Neak,
I sent an email to the mediator yesterday explaining why I think moving back to France is a bad idea at the moment. The main reason is that if I move back I would be putting the children into a divorce situation which I think would be a lot tougher on them. At the moment, I have been very clear to them that divorce is not an issue right now although all is not well. Being in Ireland and going to school here is good for their English and they have already been in the school last Feb for 3 weeks, they will have the same teachers and everyone is looking forward to them coming back. Also for me it is much easier to have other people around to help me with them and it's great to feel cared for. She wrote back to say that she agrees with me and is back on board as mediator so that's good.

My own family is totally on board and supportive but it's just hard to see the hurt in their eyes when I tell them, hurt not only for me but for themselves as they are very fond of him and he has been in their lives now for 20 years.

BR, I am going to see the doctor tomorrow. I never thought about STD tests but now that you mention it, it might be a good idea. I'm sorry to hear all is not well with you at the moment. Is this just a little 'down' in the recovery process? Neak said something a while back that has stuck in my head and bothered me. She mentioned that a lot of energy was required for R. I suppose I was hoping that that bit would be 'easy', as least relative to this Plan A/Plan B stage. If you'd like to point me in the direction of a thread I'd like to read up about your situation. You've been so good and supportive to me, I'm now feeling selfish that I haven't shown enough interest in you.

My MIL is a good person and she is a great grandmother but she is very much a doormat to her hushand and two sons. She believes that, as a woman, it is her role to accept whatever sh/t they might give her and not complain. This is absolutely not my way. Until I gave up work I earned significantly more than WH but we couldn't keep going the way we were with 3 small children and so we discussed things and as he loved his work so much we decided together that I would stop working for a couple of years and then go back later. Our fourth child was an unplanned surprise (and initially, a shock) and so I have ended up not working for longer than we originally thought. As it happens I was quite happy with the children, my writing and my wide circle of friends but that's when I thought WH and I were a team doing our joint best for our family. The perspective has changed now.

Meant to add that WH rang back yesterday. I was outside and came in while he was speaking to the girls on the phone. He told them that he was coming to see them next Sat. The youngest asked him if he wanted to speak to me and he obviously said no. He is incredibly stubborn which won't help him to find the way back to us but hopefully he will realise some day what he is giving up.

Hi tully,

Raven is quite right about the STD tests. If you get them done now and you're okay, you can ask (okay insist) that H has them done before you resume your relationship, once NC is verifiably in place. There would be no risk of re-infection from him, then.

As you say, your H is stubborn and this will affect his ability to open his mind to what you are saying. He will stupidly resist your "selfish demands" and being told what to do and being "manipulated". Mine is the same. Perhaps all waywards develop this trait, even if they do not have it in normal life. However, perhaps by yesterday he had come to understand that you will not speak to him because you have made that perfectly clear in your Plan B letter and via your intermediary. Perhaps he did not say yes when your youngest asked because he knew you would not come to the phone.

I have many times read that Plan B is the EASY time for the BS. You don't have to deal with the person who hurt you. You don't have to NOT LB when you want to hit him over the head with a frying pan. You don't have to meet his emotional needs when that is the last thing you want to do. You don't have to be a loving spouse to the person who forgot all about love when he did what he did to you and the children. Experienced Plan B-ers say that recovery is the hard part; Plan B is much easier.

Plan B is obviously still hard as you worry about the future, miss your spouse and deal with the children's upset.

I'm so glad you are with your family, who love you. I hope things are getting calmer bit by bit for you, and that you have a better day today.

What I said is true, but I don't want you worried, either.

I was in terrible shape and yet managed to drag through recovery by sheer willpower. I can't help but think it would be much easier if I had been recovered better physically before having to go to the next level.

It sounds like your WH is probably not going to crmble instantly, which works to your benefit. Be ready any time, but be grateful for each and very day you have to work on yourself alone. You will do so much better later for having had this time.

Also, by him taking longer, you have a better chance that he's not coming back to you before he's ready. Your chance of another false recovery goes down somewhat.

You're doing great!

Hey there tully,

Not sure what I said to make you think all wasn't well with me...not that it is. I've just been a little down, angry, and struggling like most other BSs here...nothing new. Recovery isn't easy but it still doesn't compare to the worst of the worst of what I went through. I have no thread to direct you to that shares my story. I didn't follow plan A or B and probably would get an "F" for my tactics but me and H are chugging along rather well.

It is tough tully but you have to spend your energy on yourself, M and children instead of making up more lies to cover for H's screw ups. My family was very hurt, angry and disappointed by H's A. My mom and FWH were particular close and she just can't understand how he could be so thoughtless and hurtful...the lies and deception all the while H was smiling in their faces is hard to digest.

Thanks, Neak, I suppose I should worry about R when and if I ever get there. Your comment has given me courage though.

BR, I got the impression that you were a bit fed-up but I'm glad that you and H are coping OK. From reading the Harley material Plan A and B are for coping with a reluctant BS but if you have a willing and remorseful BS then it's probably not necessary. The ripples from this A have spead so far that I am wondering what kind of a life we might have during and beyond R and how it will affect our/his relationships with other people in our lives.

Tully, I'm concerned about your mediator. They don't seem to understand that their job is to *eliminate* emotions and fights and discussions about the relationship from all communications, and to only relay impartial, objective information.

They certainly shouldn't be questioning what you do nor taking sides! Only relaying objective information.

You may need to start thinking about another mediator. This one could wear you out just as fast as your WH.

I second what turtlehead said about the mediator's job. From what I've read in Plan B threads, you should not be hearing from her very much - possibly not at all in the early days. She should only contact you to put a concrete proposal from your H to you. Since he has not sorted out the NC issue - dealing with future jobs, conferences, living in the same village etc. as OW - he is unlikely to have any relevant proposal for you for several days. The offer for him to move out if you move back to France is legitimate, but other than that kind of offer, your mediator should convey nothing of what H says to her until he tells her that he wants to rebuild the marriage.

I've even read of cases where the WS does not know, and never meets, the mediator. The BS chooses someone that understands the role, and all contact between WS and mediator is done by email. It could be that choosing someone that has been a friend to both of you makes her feel uncomfortable, and that she is motivated to try and get you and H back together. That is not her role.

When you were living in France, it was necessary to have someone from the area to help with the hand-over of children on H's visits. Now that you are in Ireland, you could appoint one of your supportive family members to deal with H only by email. When he visits the children, any family member could deal with him and the children while you go out for the day.

First day at school for the children, and your doctor's appointment today. I hope all goes well.

I know I'm harping on this mediator thing... I had a bit of time and I went back to a recent accounting of a discussion between you and your mediator:

Then I spoke to our mediator who, following a conversation with WH this evening, called into question my decision to go to Ireland. WH is very angry (and getting angrier with time apparantly) and is offering to move out of the house and respect my desire for no contact if we move back to France.

GF (the mediator) thought this was a good idea because she thought that cutting him off from his chidren was hard on him and that it might be better if his choice was made between OW and me rather than involving the children. I ended up convincing her that I was acting for the best but it took it out of me. I dismissed his objection by saying that it's only 1 day since we left so his separation is hardly traumatic for the moment. I asked her to tell him that we are all doing fine, the girls are adjusting well, that they will call him tomorrow evening, that he is welcome to come and see them when he wants but that we will not be leaving yet and that he needs more time.

This should have gone more like:
Mediator: WH has offered to move out of the house and respect your desire for NC if you will move back to France.
Tully: We are not moving back until the conditions in the Plan B letter are met.

That should be IT. You shouldn't hear of WH's anger. Mediator shouldn't be volunteering ANY judgment on what is a good or bad idea. You shouldn't need to explain yourself or your decisions to anyone at this point. You've laid it all out in writing and that's all that needs to be said. You need a break from this chaos.

IMO you made a mistake by asking the mediator to tell WH you are all doing fine and the girls are adjusting well. You are supposed to be DARK unless he's committed to NC and recovering the marriage. If he wants to know whether the girls are adjusting well he can by golly call them or come visit them.

I'm not chastising you at all. You are exhausted mentally, physically, and emotionally. Your health has taken some hits. You are doing the best you can and I applaud your efforts. All I'm trying to say is you can take a break now. You should be in your cocoon taking care of Tully. No more need for putting efforts into a WH that is focused totally on himself. Let him stew a bit and then, if he wants to, let him carry the load. You've done enough for now, and you NEED to take care of you.

I second that as well. Every word.

While I agree with everything you both have just said, I also think it's ok to give the mediator one more chance - the one that she's already on.

Tully thinks she's on board now, and maybe she has come to understand what her role is. If not, it will show quickly enough. Even if her friend is not suited to be a mediator, it doesn't reflect badly on her at all. It takes a special kind of person to be a good malarkey filter, and this lady could be very nice and a great friend, and just not be able to ignore the personal attacks.

So we'll see...I also agree completely that if the current mediator doesn't work out, one of those awesome Irish family members would probably handle the job quite well. Often family isn't the best choice, but I'll bet one of those fantastic sisters would be able to do it, and still welcome WH back into the family with open arms when he repents.

I second that as well!

I share your doubts about the mediator, turtlehead, but I think that it's because she is a very good friend and is so keen for us to sort everything out. She also wants to reassure me that she is doing her best and wants to keep me informed. Perhaps I wasn't every clear either about what exactly I was asked her to do but I'm hoping that we are more in phase now.

There was a message from her this evening but i haven't called her back yet. In ways I'd prefer to have exchanges by email as i can better ignore the bits that I don't want to argue about. Not sure if WH has a new propostion.

The first day at school went very well for the girls (it's lucky that they were there before in Feb so it's not dramatically new for them and the youngest is in the same class as her cousin)
And the doctor was a bit concerned about the yellowness of my eyes and sent me for tests but they have mostly come back clear except for a high level of bilirubin and they want to do a scan later in the week to check that out. But i think this is all stress and I will start to feel better as time goes on.

That sounds very good, Tully. I hope she understands the mediator role better and can do it well for you. If not, that would be understandable because as you said she's a good friend to both of you and she wants to see you work things out. She may find that she's too emotionally vested in the situation, and that would be okay - you'd just need to get another mediator. Or she may find that with a better understanding of the role she can express her friendship by sifting the grain from the chaff in your communications.

I also understand about preferring communications via email. Too easy for things to escalate voice to voice. With email you can type out a response, wait a bit, edit it, and then send it.

I'm VERY glad you're having those tests run. You really went on too long trying to do Plan A and waiting for him to come around. I would have, too, in your shoes.

I spoke to the mediator this morning. She spoke to WH last night and she said that she feels that it's as if there are 2 WHs, one that wants to be with us and is adamant that there's no possibility that he can ever lose me because our 4 children will always bond us and the second WH who sees this as a battle of wills and is determined not to give in. In ways I was relieved that he was not making all sorts of promises in order to get us home because I'm not ready to go back yet and I think he needs more time alone to realise what he is losing and what he has risked.

You may be right about waiting too long in Plan A, turtlehead, but I'm now ready to sit back and let him take action in order to get our M back but I'm not sure I would have been a few weeks ago. I hope he does make the necessary effort though.

Your mediator needs to be protecting you from that sort of information, as well.

Unless there is urgent information about the kids, or he claims to be willing to meet your R criteria, there should be absolutely nothing getting through.

Sorry to keep harping on this so much, but it's really important that you be completely removed from his chaos. You've been in the thick of it so long, you aren't able to feel yet how damaging even that level of info is.

Is there any chance your mediator would consider posting on a different area of MB, and we could coach her? She would have somene to vent to or talk to, besides you, and we could help her with her filtering.

You're still doing great.

The mediator should not be communicating anything regarding H's feelings or how she sees H's feelings. Are you calling the mediator or is she calling you? If she has nothing to report in the way of WH accepting your requirements you don't have to speak with her on a daily basis.

How are you sleeping? Are you feeling any better physically or otherwise?

Thanks Neak and BR, I am feeling a bit better. At least I don't have that constant feeling of being on edge and expecting the worst to happen at any time as I did before. I know that he won't knock on the door and it's easy to anticipate his phone calls. And it's great to get the support of family and friends here. I may have to talk to the girls soon and explain that we may be here longer than a week or two. They are happy to be here but they are starting to ask how much longer they will be here.

I will talk my mediator again and explain to her that I don't want any feedback from WH except either of a factual, informative nature or an indication that he wants to commit to our M.