When I was single, I met this man. He noticed me (doing my job) and contacted me and asked me if he could take me out. Now, he was a fair bit older than me at the time but at the time, I didnt think that mattered.

I said yes and he took me to dinner. It was a really lovely dinner and the conversation between us was fantastic. I felt really at ease and comfortable with him and strangely attracted to him.

Towards the end of dinner, he told me that he was married with kids. He said the marriage was not a real marriage anymore and that they just lived together for the sake of the kids.

Now, I was in a very vulnerable stage in my life, but even being in that stage I knew this wasnt something I wanted to get into. I told him that I appreciated his honesty and wished him good luck with his persuits but told him I was not interested.

He was very gracious about my response and said that we would be good friends. I didnt think he would call me again after that but he did. Initially just as a friend.

After a while his calls became more flirtatious. Over the years there were moments when I gave into the flirtatiousness but that was the extent to which it went (let me clear up - no kind of sexual relations whatsoever).

I knew that he always hoped that Id give in one day and I guess it cost him nothing to keep trying.

When I met my fiance, and told this man (as a friend) about it - he was very negative and discouraging about the relationsip. He told me there was no way it would work and that I was crazy to pursue it. That, my now fiance, could never make me happy.

As time went by, I fell very much in love with my fiance and we are now engaged.

This man still calls me - and this is the problem I'm coming to you guys with today. I KNOW I'm doing the wrong thing by picking up his phone calls. I believe that I'm encouraging his persuit of me. Of course I have no intention whatsoever of giving in At All - but perhaps I just appreciate/like the extra attention (note my fiance is an abundant source of attention - so NONE of this is his fault).

But I feel really guilty about what Im doing. I know I should not pick up his calls but I dont think I can do that. PARTLY because I dont want to be rude to a man I have cultivated Something of a friendship with - and partly because it's partly my fault that he keeps trying and so what right have I got to cut him off and treat him like its all his fault?

Im feeling a bit down about this at the moment.

Hi LaFire,

Thanks for dropping by. I am going to try very hard not to sound judgemental so bear with me here.

I would respectfully submit to you that you know this flirtation/contact with this married man is inappropriate both for you and for him and his family.

How would you feel if your husband-to-be was doing exactly what you're doing and when you confronted him he said "oh, it's just harmless fun"? Would you perhaps feel unimportant at best and disrespected at worst?

How do you suppose his wife would feel if she found out?

Do you think you're the only other woman he engages in these interactions with?


It's simply a habit that you have - you like the attention and it makes you want more of it - at you fiancé's expense. Tell your fiancé that you don't think it's appropriate to continue this friendship any longer.

You probably wouldn't agree with me here - tell his wife what is going on as well. I guarantee it will stop, and he'll go back to his wife and improve things with her.


Yes you can. That's why you came here - to help you do just that.

All smokers know that they really should quit. It's the right thing to do but not the easy thing to do.


Something of a friendship? If you were engaged before this friendship developed, and both you and your fiancé knew exactly how the friendship would end up, would you have let it develop?

Really?

It's playing on your conscience and preventing you from reaching the next level of intimacy with your husband-to-be. Do the right thing and end the friendship - with a letter.

Do it - and tell your fiancé why. You'll reach a new level of trust and intimacy and after a period of weeks be very glad that you did.

Best wishes,

GH31

I would respectfully submit to you that you know this flirtation/contact with this married man is inappropriate both for you and for him and his family.

Oh you don't need to put that proposition to me - I've put it myself in my original post.

How would you feel if your husband-to-be was doing exactly what you're doing and when you confronted him he said "oh, it's just harmless fun"? Would you perhaps feel unimportant at best and disrespected at worst?

If my fiance confronted me with it I would not say "it's just harmless fun". I'd never say that. If I thougt it was harmless fun I wouldnt be here, would I? If he confronted me I'd apologise sincerely and explain why the situation came about (ie ive been reluctant to put a complete end to his attentions because I like the attention sometimes) and see what he had to say about it .. and I suspect after that my friendship with this other man would be completely over - if it ever came to that.

How do you suppose his wife would feel if she found out?

I honestly don't know. Ive asked him about this and he says that she knows "how he is". I dont know if she realised "how he is" or not but to be honest - I think if his wife found out she'd be happy that I told him no when he put the whole affair concept to me, and have never gotten intimate with him - and the most its been is flirtatiousness. If she still had a problem thats something for her to take up with him. I think I have a responsibility to her, as a woman, not to sleep with her husband, not to engage in physical intimacy with him and not try to take him away from her. As for flirtatiousness - I expect other women in the future will be flirtatious with my fiance - I wouldnt hold that against them to be honest - I'd simply expect HIM to be careful with how HE interacted with THEM. (And I dont mean that he shouldnt be flirtatious at all - but that he should be careful about it and watch the boundaries).

Do you think you're the only other woman he engages in these interactions with?

What gave you the impression that I thought that? Of course I don't. In fact I know I'm not the only one because he's told me about the others. Do you need to be the ONLY one a man pays attention to in order to be flattered by the attention? If so you'd never ever be flattered by a man's attention, would you?


You probably wouldn't agree with me here - tell his wife what is going on as well. I guarantee it will stop, and he'll go back to his wife and improve things with her.

What do you mean by "go back to his wife"? He's with his wife. He's in the arrangement he likes best. A wife to have a family with and women he enjoys going after.

I'm certainly not going to tell his wife. I wouldnt do that to him and I wouldnt do that to her. There's a difference of opinion here about what the "best" thing for her is. Some would say they would rather know. Some would rather live in ignorant bliss. I dont know which she would prefer. I can't betray someone I have something of a friendship with.


Something of a friendship? If you were engaged before this friendship developed, and both you and your fiancé knew exactly how the friendship would end up, would you have let it develop?

Really?

But I WASN'T engaged (or even in a relationship) before the friendship developed. So whats the point about talking in hypotheticals? It is what it is. I don't think its the morally ideal position - and thats why I'm posting here.

It's playing on your conscience and preventing you from reaching the next level of intimacy with your husband-to-be. Do the right thing and end the friendship - with a letter.

Huh? Until a month ago I would have described my relationship with my fiance as near perfect - minus the sex (we were both virgins - for reasons that had nothing to do with intimacy!) but since a month ago that's no longer the case - so I'm certainly not being prevented from reaching the "next level" of intimacy with my fiance.

You know if this is you trying not to be judgmental I'd had to see what you'd be like without any restraints on.

Be honest with your fiance about your inappropriate EMOTIONAL AFFAIR....that IS what you are having.

End ALL contact with the OM and tell him to NEVER contact you again.

You are acting like an immature child. Time to grow up and act like an adult. Your first step...and I DO commend you for this...was coming here. NOW, do the honorable thing here and tell your fiance and get the OM out of your life.

Also, since you WERE propositioned by the OM, you have a duty to inform his wife of all that has happened. Apologize for your terrible behavior and then move on.

You should have ceased all contact the moment he told you he was married and he made an advance to you. Regardless if you were single at the time or not. He isnt.

I would also tell your fiance as a M should be fully open and honest and should hold NO secrets from past or future.

It takes a lot to come here to be on the WS side. But this is very easy to achieve on what you ask.

"What do you mean by "go back to his wife"? He's with his wife. He's in the arrangement he likes best. A wife to have a family with and women he enjoys going after."

Is that what would make you feel good?

"I'm certainly not going to tell his wife. I wouldnt do that to him and I wouldnt do that to her. There's a difference of opinion here about what the "best" thing for her is. Some would say they would rather know. Some would rather live in ignorant bliss. I dont know which she would prefer. I can't betray someone I have something of a friendship with"

Would you rather live in ignoratnt bliss?

"I don't think its the morally ideal position - and thats why I'm posting here."

Well, if all you are willing to do is defend what you are doing, then why bother posting at all. Either you want to end it or you don't. That's it -- period.

Oh LaFire, you truly ARE playing with fire. And you're gonna get burned. Your choice, but we're trying to help you prevent that, if you will only get past your justifications.

How do you justify giving your fiance NO choice in the matter? Keeping him in the dark about this ongoing feel-good tasty treat you're enjoying in private. What he doesn't know won't hurt him, huh? Yes. it. will. It will blow up in your face, and his, if you continue this.

You think it's justified to keep this married man because he was in your life BEFORE you got engaged? Kinda like a pet dog? WHAAAAT???

You KNOW this married man is a womanizer, and still you're "flattered?" Apparently it doesn't take much to impress you. If you can be so cavaliere about an emotional affair when your romantic love level is at its highest, what is your poor fiance getting into?

It's plain to us here that you are behaving foolishly, and we know it WILL come back and bite you (and your poor husband to be) in the a$$.

It's about HONESTY. And you're not getting off to a very good start...

I'd like to remind you what you posted on Sunday to BPL on another thread: I am so sorry to hear that. I don't have nearly enough experience to offer advice but I think it's awful that she doesn't realise how lucky she is to have what she has and I think she's very silly to risk losing it all.

How is your case different?

So you being that said... This situation is what is BEST for all involved.

1. Your fiance whom you say you love needs to know EVEYRTHING
2. You need to stop contact with OM
3. The OMW deserves to know what type of guy he really is. Regardless if hes happy in his M or not. She deserves to know.

I sure OM has filled your head of how his W is etc that she doesnt do this or that. And unless you have seen or talked to the OMW then you wont know if that is how she really is.

You come here to seek advice. We are giving it to you. If you do not like the advice that is given then obviously we hit the spots we needed to. If its not what you want to hear turn the other ear and walk out the door. But dont come here ask for something and then go against what is being said.

Your Finance deserves to know. And so does the OMW end of story. Till then you are in the EA till you do what is being said to you. Read on here about EA's if you say its not an EA then it should be no problem to cut off the OM.

OM's wife must be told, however, I think you may need to make one more call to OM for the purposes of documenting and recording his transgressions to protect yourself AND to help OM's Wife get and accept the truth.

Without...it will just be your word against his and he'll likely snow his wife on some cooked up story about you chasing him and he ended it so now you are just bitter. You two never did have sex so he can honestly answer that part. Even worse...often the best defense is a good offense...he'll come after you and your fiance with a completely different version of reality. You can bet on it. So,...if you are lucky and skillfull you'll get him to divulge the truth and maybe other marital indecrepancies.


Record this (with these goals...document that you haven't, yet, ever had sex with him, that he's tried to have sex with you for years, when and where you've seen him over the course of your emotional affair, and, if possible, that he's had other affairs on his wife):

You: "I was thinking that after all these years of being just friends and with you constantly pursuing more...just maybe, before I get married, we should consider consumating our friendship...what do you think?

Him: That's a great idea.

You: "It could only be one night...r u ok with that"

Him: you betcha

You: "Problem is, though I'm not married yet, you ARE. For just one night it isn't really worth it, is it?

Him: "Our marriage sucks, it's loveless, etc.

You: "That said...you've still never actually cheated, have you...I mean it wouldn't be worth becoming an adulterer for only one night with me, would it?

Him: "My wife knows" or "I've cheated before"

You: "I don't believe it...with WHO??" Come on you can tell me...I'm sitting her considering having sex with you and you're going to hold back that...come on, tell me.

Him: I've had many affairs

You: really. Well, I've got to run....I'll talk to you tomorrow.

*You could take it a step further and arrange a meeting for, say, Saturday night at some local hotel...then, saturday night, take the tape to his wife, apologize and tell her listen to it and that her husband is in room 145 at the Motel 6 waiting for you and you aren't going.



Then...it's undeniable. It may be tough to see this but you'll actually be doing HIM a favor. He sounds like a miserable lonely guy. What you find sexy and attractive about a man such as this says a lot about your insecurities. He's a lying dog. His wife has no clue what he's up to and he will turn on you with extreme prejudice the instant you start speaking the truth. With proof, their marriage stands a chance at recovery, without it, it will just prolong the agony and lying for BOTH of them.

Mr. Wondering

MrW,

From what I can see, this young woman couldn't care less about any moral obligation to someone else's marriage. Heck, she isn't showing any to her own, and she isn't quite married yet!

I think the far more important issue is to show her how her secret emotional involvement with any man besides her in-the-dark fiance is hugely disrespectful to him and to any marriage they could build together. Without that basic understanding, she will never care about some other woman's marriage, rights, or anything else.

Until she stops deciding to claim all the power and all the rights in the marriage she's getting into, she (and her fiance) are dead in the water.

But "she can handle it."

sigh

RHW

Well, the way out is clear.
If you are too weak to do the right thing you have no business getting married.

I'd say she'd be doing him a big favor not to marry him until she can get herself prepared for what marriage IS.

Marriage is NOT continuing a long term EA, much less keeping her fiance/H in the dark about who she really is.

I would think her future H would have grounds for annulment if he ever found out. The grounds being that she was incapable of making such a commitment. She had no idea what the words "love, honor and cherish...forsaking all others" meant when she said them.

LaFire, would you consider postponing this marriage till you can eliminate all other men from your life and your intent is to keep it that way? And to show your real self to your fiance, whose heart you will break if you don't get yourself ready for marriage?

Hello everyone!

I have read most of the above messages and I really appreciate everyone's concern and the time taken to write them.

I also appreciate all your points of view. I can see from some of the signature blocks that many of you have experienced failed marriages and therefore may have some valuable insight into the area.

I also see that many of you have been victims of infidelity which is very sad and I'm sorry you have experienced that.

All that said, I'm afraid my definition of infidelity is very different to yours - I don't count occasional flirtatiousness in conversations as "infidelity" and certainly don't think of myself as a "WH" or the man as a "OM".

I also don't think we have an emotional affair as I don't share much of myself, emotionally, with him - and certainly far less than I share with other (female and male) friends that I have gone to uni with, worked with etc. So I definitely don't characterise it as an emotional affair.

I'm afraid I don't view flirtatiousness in the same way you all might view it.

But the thing is - my problem as I see it, is not the flirtatiousness - it's the flirtatiousness in combination with the fact that I know that this man really wants to sleep with me.

My fiance does know that this man chases me and I did tell my fiance a couple of weeks ago that this is partly my fault because I continue to take the phone calls.

So its not quite the web of deceit and lies that some of you may worry it is. When youve had bad personal experiences its easy to start seeing the world through very tainted lenses and i really hope you guys arent in that position because it doesnt lead to much happiness for youselves or the people around you.

So coming back to my problem - it's not the flirtatiousness that bothers me - its the way that encourages his goal - which is to try and sleep with me. In one way it is a bit like playing a game (I believe it's never going anywhere but go ahead and keep trying because it is a little flattering, and he believes he'll get me eventually - and the game is who ends up being right) - and thats what bothers me - A big part of me doesnt want to play games (especially if there's any risk to my fiance's happiness) - but the other part of me is stubbornely insisting that nothing will go wrong and noone will get hurt.

Anyway I have resolved to try and avoid contact with this person (there are extra facts that complicate my ability to cut him out altogether - work/industry related facts) so I hope I'll be successful.

As for telling his wife - that's just not my business. My responsibility to her (as I see it) ends with my not having a physical or emotional affair with her husband - taking the further active step of informing her of all her husband's misdeeds is not my responsibility as I see it.

Oy! :RollieEyes:

lol hi Raven.

You are not that sorry b/c the guy you are friends with has definately cheated on his wife. I just hope the tides don't turn and you are in the betrayed wife category down the road.


Look around here and see how many "flirations" have led to infedility. In fact, that is how about 99.9% start. Read how many betrayed spouses get the, "we are just friends". You won't view flirtatiousness as we do until you become a betrayed spouse.


If you read the Harley materials and the posts on this site, you will realize, we are not looking through tainted glasses. Affairs are extremely common and almost all of them start with 'flirting' and "we are just friends."

Do you honestly think that you are the only one that has played this game. How do you think everyone here got hurt? But you know nothing will go wrong and no one will get hurt. Send your fiance to this site so he can prepare for what he is about to be put through!


This is the first sane thing you have said. Good Job. Now just quit trying and make the no contact happen. Do it for you fiance's sake and your upcoming marriage. Please.

Just remember, what comes around goes around. I hope you are not the one living in ignorant bliss down the road. I won't lie and say I am not trying to be judgmental. You sound just like all waywards on this board, yet you are the 1 of 55476 that is different. I hope I have knocked some sense into you, at least for your fiance's sake. I would hate to see him here.

OK. So it's not an emotional affair. You're just hooked on the game of "tease." You ARE aware there are names for women who do what you do?

If it's so friggin' harmless, why have you not told your fiance the full extent of it? (And don't tell me it's because it would hurt him. If it would hurt him, it's NOT harmless!)

And you simply can't eliminate this wonderful, two-timing, dangerous to your upcoming marriage man entirely from your life...work, ya know.

SOUNDS LIKE WAYWARD BABBLE TO ME.

In Black Raven's words... OY.

Lafire, do you not feel INSULTED that this man pursues you? You seem to be flattered and that is what puzzles me here. His pursuit is not flattering, but highly insulting. Do you understand WHY this man pursues you? I assure you it is not because of your dazzling personality. It is because he thinks you are an EASY LAY. A cheap piece of fun.

He thinks you are so immoral that you might entertain a romp with him. He thinks there is hope that you might have some fun with him even though he is married and you are engaged. And you are flattered?

For you to be flattered by that is shocking to me. He is insulting you and you are oblivious to it.

A married man is not interested in anything else. He would never consider leaving his wife for you or taking you home to his momma. He would never take you around his children or his family. And you are flattered? what is wrong with you young ladies? Do you have no sense?

Hon, his contact is an insult. It is a slap in your face. So, for you to be flattered by this means you are naive about his intentions. If he had any respect for you or for woman in general, he would not pursue you.

LaFire, I would also suggest that your fiance has a right to know that you are not very mature about the advances of other men and want to be liked so badly that you would permit a married man to pursue you. The fact that you would let a married man pursue you tells me you have much growing up to do. YOUR FIANCE HAS A RIGHT TO KNOW THIS.

This is a vulnerability of yours that he should be aware of before he marries you. If you are this silly over this situation, you have maturity issues that need be considered by your finance in his decision to choose you for a wife.

I know that my son would rule you out as wife material and so should any other man with a lick of sense. Your finance has the right to do the same.

Woah - hold on there. I certainly am sorry for anyone whose been through the experience of having a partner cheat on them. But it's very possible to be friends with a man who cheats while at the same time feeling sorry for his wife's position. People have a myriad of different qualities - you can like a person for a bunch of great qualities they have - and still feel sorry for the people in their lives who suffer due to the other qualities they have.


I'm happy to accept your proposition that most affairs start with flirtatiousness. I'm happy to accept that there are many relationships that involve affairs (statistics vary on this but in my country its just less than 50% which is huge). But I'm not happy to accept that every person who flirts ends up having an affair. I don't think Im 1 in 55,000 but I do think its fair to say I'm 1 in every 2 people that can flirt without having an affair.


Why do people insist on putting the words "I'm the only one who.." in my mouth? I'm sure it's a common "game" that people "play" all the time.

I don't "know" nothing will go wrong - nor do I profess to "know" that - I believe on my assessment of myself that the chances are good that nothing will go wrong. But a "good chance" that nothing will go wrong still leaves too much, in my eyes, of a chance that something will go wrong - hence my concern.


Look I'm not entirely sure that I'd always want to be told. It would depend. Should it happen (and I actually don't believe it would for a second because I do trust my fiance's character more than any man Ive ever met - and for good reason) - but should it happen - whether Id want to know or not would depend on many things such as whether there were real feelings involved, whether it was a one off etc. I dont think I could assess the situation as a hypothetical right now and honestly know if I'd want to know in every case.

But I do know that Id expect my friends to have some loyalty towards me and not betray the friendship by interfering in my relationship so I can definitely do this man that courtesy.