So, here's my story in a nutshell. Married 13 years this summer to a man whom I respected, who was my best friend and a wonderful lover. He was great with the kids, too. Over the past two years, we seemed to be growing apart, but with two jobs and three kids, I thought that was life and approaching middle age.
I found out this past June, by his admission, that he had been unfaithful since February. He said he ended it and wanted to work on the marriage. I was devasted, but knew in my heart that we could work through it -- we had worked through everything before.
We started counseling; I lost a ton on weight; summer was hard on all of us; but I thought we were getting through. He let me check out his phone constantly; seemed to answer questions willingly.
Then it seemed to change. I asked him about a trip and had he seen her (oh, no, of course not or just briefly in the hall). I hadn't found your site yet.
Things continued to deteriorate for no apparent reason -- we were both in individual, had started anti-depressants and were still in couples. Finally, he said he thought we were over (on the way to counseling) and that he wasn't in love with me and didn't know if he ever had been. Again, devastated and confused.
He moved out; kids are a mess and I am trying to figure out everyday this seemingly crazy scenario. I felt crazy.
I found MB and so much made sense, but he had ended the affair and said he wasn't seeing her, so I wondered what was going on with him?
Then it happened -- I stumbled upon the email account he had been using to communicate with her the entire time. Boom. He had never broken contact with her; it was all about their sex and undying love. If I hadn't read MB first, I probably would have died reading it, but I knew that most affairs think that they are the most unique lovers out there. This time I was more prepared.
I confronted him; let him know he was not welcome at the house or to see the kids until I figured out what steps I wanted to take next and he had to end contact with her.
I emailed proof of the affair to their bosses (they knew each other through work), my WH's housemates (who had no idea), talked to my family and shared the truth of the matter.
His response was anger, shame, defensiveness. I was initially elated because I finally felt like I knew what was going on.
Later I just felt sad about how much he had hurt us all and how he was not the man I knew. Later I read all the posts, which I think just ended up hurting me more, I don't know.
He ended contact, but reluctantly, and said the marriage would have ended anyway.
We both spent some time with family and have tried to communicate, but I feel like I am trying to convince him to end the affair (which I have asked for, but I have a very hard time cutting contact with him.
I have a lot of support, but they all seem to tell me conflicting things. When I read MB, I'm like "this is what I am going through!"
I'm so confused and torn, but I miss him so much, but I am repulsed by what he has done!
My kids are devasted and I want to make the best choice for me and them.
Help.....

Me: 37
WH: 39
Married 13 years; together 15
kids: 12, 11, 4
known about the affair for 4 months; had 6 couples sessions; known about whole affair 1.5 weeks.

Welcome to marriagebuilders. It is a great place to be under the circumstances.

Your starting point is Plan A with no love-busters. If he really isn't in contact with the OW, then he should go through withdrawal and be over her. Then he will be more receptive to you.

Do they still work together? Because they can't have any contact at all.

Is OW married, if so have you exposed to her H? You said you exposed to your family, does that include your WH's family as well? How do you know he's ended contact?

Thanks for responding -- so no love busters, huh? Thats where I get confused! Is that me giving what he wants (yes, we should end the marriage) or just working to treat him kindly, but stick to my request of NC and ending the affair. And then wait? I worry that I have contact where I go back to telling how much he has hurt me and it sets me back and the process back!

Her long-term boyfriend found out first and wanted to tell me, but she talked him out of it (I found out from the email). My WH knows and they are devastated and have made a lot of efforts to support him not ending the marriage. Nothing seems to make an impression on him, but again, he was only fully exposed 1.5 weeks ago. Since that exposure, he has had one email contact with her (per his statement)-- he told me and his mother, who is supportive of the marriage, but really I have no idea.
This is where I get confused. He agrees to no contact, for now, but continues to insist that our marriage would have ended anyway and he loves her and will not deny his feelings. Is this the fog? Do people make relationships in the fog?

Your husband's affair is going by the book. I have a lot of hope for the two of you.

Plan A is where you start - no disrespectful judgements or angry outbursts. You show him what a great wife you can be and that you are the more attractive choice.

You DON'T agree to divorce, or that you want to leave him.

You do the wifely things, show him you care, and that you believe the two of you can get through this. You let him know that you don't want a divorce, and that contact with the OW is very hurtful to you.

Work on the things that he complained about before the affair.

No, you don't give him whatever he wants.
Love Busters are specific behaviors that fall into categories. There is a link in my signature - read it!

When we say you should avoid love busters we mean you should not have angry outbursts, engage in independent behavior, you shouldn't be dishonest, and some other specific behaviors. Some love busters are easy to identify (angry outbursts) and some are very difficult (disrespectful judgments). Read about them and learn about them. Eliminate them from your behavioral repertoire.

I think you are confused about NC.
No contact is not no contact between you and your WH. It is NC between WH and OW.

You are allowed to tell him how much he hurt you. That is a true statement of your feelings. What you are not allowed to do is love bust - that is, you can't say "You don't care about me" as that is a disrespectful judgment. You can say "I feel like I have been punched in the gut. I feel like I cannot breathe. It hurts me so much to think of you talking to her."

You should also read about Emotional Needs (ENs). Then try to figure out what his top three are and do your absolute best to meet them.

I would expose to OW's boyfriend and OW's parents. Do not warn him that you are going to do this, just do it. He will be angry but the more light that is shed on this affair, the better. Just be prepared for his anger. He may say things like "I was going to come back to you but you've ruined any chance of reconciliation now!" or "How can I ever trust you again?". That last is one of my personal favorites, by the way. Just ignore his rantings except to say "I love you and I am committed to doing whatever it takes to save our marriage."

I would also put a key logger on the PC and if he has a cellphone start checking the records online. Do NOT tell him you are doing these things. They are just to let you know if contact has truly ended. If he tries to blow sunshine up your skirt by saying he's not talking to her any more, you can look him square in the eye and say "You and I both know that is not true." Don't tell him how you know it's not true. Don't get into an argument with him.

For now:
Expose
Avoid LBs
Meet ENs
Do not fight with him, do not try to educate him

thanks for your insights. I have expressed a lot of hurt and anger and often in love busting ways. That is definitely something I work on. I'm not sure if he'll fill out questionaires since he says we are done, but it's worth it. Should I even ask how I could show how much care now? That's got to be a different answer than he would normally be.
He does not live at home and I do not have access to his phone or the gmail account.
We do have a counseling appointment on Friday, but I'm not sure how much she supports exposure, NC or even us staying together.
We' ok just have to see, but I can definitely stop love busting and stop trying to educate him. If I can locate contact information, I will contact OM and OW's family.
Thanks...

So sorry you're here but you have found the BEST place for help. I kid you not.

MC while there is an active affair (or withdrawal or no commitment to recovery) is a waste of money. Most "marriage" counselors are really "divorce" counselors. Can you afford to call the counseling center here on MB? They offer direct, to-the-point COACHING sessions. If you can't get your WH to speak to them, then YOU call them first and they will help you get a plan. They're a little expensive but from what I've heard, worth every dime.

Oh, and whatever you do, Do NOT tell WH about this site!

I sent a link to this previously, not knowing at the time that he had never ended the A. His response was he wasn't going to move out of state! I'm pretty sure he won't be checking it out anytime soon. I'll think about calling in. I will see what happens in MC Friday. I don't have huge hopes, but I haven't gone in there witout LB yet, and I'm going to try that for real.
Thanks for the responses-- it helps so much!

No way he would agree to move back in?? At least for the 3 kids??

For him to move out on the 3 kids at their ages, kind of says huge amounts to me about his character. Or am I wrong?

The fog is what keeps the addictive relationship going. The fog is what keeps him away from his children.

kirk

I can ask, but he is adamant that the marriage would have ended anyway and that he can't deny his feelings for her. He plans to get an apartment this weekend. He comes over often to help out, but that has been up and down depending on what I may or may not have recently found out.
His moving out does say a huge amount about his character, but its also so unlike him. Everyone is blown away and that seems to reinforce his logic (i.e., the husband and father everyone knows would never do this, so he must really be in love and really not love me)!
I'm not sure if I am at plan A or plan B -- He just seems so determined and rational about his steps, that I start to think wow, it is completely over, our marriage must have been awful for him and then I spiral down.
This is the hardest thing I have ever faced.

I just spoke to OW's mother, she was hugely supportive and, of course, had been told the affair was over also. I have left a message with OW's previous boyfriend (the one who she cheated on with WH).

Good job on exposing the affair. Now that you've started, keep doing it. As long as he will be angry, might as well get it all done.

Your husband is saying and doing the same things they ALL do. Don't take it to heart. This affair will end like they all do. Start a good Plan A.

bf,

You're doing all the right things.

I'd add only one piece of advice for the immediate future: Pay no attention to the goofy logic or the hurtful things he says. He is "foggy," which is MB-speak for temporary insanity. There are brain chemical reasons for it, and you can look it up if you like, but it really doesn't matter.

He is NOT himself. He CANNOT hear your reasoning, your logic, your pain--or anyone else's as long as he is neck-deep in this stupid affair. This is, most likely, a temporary situation, although no one can tell you how long it will last.

Try not to absorb any of it. Just keep doing the best Plan A you can. As long as you can. And keep posting!

RHW

Thanks for the advice. That is the biggest struggle for me to not react in hurt and anger every time he talks about what our marriage was or is. Do most WS sound so sure? This summer he waivered a lot more. I got a lot of "I love, married you" kind of stuff but by the time he decided to move out, he stopped an of that. Of course he had started seeing her again at that point.

Him: I never should have married you.
You: Hmmm. Have you seen that new movie?

In other words, do not take what he says to heart. WS are NOTORIOUS for rewriting marital history. Just concentrate on what YOU do and what YOU say, for now.

bf,

Yes. Most waywards are that sure. Until they are just as sure about something else. Their world is a roller coaster too.

Think about it as him having drunk the kool-aid. It's racing through his veins and making him loopy. Nothing is what it seems...he's kinda hallucinating and those visions seem real to him, moment to moment. And that's why he says things that make no sense. You can't see the hallucination in his messed up mind.

That's why you've got to brush off the crazy things he says. It's what we call here "fog babble" and they all do it. If you don't recognize that, you will be yanked around so much you will believe YOU are going crazy, and it won't help you one bit.

Watch what he DOES. Forget what he says. Once you're recovered, he won't remember most of it anyway. (I know this for a FACT.)

RHW

Thanks again, all the support keeps me on track. I really do feel like Im crazy and so do our family members who are supporting me. Should I ask them to read MB too, so they know what I'm doing? I hear a lot of "move on, he says it's over, you are in denial, etc..."
A lot of people in my life are counselors and seem to have given up. Am I really fooling myself? Do I come here to stay in denial? This has helped couples right?!!

If the other people who are counselors in your life are family or good friends, they might not be bringing their professional objectivity to the situation. Keep that in mind.

You are not crazy. Anyway, YOU are the one who gets to make this decision. Nobody else. I'm sure you can come up with a handy comeback for well-meaning folks who tell you to dump him.

How about, "I appreciate your concern for me. I've decided to do everything I can to save my marriage, and I'll know when I'm done trying. Till then, I'd love to have your support."

I'm sure others have come up with even better responses. Maybe you'll get some.

I never needed to do this because every single friend and relative supported me in my efforts to bring my FWH back to our marriage. I consider each of them pure gold.