KA smacks forehead, shouts "Great Scott" and wracks her brain for a word picture here that the Senator might understand:

Are you taking the leap from coaching admiration to coaching enabling of a mental illness??? Is this really what this discovery has led you to? You are right about one thing - no reasonably sane woman would EVER venture onto this path. It's fraught with mystical mind reading and other maritally destructive expectations.

You must take responsibility that if you do have NPD, YOU must change, NOT HER!

So word picture here, Senator:

It's Halloween so indulge my observation of the multitude of children in the neighborhood looking for the biggest haul of sugar! Imagine you have a child with an insatiable appetite for candy - lots of candy. But this is no ordinary child. This child was diagnosed with diabetes when he was 10 months old. And he has to have injections every day.

Now - you are the parent. You feel badly for the little tyke - so you on occasion have snuck the lad a miniature candy bar on occasion - just a bite really. But instead of being satisfied, his appetite grows even more.

It's part of the illness of diabetes. Just because he wants something that ordinarily in small doses would do him no harm, because of his illness, he cannot have even a small piece of candy.

That's the comparison. Now don't get sidetracked into diabetes vs NPD. The word picture only draws a comparison of the harm something that normally satisfies emotional needs can be harmful to health and wellbeing.

If your wife were to meet the expanded needs of an NPD husband, your illness would grow, not diminish!


This would not only creep me out if my husband did this, it would drain my love bank so incredibly fast. You're keeping score! If not literally, openly in front of her, in your heart you are! That's not a marriage. That's a contractual trade agreement that has no meaning and no fulfillment!

I have a feeling that you think you know your wife's emotional needs are met and satisfied by the status you provide. How very NPD of you.

I have reviewed a list of 45 books that have come up under Narcissistic Personality disorder. I am taking steps to get one of the books. Any recommendations on books or articles?

Dr. Harley's approach has been to find out the needs of your partner, and try to meet those needs. For Admiration, some spouses may need very little, and some may desire a lot.

One question being raised, is if an NPD spouse has excessive needs for Admiration, should there be an exception to Dr. Harley's general principle, of trying to meet your spouse's needs?

Is giving an NPD spouse praise, like smoking another cigarette, in an attempt to stop smoking?

I presented my idea for a Super Ego boost to my wife, for exaggerated quality Admiration. She seemed to understand the concept, and had no major objections, so far.




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Senator - I would say that Marriage Builders is premature. The NPD must be addressed, with a diagnosis if appropriate and then corresponding behavioral treatment. If you can recognize the NPD patterns of thought, and then deliberately choose another line of thought that you have chosen specifically to counter ego-driven "world revolves around me" attitudes, you can beat it!

Dr. Harley himself counseled me over an issue with my husband's bi-polar disorder. He told me that we really could not effectively meet each other's needs during an active addiction, or untreated mental illness.

He recommended that we work for specific recovery behaviors individually - my husband toward balance instead of polarity, and myself toward not enabling his illness-driven behaviors and needs.

We really didn't start marriage building until 2001-2003. Before then, we understood about love busters and emotional needs, but he wasn't in a place to do much more than that. If you read Kasey's early posts on this board, his posts were all about trying to get me to meet his needs, rather than seek out what my needs were. There is still one emotional need that to this day he cannot meet. I don't thrash him about it. I simply encourage him taking the necessary emotional risks to grow into that. I meet the need for myself in the mean time.

None of this can really be found in a book. For my husband it came from working with two different therapists, and a lot of work within the 12 step methods, as there is a step by step process for changing behavior and attitudes.

If there is a true diagnosis and your wife would like help she could get in touch with me through the moderators here. I truly wince every time you ask for suggestions of us to help your wife. I don't know if it is because I've been there, done that before my husband started his recovery process, or empathy for what she must go through every time you bring home a book or something to help her "get it" that she's not enough for you just as she is.

When the time comes that you want to protect her from that kind of message, it will show in the questions you ask here and I will cheer for the two of you, because you will truly be on the path to a happy life together.

I have not read your posts on other threads, so I do not know which of your Emotional Needs you have decided to meet yourself. Raised my curiosity, if you are willing to share.

I am getting some positive responses from my wife and daughter, still moving in what seems to be a positive direction.

"My wife enjoys the social status of having a husband who can command respect from her family and friends.
That is why my wife won't leave me, not because she Loves Me, but because she knows she cannot find anyone else to give her an uncommitted marriage."


I agree with Cat on this one. I also sense pain in this statement, that you honestly feel your only worth to her is your ability to command respect from family and friends. I think this may be why you are so unwilling to let go of it and that you're here because you'd like to know from her that there is more to your marriage than her respect of you for this 'gift'. You'd also like to know that there's more holding you two together, such as admiration.

I'm a little confused about why Senator thinks this is an uncommitted marriage. Would appreciate hearing further explanation on that statement. Is it uncommitted because she doesn't express admiration well? Is there an affair going on? Please explain if possible.

I would prefer a feeling of committment from my wife, to me, personally, in additon to a committment to the household, the children, the grandchildren. Consideration of what I like to eat in her shopping, cooking, freezer/refrigerator space.


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I assume your wife does all the grocery shopping? How about agreeing with her that you'll write special items that you would like on a list that lives on the refrigerator.

From things that you've said it seems like you feel that she doesn't show love and caring for you in the way that you would like. I realize you've received a lot of advice on how to consider other things she does as showing love, but perhaps you need to think about respectful ways to ask for what you'd like.

My dh likes chocolate icecream and beernuts. (Not to be eaten together!) I often forget them, but he reminds me every so often so I can hunt them down.

Would you like her to make your favorite meal: "Honey, I luuuuuuuuuuuv your chicken fried whatever. Could you please make some next week?"

Have you tried this yet, or have you asked and been turned down?

I agree that timing is important. Also not asking too often, or too persistently. Also asking in a nice way.

So as I start to ask for Admiration, in various ways, I may make the error of asking in a pushy manner, or at an insensitive time, and I would need to take responsibility for rejections.

I have received rejections, over this time, and I try to take the initiative to appologize, and otherwise give space.

But the issue of my finding better ways to meet her underlying needs can be discussed, when rejection occurs. Rejections can be put to an advantage for a deeper understanding of her needs.



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My husband and I have this understanding, I guess. I ask him if he needs anything at the grocery store before I go, most of the time, and other times he will just tell me what he needs. Usually it's soda or toiletries that I am not aware of because we don't typically share a bathroom. I don't think this is out of the ordinary or asking too much.

I suggest you consider each of your needs singularly rather than as a whole and try to find ways to tackle each effectively with her. How you get her to fill the need of being more thoughtful with grocery shopping, is not necessarily how you find a way to get her to fill another need. Don't try to do it all at once.

The idea of keeping a running list of what you'd like at the store on the refrigerator is very simple and seems that it would be doable for most people. However, that won't be enough, because she will need to be asked to pick up these things. How does this sound to you?

"Honey, I'm having a hard time remembering the things I need or would like at the store each week, so I'm going to start keeping a list on the fridge. When you go to the store, do you think you could take that list and see what you can pick up for me when you go? I'd really appreciate it if you would."

Just see how it goes. I think if you just concentrate on trying to find a way to fulfill each other's needs one by one before going onto the next, you won't feel so burnt out about it. It's a lot to take on, this responsibility to try and fill another's ENs, so be patient with yourself as well as her.

If one way doesn't work, ask her what would make her more enthusiastic about fulfilling that need. Is there something she wants in exchange? Are you asking in a way that she finds offensive? How could you make it more pleasant or at least less unpleasant for her to fulfill the need?

Can you elaborate a bit on her committment (or lack thereof) to your children and grandchildren? What is bothering you about this?

Are you having an affair?

Is your wife having an affair?

Cat is asking some important questions. This is something that really needs to be established now.

Can you answer them honestly for us, please?

I agree that those are important questions, and facts.

I have already stated that I am not hurting my wife, and continuouisly looking for ways to be more effectively loving.

As the issue turns, my requests for Admiration or an Exaggerated Ego boost, bring to light my wife's feelings of conflict.

So the issue to me, is whether my wife wants to be nice to me. Whatever the reasons, pro or con, this is a question for my wife to answer. My wife seems to feel that the less kindly she treats me, the better she is championing her intersts, and the interests of the children.

Certainly I could snoop around more, and ask more embarrassing questions. If my wife is ready to set me free, and relieve my sense of obligation to our children and grandchildren, is a question. If she has found someone better, I feel I can move on. I am not trying to hold my wife back. But I don't think she has thought about all she is throwing away. It is like an attention disability. My wife sees small parts of the pictures, and generalizes from the selectively small sample. My wife has trouble seeing the overall picture.

The children are starting to understand the equation that my wife is putting into operation.

Maybe it is unfair of me to call my wife's bluff, by asking for Admiration and exaggerated Ego Boosts. Cat may be right that the love I would like from my wife, may not be attainable, in this marriage.

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"I have already stated that I am not hurting my wife, and continuouisly looking for ways to be more effectively loving."

Okay, so we have to assume you are not having an affair, never had an affair, emotional or physical, and therefore are not hurting her in that way nor ever did.

"My wife seems to feel that the less kindly she treats me, the better she is championing her intersts, and the interests of the children."

Interesting. She's acting like someone with fear-of-intimacy or abandonment issues - like someone who has been deeply hurt and/or disappointed in the past.

Jeez, you MUST be a real senator. You haven't answered directly a single question that we have asked you yet.

So...you think, or know, she is having an affair, I take it.

And you don't seem too interested in looking inward to see what YOU can change to get her to come back to you? Is that it?

I was thinking the same thing Cat - that was an answer Bill Clinton would be proud of.

Senator - why don't you promote yourself to President?

One of the ways I use to resist the tempation of an EA, or otherwise, is to avoid discussing my wife with other women. That way, I don't say anything that can be viewed as a complaint about her. I have confided, in the past, with a sympathetic ear of some woman aquaintance, and found that sets up a chain of the other woman thinking I may leave my wife. So I talk about my complaints about my wife on a forum, confidentially.

So posting here, is part of strategy for my personal fidelity.

I suppose some husbands get their needs for Admiration met outside the marriage. I was just trying to work with my wife.




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Could be he's a State Senator not a U.S. Senator. If it's US, it's Hagel, Harkin, or Hatch. Unless it's Akaka or Inouye from Hawaii.

Hi Senator H,

I wanted to say this, so that it was said. You have not answered yes or no to whether or not you are having an affair.

To me, that means you are having an affair, more so, because you stress you are not hurting your wife, instead of adamantly stating that you are not having an affair.
If I am wrong, I apologize. But here it is:

If you want your wife's admiration, you have to be a man who deserves admiration. You have to be a man of integrity, who honors his commitments, his fidelity and loyalty, and who doesn't run around with other women. That is not admirable. Running around with even just one other woman is not admirable. You can rationalize all you want, trust me, I've been there, but sex outside of marriage is violating your vows. You have not shown yourself as deserving her admiration if you are having an affair. If you are having an affair, none of these marriage builder principles can help you, because you are violating their very foundation that makes them viable.

And, by the way, just so you know, a woman knows when her man is loyal to her, when she has his heart. If someone else is feeding your ego (through your having an affair), don't think your wife doesn't know something's going on. She knows. She feels you withdrawn from how you would normally be giving her attention if you weren't shagging some other woman.

Lying isn't loving. What someone doesn't know can hurt them. Your wife deserves to have full honesty from you about your behavior, and not only is it not loving for you to withhold telling her if you're having an affair, it's also condescending, belittling, and invalidating to your wife. She is an adult, not a child. If you don't want to hurt her, then don't screw around. Be a man who's fully integrated, not person who lies and connives and basically tries to get away with how much he can get away with.

Lack of integrity is not attractive or admirable. Career success in itself does not inherently come with admiration from others. True admiration comes from having integrity and honor.

You will have lost her admiration and respect even if she has full knowledge of your affair and seems to be ok with it. Why? Because you will have shown her that you can't control your sex drive to the point that you're running around outside of the marriage. It's possible a woman could devalue herself enough to the point of not setting healthy boundaries and saying no to the husband running around on her. But in any case, don't look to get her respect. Humans become mere animals when they act reactively like them, giving in to every urge. Proactive people who fight for something higher are those that often receive admiration and respect.. Having an affair doesn't qualify.

Senator, if this does mean you are not engaging in an EA OR a PA, then it indeed is admirable. In fact, if I were you, I might just tell your wife this.

If she is hurting you by having an EA or PA, do you want to know what YOU can do to change that?

I think I remember the name was a reference to being an NHL Senators fan.