Let me preface this by saying I'm new here, though I've been lurking for awhile. I haven't been cheated on (as far as I know!) and I've never cheated, but I have come from the school that once a spouse cheats, the marriage is over-but reading the stories on this board is causing me to contemplate another way.

With all that out of the way, I would have to say that in Still_Crazy's place...well suppose you, doingfine, were the FWS, and were trying to recover my trust. The only line drawn in the sand that I would be comfortable with is you simply not talking to men we didn't already know unless absolutely necessary. Only speak when spoken to by men, and then only briefly. With women and children, proceed as usual.

Yes, this would require a major change in your habits-you'd have to watch and regulate your natural friendliness and this would no doubt be difficult for you for quite awhile. You may even decide you can't or won't do this and tell me so. I'd then have a choice to make-either live with your decision and somehow figure out how to trust you again in spite of it-or initiate plan D.

And I think this may be what it comes down to for SC. Her husband is unwilling or unable to change his chatty habits despite years of his wife telling him how much it bothered her. So, I think discussion time is over and it's crunch time now-is she going to live with this or leave? I think these are the only options left to her.

DF

"The "friendly towards opposite sex" spouse is filling a need. This is filling an EMOTIONAL NEED"

Yes and the way you describe it, it is an affair. Emotional needs are not to be filled by an OP.

The original poster told her WH to tone it down. And, he should.
There is being friendly and " being friendly ".

If one can not tell the difference then one needs IC. The way I speak to people depends on age, sex, relationship, and a whole laundry list of more guide lines to follow.

If one wants to or does not see why they need to filter what they say and how they act depending on the situation needs major IC.

I know,,,and I am glad you saw my humor LOL

Now this is the answer that I was looking for, this is the ONLY way it would have to be. This is what I was getting at, you can't split hairs with this one. There is no way to set up a boundry with this, H would have to refrain completely from talking to any women he dosen't know.
my point was how this could get completely lost in translation, how does H know what he can and can't do?

The bottom line is then he shouldn't be talking to any women he dosen't know, period. attractiveness, friendliness, toning it down can all be a wide range of what each individual thinks.
All that I am asking and what I have been asking from the begining is, if this is a boundry that a S wants set then there has to be a guideline that can followed with some reason. How would one S know when, who and how he can speak to someone? My H and I discussed this very thread when we were at breakfast this morning, the waitress asked if he wanted more coffee, he is a polite person, he smiled at her, said no thanks and thanked her for asking, I realize its not the same situation, this women spoke first, but could I misconstrue his politeness as flirting? he smiled, he thanked her twice, would I be justified in telling him I don't want him to smile at the waitress's anymore and one thank you is enough, and believe me when I say I am in no way, making light of a situation, of this posters situation nor making fun in any shape way or form, I am learning to.

DF for me anyway your scenario is NOT what my H would have done and I would not have considered you H's (nor mine if it were my H's) comments "flirty" and is something i would say myself because as i stated before i too am a friendly person.

My H however would have not only said what your H said but would have added some “joke” of some sort. And depending on how attractive the waitress was what the “joke” would be. If she was attractive it would be some sort of a “joke” to get a response from her.

So I agree with Pep and the others who say he is trying to get his need for “admiration” met by these other women.

Even though I “think” I meet his need for “admiration” all the time. I do this by telling him how “sexy” I think he looks, how good I think he is at his job, what a good father he is, what a good husband he is, all of these sorts of things. And I “try” to do this on a daily basis.

He has never completed the ENs questionnaire, but he did read it and told me that I do “great” at meeting his ENs. Some how or other I find this hard to believe or else he would not be seeking the attention of other women. At least that is what I feel he does.

If he won't take the EN questionnaire , perhaps he will go over

LOVE BUSTERS with you link


Selfish Demands
Disrespectful Judgments
Angry Outbursts
Annoying Habits
Independent Behavior
Dishonesty

What if this isn't about you? What if this is about him? What I'm trying to say is what if there is some hole in himself that he is trying to fix with this? What if there is some deep hurt that he tries to make better by being friendly with other women? Your meeting his EN's won't fix anything.

You are assuming it's you. But what if your husband is speaking the truth..that you do meet his needs? What if there's a part of him that's broken that only HE can fix?

IRN this is TOTALLY possible and i agree that he could be speaking HIS truth. But where does that leave me?

It bothers me when he is "over friendly" with other women, he feels he is NOT "over friendly". How do we meet somewhere in the middle so that we are both happy with things.

THIS:


.... is a CLEAR example of a love buster.

The entire MB program hinges on both persons working on NOT being a source of unhappiness for our spouse.

Negotiating is the right approach.

If you both buy into the MB's approach you discuss meeting each other most important EN's and you eliminate LB's. You also recognize that it is a process to change bad habits into good one's that support these goals.

The MB's approach can be used if you are in agreement on the principles or goals of marriage. The MB goals of marriage are to create a lifestyle that is good for both of you, to avoid being the source of each others unhappiness, and become each others greatest source of happiness. Can you both agree to these goals?

His quote that he is ok with and knowingly knows it causes you unhappiness strikes a chord with me that he isn't in agreement on the goals of the marriage. Right now, he expects you to sacrifice in order for him to be happy and you and your taker are insuring you don't sacrifice for his happiness. Though, I'm sure it is very possible for him to be happy and for you to be happy at the same time. It comes down to understanding each other and the implicit expectations, principles and goals, that you are both playing by. I'm also sure he can take some time and really think through and understand what he is really getting out of these instances and why it is important to him. Then you can negotiate so it becomes good for both.

Work with him on agreeing to the goals of marriage. Making sure you are expressing your points of view and not criticizing the other or making the other feel like they are wrong. Respect the others point of view and negotiate through to common goals. It will give you a foundation to build from and work on changing the bad habits as you will then both recognize that it isn't in harmony with your agreed upon goals.

In my personal case, my husband didn't believe his behavior was damaging to us. But, his thoughts/behaviors stemmed from low self esteem and self medication. I tried to get him to see my point of view. Many times, in many ways. Truth was, he couldn't, until he healed himself. When my husband was able to understand he did have worth, he was able to recognize some of his behavior as LBs, actually, without me saying anything.

All I'm asking is if there may be some underlying issue your husband hasn't dealt with yet. And until that gets fixed, negotiating may not work.

Where does that leave you? Boundaries. You can have boundaries to protect yourself. To keep yourself safe. Until he gets it. Or to keep you safe if he never does get it. What would happen, if you insisted that he treat you in a manner that will make you feel safe in the relationship (through your behavior)-rather than made this a point of negotiation?

I want to thank you all for all of your replies.

I have decided though that i no longer want to recover my marriage. I just am tired of wondering all the time if or when it will happen again.

I know that my life will not be any easier and probably more difficult but i am just tired, too tired to even try to fight for it anymore.

SC

SC ((hugs)) honey are you really sure this is what you want???

If it is then I wish you all the best!

That is your choice, SC. IF that IS what you want, then have at it.

But we, or at least most of us who are in the "Betrayed Spouse" side of the equation understand the "I'm too tired to keep on trying to recover from what HE/SHE brought into our marriage," AND for those of us who HAVE made it through to "Recovered" would simply like to say that "tiredness" is normal but is NOT the "end of the journey."

Please consider that the Recovery process IS long and it DOES have times when it seems as though "no progress" is being made.

But "giving up" over this perceived problem of his "flirtiness" is a "Temptation" to end the marriage over something that does NOT have to be a permanent situation.

Recovery IS a lot of work, emotionally and mentally. And it IS what the BS "signed on for" when they CHOSE to recover their marriage, in much the same way as they CHOSE to marry in the first place "for better or for worse...."

Take a break. Give yourself some time, say a week or two, to NOT deal with "recovery issues" and just "exist." Then come back and evaluate TODAY's decision to see if it is still how you feel or if you might just be reacting emotionally to a perceived problem that COULD be changed.

God bless.

Thanks F-26

FH this has been going on for 25 years and maybe it "could be" changed but he does not see things the way i do, so i do see it as a "permanent situation" which i am no longer willing to deal with.

I think it is always good to see a person willing to walk away from poor/lack of care.

Marriage is about a committment to care. It is not simply about committment. Each person needs to be committed to care for the other. Being committed to not being the source of the other persons unhappiness. To care.

To just be committed without care is to be reinforcing behaviors that insure more of the same thoughtless behaviors where one gains at the others expense.

Negotiation isn't about win/lose. It is about win/win. It demonstrates care. Each marriage has unspoken rules/principles that we play by. As long as you except win/lose in your marriage it is what you will get. Why would the other person ever change? They have it made and they definitely don't demonstrate care.

Keep going step by step and believe in yourself and focus on the principles. All else feeds from this and when there are gaps the path is clear.

Still,

I am sorry to see where you are right now, but perhaps for you it is where you need to be, your reality vs. what you want things to be.

Is your FWH in sales? Seems like this need for attention is a characteristic in that profession.

Also, if I remember correctly, you have another complication with your finances. Have you spoken to anyone yet?

I spoke to our attorney about this and the debts are divided by who is responsible. If both parties are on the debt, then both are still responsible.

Let us know how you are doing and what your plans are.

Best,

BA

BA good to hear from you again. Hope things are going better for you.

My H is NOT in sales.

Our debts are both of ours and are being paid through the courts at a 50/50 split.

This is kind of what i am waiting for, we voluntarily surrended our home and are waiting until the foreclosure goes through to move.

My plan is to go our separate ways at that time.