When I said disease, I was thinking of the drinking. The procedure I had this morning was a small thing. I had a small cut I didn't know about, and it got infected, and they had to drain it. It hurts really bad to move around, so I'm glad he's here this week.

Jayne, I understand what you meant this morning about what a blessing to have a partner. I always like reading oyur advice, it always helps me get clarity. I'm sorry that I get defensive sometimes. I know that I need to keep an open mind.

Jayne, I'm sorry to give you the impression that your advice is something I'm trying to grow out of. I did take your advice, and thought, what it would have taken for me to get enthusiastic about moving. So I could be clear with myself and with H.

I do find myself feeling more hopeless, so I started back on the ADs. I haven't exercised because I've been in some pain with this cyst thing.

H says this morning that he would give up the drinking, if we went to California. He has made agreements and stuck to them, and he has made agreements and failed. On the drinking, when his doctor has asked him to stop for a time, he was successful with that, not sneaking drinks, until his liver count was back down.

He said he would not be enthusiastic about this, though, it would be "with great reluctance."

I don't know what to make of this. The ADs haven't kicked in yet, and I am still deep in withdrawal. I don't want to take such big chance on a future with H, even though I know that goes against my values. I have wanted to see proof first, to see us get along respectfully for some time together first. He still doesn't show respect for me as an equal. He still DJs me daily, doesn't believe in my ability to think clearly. That makes two of us on this subject.

I don't see this as "change I can believe in." I am thinking about calling the Harleys for help with this agreement, whether it is even a good idea.

Oh, ears... I think that's great news!!! But then again I'm the one who keeps repeating the same bad cycle over and over again cus I keep thinking everything will be ok if I just try harder. That's why I hesitate to comment. But still, *I* am hopeful for you, however naive that may be!

Can I suggest something? Please understand, I don't know much about alcoholics. I'm not an alcoholic (which I know saying that is a sign that you may be! lol but I'm just letting you know where I'm coming from). I can and have gone months without a drink, without noticing. I regularly turn down drinking wine because I don't want to get sleepy. But I like the *idea* of drinking wine with dinner. I would not want to promise someone that I would never drink again.

But when I do decide to drink, I can certainly stop at one glass if I want to. Or even just part of one glass, just because I like the idea of having a glass of wine - I don't actually have to drink all of it. So, if your H can NOT stop at one or two glasses, then this would be very bad advice - I realize that. But if he is able to limit what he drinks - I think the heart-healthy recommendation for men is 2 glasses of wine a day - would that be an acceptable amount of drinking to you? Or is he the type of person who needs to never touch alcohol again, because it spirals out of control?

Others who aren't in the midst of repeating bad patterns may come and say something completely different. But my inclination (and remember where I'm coming from) is to want to give positive reinforcement for his willingness to negotiate, and to try to meet him halfway, with an open mind. Look for the opportunity. A happy family in Calif. to me sounds better than a split family even if you get to stay with your friends and family.

My thoughts. I know I may be off.

Jayne, this, what you're suggesting, was what the last MC suggested. One to two a day. Keeping an open mind. She was trained in Imago, not in addictions. When we met alone, she would tell me, this is not alcoholism because he functions at work. Because he doesn't have DUIs. She would read through a list of things, and she would say no, he doesn't meet these, and I would say, yes he does. Like missing events because of hangovers. Like missing work. She says, he doesn't do that now in the present. I said he has done that while we were together. I understand her POV, that someone raised with an alcoholic might paint that term with a broad brush. He does not stick to one or two. He said this to the MC. Three or four a day three or four days a week. And it is more than that.

My IC has been trained in addiction, and has felt from the beginning that H abused alcohol. Differnt definition than alcoholic. He also says that if your spouse has a problem with the drinking, then it is a problem in the marriage. Before me, H has had other girlfriends tell him they had a problem with his drinking, too. He told me this at the beginning, as if they were ridiculous, and in my ignorance, I agreed with him then that was ridiculous. His brother, who has been in AA for 20+ years, told me that I needed to get him immediate help at one point. I don't believe he would make a statement like that lightly.

I've been in Alanon almost 3 years, a program that shows you how to achieve serenity whether the person is still drnking or not. I can tell you that if this was something that I was willing to live with, I would know that by now.

This is why I think calling the Harleys may bring us clarity, because Dr. Harley started his career in substance abuse treatment.

Jayne, if your drinking bothered your H, and he asked you to stop, I believe that you would. That you would not choose to hurt him.

Jayne, why I won't live with the drinking
- no SF for weeks at a time
- buzzed most date nights
- can only go to places that serve alcohol for date night, or once in a while a movie
- worry for him when he's out of town - can't reach him in the evening
- hung over and angry when we go on rare "just us" vacations
- concern that this is only part of the cycle, waiting for the next shoe to drop
- expects me to drive him when we go to holiday functions and he drinks - big AOs from him when I don't go along with that
- his anger and disconnect when I raise my concerns
- when he tells me he had to go back to his hotel room because he's not feeling well when he's out of town, I wonder if he's been binging
- buddy trips where I'm not "allowed"

These are just the things that come to me at first. I hear you that any of these in isolation are not worth busting up a marriage over. But taken together, when I think, are we better off with him or without him, the answer is obvious to me.

I talked to my family law friend, and she says there is no legal separation in Florida. I hadn't predicted that.

Ears, thanks for the list. I understand a bit more why you feel the way you do.

It's also opening my own eyes to stuff for me. Here is what I could say myself:


Do you think that's true for the kids too? Do you think your DDs are better off without him living in the same house as you? ETA: I'm not saying they aren't better off, I'm asking.

How have they reacted to his telling them?

I haven't had an alone moment with DD12 to ask her how she feels. She had a friend sleep over last night to spend the day off for Veteran's Day today with her. Her friend will be picked up by the time I get home, so I can speak with her tonight. H agreed not to tell DD7 yet.

Jayne, I don't think we're showing the kids a healthy relationship. The same lack of respect that H shows for me, and lack of confidence, he shows for DD12, too. He is a great father to them in a lot of ways, and he says that he wants joint custody. I think that it may be easier on DD12 if she has a reprieve from that, too. She would tell you, like cat says, that I'm too protective, but her dad balances that out. So it may well feel like a reprieve to her going to her dad's too. I have heard from others that it's hard for a sibling to see the parent fighting with the other sibling. So I think it would be better for DD7, too.

But I couldn't honestly tell you, jayne, that I'm leaving FOR the kids. My friend who just divorced separated at a point that their DD9 was ready for them to separate. They fought so badly all the time. She's very relieved they are in two houses now. But our kids are not asking for this.

There's no legal separation in FLA, but you could come up with an agreement with your dh on your own. Sort of like "Dh, I agree that you will go to CA and I'll stay here. We'll do a trial separation for 3 months and see how that goes. During that time you will send us $500/month to pay for the kids expenses. We will communicate via email and phone. At the end of that time we'll reevaluate to see if we want to get back together or to start divorce proceedings. How does that sound?"

Its not legally enforceable, but you can go directly to divorce if he fails in his comitment, so at least you'd know where you stand.

I would call your dh on his bluff about the drinking and say "OK, lets give this a try, you don't have anything to drink until after christmas." I doubt he will take you up on this.

Ooooh I *like* that!!! Over the holidays, wow. That's tough. If he can do that...

Ears, I don't think you have to be doing this FOR the kids. It's ok to do it for you, to protect yourself. I was just wondering if you thought the kids would also be better off. It sounds like you think they would be.

I'm tempted to agree with your MC who says he may *abuse* alcohol without being an alcoholic. I certainly abused alcohol in college. A lot. A whole lot. I think at one point I was averaging a pitcher of beer a day, for a long time. It started when XWH left me, and continued for a looooong time, even beyond graduation.

That doesn't mean I'm right, I'm just sharing my thoughts.

Happy, I don't want to give H a false hope. If he doesn't drink through the holidays, I don't know that would build my trust in him. My stepdad was a "dry drunk" for a while. Until he went back to it. Even folks with a program, which H is unwilling to do, can revert back. His siblings who are "in program" have stayed sober, while the other one is not. What I learned reading SAA is that we CAN learn to trust ourselves, to respond according to our integrity, regardless of what those around us do.

Jayne, about the kids, I think this would be better for them in some ways, like seeing progressive boundaries in action. That when one set is not protective enough, we can go to another level. I think it will be worse for them in other ways, like not having the same family together memories. That kicks me in the gut to write that. I still am working through those expectations.

I wanted to give the kids that, which I didn't have. I am so glad that you are getting the help that you need in your marriage, Jayne, so your kids can live that, seeing how an unhealthy family becomes a healthy one. To see how to build a marriage that lasts a lifetime.

I hear you about the family togetherness, but I will suggest that, just by you being here, and doing all the reading and thinking and soul-searching that you do, your kids will never want for love or affection. And that's really all there ever is.

I doubt they'll lose touch with their dad, and you seem to be doing this amicably. So IMO, this may just be the best thing you could do for them - give them a mother who is finally free to be herself, much less stress, quicker with a smile for them.

My biggest regret for D18 is I've spent so many of her years with me in a depression, or withdrawn, when I should have been all about her. I think you'll be giving this gift to your daughters.

Ears:

Congratulations for taking better care of yourself. Setting boundaries and protecting yourself. Not going along with your H just because it is easier or avoids conflict. As someone who has trouble doing this in my life, I admire you for taking a stand.

No, I am not happy to hear your news. But I am happier than if I heard you agreed to move to CA despite your H continuing to drink. Now THAT would have been sad news.

Thanks for this, cat. I do see where this is expectation on my part. My goal here is to give H and I the best chance to reconnect as equals from a healthier space. To save what I have left in the Love bank.


I do agree with all of this. I was leaving a lot, and even in the house, had to go to another room a lot of the time. I am looking forward to feeling free at home again.

Since we've been to counseling, I do see H making different choices. This gives me a lot of hope.


Oh, cat, I can relate! I had the depression and a 50 pound weight gain, when I got here. I think they were connected, in that with the depression I didn't enjoy the activities I used to, so I gained weight, and with the weight gain I felt more depressed. I've lost 25 and counting, and identified when I wasn't myself and needed the ADs again. I am glad that the kids see that is a temporary thing, something I can manage instead of letting it keep me down. I am all about the kids, too, but I can do it in more ways now, like family walks and bike rides. More choices, more freedom.

Hi Hold, thanks for the vote of confidence You've been a great inspiration for me, too, with the running and setting goals in your career. And the slogan, "I can handle this!"