I hear a lot of anger and pain in the remarks by those who do not see an A as an addiction, but simply sheer selfishness. Having taken both views along the way, I understand the reasoning -- and the anger and pain -- in both ways of looking at it.

Maybe viewing it as "addiction" allows some BSs to carry on with their plans to reconcile. You know, think of the WW/WH as in over their heads, even if it started out as a selfish act. Because if they looked at it as a deliberate attempt to destroy them, they would be left with nothing to hold on to if they want to try to salvage the M.

Before I found MB, it really seemed to me that my H had lost his mind. The crazy, out-of-character things he was saying and doing left me with no other explanation.

Does it matter what we call it, once we are recovered? Do we NEED to keep our anger alive by dwelling on how "selfish" our WS was? Hard to forget it, yes, but not productive to keep that thought in the front of our minds.

Wholehearted agreement here. It is definitely NOT an addiction in the sense that it absolves them of any responsibility.

The way I understand the terms "fog" and "addiction" is that yes, the WS is *not* thinking clearly -- they are swept up in their fantasy. That much is true.

But its fully their fault that they are in such a state. In Biblical terms, they are willfully "suppressing the truth in unrighteousness." They are responsible for it, they put themselves in that situation.

But at the end of the day, they are still stuck in a mode of wrong thinking, even though its of their own doing. They really do need help to get out of it. And the more they indulge it, the "wronger" their thinking becomes, and the easier it is the next time.

Correct! Addiction does NOT erase responsiblity or blame - the WS is STILL responsible and still to blame for the affair...As I said, it explains it, but it does NOT excuse it...

Mrs. W

If a person is taking steps to HIDE their actions, they OBVIOUSLY know it is wrong. If adultery were a crime...and it should be...it would be considered a premeditated act in the vast number of cases.

One and done...while drunk...okay, not premeditated. Engaging in an affair that goes beyond a one night stand while drunk...premeditated and NOT the result of an addiction IMHO.

I think we probably agree, we're just getting hung up on the word "addiction," which we're interpreting differently.

Let's call it something different: how about a self-inflicted seared conscience? Its their fault they're destroying their conscience by continually doing what they know to be wrong.

But in the end, their conscience is still seared, which DOES make it easier and easier for them to do what is clearly wrong, and start to even justify/rationalize it in a way that makes sense to them.

Yes, agree...Alcoholics and drug addicts also HIDE their actions and KNOW what they are doing is wrong...Doesn't change that they are addicted...Doesn't excuse their behavior...I think the problem here is that many view saying "addiction" absolves the "addict" of responsibility and it does not...


Oh I'd still say they were RESPONSIBLE for their actions though...Loose boundaries of getting drunk with the opposite sex w/o their spouse present is a pretty big amount of selfishness and thoughtlessness, isn't it?

Mrs. W

No, it doesn't change that they are addicted. However, these are real addictions...with real withdraw and not just pouting over a lost "toy."

I don't think an addict is in any way absolved from complete responsibility. I just KNOW in all my time here that people make choices to be with their affair partners...they are NOT driven by some chemical that is any different than those present when you consume chocolate.

And bottom line is...the FIRST time someone dropped to their knees or dropped their drawers...there can be NO claim of an addiction.

This would be considered a premeditated...intentional act.

krazy, I don't think you have the slightest idea what an addiction even is and that is the source of your misunderstanding.

For example:
This is your own misunderstanding about the nature of addictions. YOU have said it takes the blame off the WS. This is YOUR own misconception, and no one elses. It does NOT take the blame off the WS. It does not take the blame off the alcoholic. It does not take the blame off the dope head.


More misunderstanding about what an addiction even IS. Addiction is not defined by puking or cold sweats. HERE is the def of an addiction:

WordNet - Cite This Source - Share This addiction

noun
1. being abnormally tolerant to and dependent on something that is psychologically or physically habit-forming (especially alcohol or narcotic drugs)
2. an abnormally strong craving

another misconception:


No one ever said they WEREN'T clear headed and very aware of every decision. YOU SAID THAT.

In short, krazy, you are making false claims about the addiction and then rejecting it on that basis. That is called a STRAW MAN ARGUMENT. None of the attributes to which you assign to addiction are EVEN TRUE.

As a recovering alcoholic I will tell you that the addiction of adultery is just the same. Saying you know better just because you have drank and used drugs does not qualify you as an expert on addiction. It is ridiculous to say you know about addiction just because you have drank.


So, you might not believe it, but anyone who has experience or expertise will easily refute your claim. Your claim is not based on any experience, facts, logic or evidence - theirs IS. The experts will tell you it is REAL and recovering addicts will also say the same thing. Former waywards who have nothing to gain by lying will also agree that it is an addiction.

Dr. Willard Harley, clinical psychologist with 35 years experience and former owner of a chain of treatment facilities for alcoholics:


I just want to emphasize the following FACTS about the addictive nature of affairs:

1. affairees are 100% responsible for their affairs.

2. affairees are fully aware of their decision to commit adultery

3. an addiction is not defined by puking, etc but by an abnormally strong craving

4. defining behavior as addictive DOES NOT MEAN THE PERSON IS NOT TO BLAME

And as far as the "fog" goes, it astonishes me that anyone can deny the existence of FOG after they read the wacked out, loony logic of waywards on this very forum. These people are practically retarded. The reason they are so nuts is because they live in a state of altered reality because they have to bastardize reality to justify their crimes. How any sane person can deny they are nuts is beyond me. We have whole threads of the loony stuff that waywards say. So, the rejection of FOG just amazes me.

If I needed money, I could rationalize robbing a bank. Doesn't mean I will do it though.

People that make choices that an affair is more important than their family or spouse KNOW full well what they are doing. They are just making the choice for evil.

I'm not getting hung up on the word here. I just do not believe it applies...I believe that it is used here to allow people to look at their wayward spouses with a less critical eye. It is just an extension of people not taking full responsibility for what they CHOOSE to do.

People who claim "I wasn't myself" during their affair:

Yes you were. That cheater was always there, waiting to come out. The fact that that facet of your personality only manifested itself for a relatively brief period doesn't mean it was "out of character". It only means that it is (or was) a deeply-buried part of your character.

You may not be comfortable with that, but it's true. Part of you, even now, is a cheater, even though you may never let that part of you call the shots ever again.

You can't pawn it off on brain chemistry if you're being honest with yourself.

AGREE!! They BECAME addicted AFTER they crossed the line to commit adultery.

And I will add that many waywards ARE NOT ADDICTED at all. They cheat as a matter of character.

addiction (-dkshn)
1. A physical or psychological need for a habit-forming substance, such as a drug or alcohol. In physical addiction, the body adapts to the substance being used and gradually requires increased amounts to reproduce the effects originally produced by smaller doses. See more at withdrawal.

this is what I consider an addiction.

Isn't there some writing on the stages of an A. By the time they drop their drawers they are already in the addiction.

It was the insidiousness, the patience, the cunning and the baffling of the disease of addiction that waits for the right opportunity.

I am not saying they don't make a choice, I am not saying that they don't have responsiblity, I am saying that the consequences and the ability to stop far out weigh the options once the addiction/chemical reaction or whatever has taken over and it starts LONG before the act does.

so, therefore, 100% of people that commit adultery are not addicts. Some of those that CONTINUE in adultery are addicts???

Anything that changes your perception of yourself can become habit forming because it feels GOOD and you want that feeling to keep on going, regardless of the consequence.

An A changes your perception of yourself.

sorry, not buying it.

The affairee KNEW it was wrong when he crossed whatever line he crossed to get him to that place. I seriously doubt he was addicted when he crossed that LINE. Even so, the addiction does not mean it was any less of an INFORMED CHOICE. They willingly made that choice to cross that line.

The act of crossing that line was premeditated and made while fully AWARE. Every action they take AFTER the addiction takes hold and fog is in full swing is made on the same basis. An intentional, aware choice they know is wrong.

YES. I believe that 100% of adulterers consciously CROSSED A LINE before they were addicted CAUSING a state of emotional addiction.

They had to ENTER THE AFFAIR first in order to set up an addiction.

Just like alcohol. How does an alcoholic become an alcoholic? By drinking! I was not an alcoholic the first time I drank. I had to drink A HE!! OF A LOT to become that way.

And you KNOW that these feelings don't exist in an affair, how...because?????? It's not a "real" addiction because???????? It is a FACT that brain chemicals are released in LARGE amounts during an affair...

Trust me, withdrawal is very, very, very harshly, scarily real and horrible...(not said to get sympathy - I personally think the WS deserves to feel like that.)


Of course they make choices to be with their affair partners...they WANT that HIGH...they are ADDICTED to it...
How do you KNOW this about chocolate? A guess?

Look, I LOVE chocolate, but I can assure you that the feelings that go hand in hand with an affair are a FAR cry from how I feel when I eat chocolate...I've been there MEDC, I'm telling you that it IS different...I lived it...I'm ashamed of it, as you know, but I have been in that gutter...I have first hand experience there, the addiction factor is REAL...



Yes of course it is intentional...You intentionally WANT those feelings...You will do anything to get them...Selfishly, thoughtlessly...Yes, you premeditate HOW to get those feelings...You plot, you plan...deviously...for sure...

I'm telling you, the problem here is that there is a real misunderstanding of what it means to say that an affair is an addiction - or really just a general misunderstanding of what addiction means...Again, it does NOT lessen the blame or the responsiblity of the WS...It only explains the COMPULSION to CONTINUE the affair...No excuses...explanation only...

Mrs. W

I think I read once that some people due to genetic make-up were predisposed to alcoholism. Some people didn't have to drink a lot before becoming addicted to alcohol.

I just don't buy into the addiction or fog argument. I sincerely believe it is a concept to help the BS get past the horrible choices that their partner made.

I think we will need to agree to disagree here.