I very much agree with Rprynne.

That is what I believe.


But what we do at any given time may not match the behaviors we exhibit at another time. My W never did adultery before her VLTA, so was that who she was then?

I'm not fundamentally disagreeing with you though, because the only things I know about RM are his interference with my marriage - and so I most definitely judge him by his behavior - the affair - because that's all I know about him. Outside infidelity, who knows what kind of person he is? I have no desire 2 find out, of course, because beyond checking for criminal his2ry, I simply needed him GONE. I wouldn't care if he was the spitting image of Jesus on the cross, I would still only have his actions since the start of the affair 2 go by.


I understand this 2, and since Appy is a friend, and we both have had 2 deal with VLTAs, I've been particularly interested in trying 2 understand his perspective.

Yes, there may be no going back. Once someone has adopted behaviors that are destructive 2 their loved ones for such a long time...? But my W is re-engaging in our relationship, whereas his is not.

I don't know if a WS coming out of a LTA can ever fully get through withdrawal. And while I believe my W is progressing nicely, she's not done yet.

-ol' 2long

2long, I just wanted to say that your optimism and love for your W is endearing. I think that is what we saw in you when we met you in person a few years back. A man who has not lost hope.

For me, I see my H battle between the man he became the past 7 years of affairs/lies and the man he WANTS to be. I am hopeful and PRAYING that the man he wants to be wins this battle. If not, once my DD is out of the house I am done.

... it was "closure" ... What's "wrong" with "closure" ???????

Whoever does not believe a person can change, think of themselves on D-day. I think every BS on this board will admit that they changed on that terrible day. In fact i would say fundamentally changed. So i do believe "change" occurs and that Waywards can change.

Since so many have tried to convince me that cheating is like a drug addiction, I'll run with that analogy.

A drug addict is never going to dislike the drug. They might dislike what it did to their life, but another hit is ALWAYS going to sound good.

They may jump through all sorts of mental hoops to keep themselves from falling off the wagon, but there's always a part of them that wants to take another hit. ALWAYS.

I say it's the same with waywards, or even former waywards, if the "addict analogy" is to be believed.

You may never cheat again. You might outwardly express complete disgust for what you did, and towards adultery in general.

But somewhere, deep inside all of you, is a jittery crackhead looking to fire up one last rock.


I do not believe actions are all that matter. I believe intent is nearly as important.

Most BSs have to live with the fact (or mentally block out the fact) that their spouse, if they were allowed to without negative consequences, would still be sleeping with their AP.

As A FWW I do not feel that way. I have no thoughts of contacting or being with AP ever again.

I think it really depends on the circumstances. For my FWW, he had an epiphany in his life that brought him to tell me about the A...otherwise, I probably would never have known about it.

He looked at his mother and realized that he was headed down the same path she took and he didn't want that. He chose to change for his own selfish reasons...not out of a guilt for what he did or a desire not to hurt me. He wanted something for himself that he realized he couldn't have if he continued the way that he was.

I do think that a WS is capable of wanting that fix again...but I think it really does matter WHY they chose to stop in the first place.

One of the things that I have realized is that in order to change, you have to believe that change is possible. Do I watch my H closely? Yes. I will watch him closely for a long time. But I do believe that he chose to change and that it is possible for him to change.

God tells us to forgive, but he doesn't let us forget for a reason. We need to remember. We just don't have to live in constant fear that it will happen again.

MogiSola

During the A (which I didn't exactly know about but suspected), my H told me that he had no problem if I wanted to f*$# other men.

I asked, "You mean it wouldn't bother you if you came home one night and I was banging some guy on the couch?"

He replied, "No...I might watch, I might join in, or I might just go work in the garage."

Hmmm...don't even know what to say about it today and that was three years ago.

MS

It looks like you are relating the addiction to the affair partner, which I thought was incorrect. I thought that the addiction was to the feelings of the WS during the affair.

MB seems to be designed to build a marriage in which those feelings are generated by the relationship with the spouse, so the fix is met within the marriage.

Just speaking in generalities here.

I'm no expert in CBT, but the little I know about it suggests thoughts, feelings and behaviors are interrelated. Meaning, people can change their thoughts by changing their behaviors and people can change their behaviors by changing their thoughts. (feelings too, for that matter).

As a child, I was afraid of the dark. I thought it was dangerous. I would not walk into an unlit room. How did I change that? Well, I might have just walked into the unlit room, over and over until I no longer thought is was dangerous, was no longer afraid. (This is what I think of as behavior modifiction). Or, I might have reasoned out that it wasn't dangerous, which removes my fear and I walk into the unlit room. Or, I might have decided that although it is dangerous, I am confident that I can handle what ever might happen and thus I am not afraid and I walk into the unlit room. If someone wants to call the last two scenarios behavior modification, like I said, sounds fine to me.

But to me, the key point about change is why did I need to walk into the unlit room? This is why I typically trace "fundamental change" to people's objectives. (what do they want, how/why did they decide this, how do they go about achieving it).

I think most people start with the general objective of "I want to get the maximum rewards, with minimal effort." Translating that general statement into a specific statement for an indvidual is what creates so many different personalities. Each person's upbringing or experience alters how they define rewards, how they define effort, how they define the max and the min. Each time an individual changes their specific statement they fundamentally change. Finally, as people learn, experience, feel, grow more capable or less capable, as time ticks by, they change how they define the terms, and they change their specific statement.

I think by default, all of us BH's were with a W, whose objective was to be with us and only us for the rest of their lives, because they thought that would make them happy (or fulfilled or whatever word to describe maximally rewarded) with minimal effort relative to other possibilities. Somewhere, before the A started or at the moment it started, they changed. This was no longer their objective. Greater rewards lie elsewhere, or same rewards with less effort.

But if/when their objective changes to recovering the M, they can change again.

Finally, I don't think change is solely the domain of WS's. I find it a little disheartening seeing a thread proclaiming WS's never change. Not so much because of the impact to BS's. But because its one of the exact positions that WS's use as justification for not ending the A and committing to the M. There's likely a WW lurking and reading Appy's post and saying he's spot on. Nice little act my BH was doing with that plan A thing.

IF the comparisons to drug addiction are accurate:

I think that's like offering a cigarette to a heroin addict.



I don't believe the drug addiction comparisons are accurate, so it's not surprising to me that you feel this way. The idea of cheating being similar to a drug addiction is an insult to drug addicts, and to the intelligence of BSs everywhere.

I see two different slants on this.

The first is that the "behaviors" of a WS is much like the "behavior" of a drug addict. Just meaning that WS's will do mean, terrible, things to maintain contact, just like the drug addict will do mean terrible things to get their drugs.

The second is when someone says OP is like a drug, so infidelity is like a drug addiction.

I have no problem with the first analogy, the second doesn't really hang, IMHO.


I agree. But I do recognize that intent is much harder to observe, so you may have to rely on actions to make decisions.

Frank Pittman said this, which is sort of quasi relevant:


This wayward behavior makes no sense because the wayward isn't functioning "normally". They're addicted 2 their own neurotransmitters. In this sense, infidelity isn't "like an addiction" it IS an addiction. I've been told by runners that they can get addicted 2 the endorphines their brain produces while running. So they have 2 run.

42nately, if there is a bright side, these "drugs" are na2ral, and so perhaps the physical damage isn't nearly as severe as with real illicit drugs.

-ol' 2long

I agree, but not with all of this.

Go to the first sentence and focus on general objective: maximal reward with minimal effort. That general objective is what does not change in WS. That is who they are. Their adultery is simply another manifestation of this most basic (hedonistic, specifically) drive.

Not everyone has such a general greedy, if I may use the word, outlook on life. Perhaps many humans do. WS definitely do. They had it before their adultery, and they have it after.

Many people have never had this, “How can I get what I want with the least effort?” as their general approach to life. And you can bet they won’t suddenly start to have it. But WS have it and keep it. This is not something possible to change with will power alone – it probably requires a brain injury.

WS may change the specifics on how they acquire what they want, how they do what they do. They are changing behavior. They are not changing why they do what they do. They are not changing their basic personality, their general overall objectives in life.

Of course specific behavior can be changed. Behaviors are both preprogrammed and learned. Behaviors can change with enough incentive. Take pain. I used to indulge myself in radical hot dog skiing. I changed my skiing behavior the second time I dislocated a shoulder leaping off a 30 ft cliff. I no longer ski like I used to. But I know I am still the same skier inside. I still want to fly. Only the pain reminds me not to.

Where WS didn’t used to think first, maybe the memory of enough consequential pain reminds a specific WS to think twice before acting on their general objectives and basic nature. Their basic nature does not change.

Err, IMO.

I think it depends how long it went on, and how much intermittent reinforcement has occurred.

Even dopamine changes brain wiring.

2long - we're on the same page. I completely agree with you.

I agree.

Re change:

One favorite quote of mine applies here:

Happiness isn't getting what you want, it's wanting what you have.

That applies 2 my hobbies - I found out while trying 2 distract myself from the hurt after d-day by getting more involved with them, and subsequently realizing that can cause problems itself. More toys didn't make me happier, focusing on what I had in hand 2 work with became more rewarding.

And this taught me 2 appreciate the progress I was making and my W was making - at a different pace and possibly with different specific objectives in mind.

(with 2 meanings here:

Number A: she initially wanted 2 fence-sit and believed she could succeed; and I believed I could compel her 2 change and thus want our M, and get us in2 recovery that way.

Letter 2: well, who knows when her approach changed, if it did, or when I stopped worrying about it, but she's different now (different behaviors/choices? or different person?); I realized that the process was rewarding 2 me, and that in the meantime, (and I knew it was going 2 be a long meantime) I was enjoying my family and what we do/have 2gether.

It still ain't perfect, but perfection was a fantasy anyway, possibly even one that contributed 2 its own demise.

I'm more or less content with how things are going at home. I don't have so many expectations as I used 2, and my hopes are more realistic. I can take or leave this relationship, depending on what may happen in the fu2re. But like this last time, I won't make life-altering decisions lightly, whatever happens.

-ol' 2long

Great post again Rprynne.


I completely concur. Well stated.


I agree with this. But I don't mind really if we call it fundamental change or behaviour change as I stated earlier.


Well that is my fear about rants like Appy's and Pariahs - it's very disheartenng to anyone who reads it and in reality, it amounts to no more than their specific experience. My experience, and that of others here, is totally different.

For now.