http://www.chsrf.ca/mythbusters/html/myth17_e.php



But the government, and its propaganda arm the Canadian Health Services Research Foundation, DON'T want to address the REAL problem…SUPPLY and AVAILABILITY of PROVIDERS of healthcare. No, they'd rather attack the "private sector" alternative to Socialized Medicine as "poaching" Doctors from being "only" available to the public socialized providers of healthcare. They see it as a "zero sum" issue at best, because they ADMIT by taking this position that providers MIGHT JUST CHOOSE to go where they can earn more money while providing healthcare.



While they "quibble" about "how long the ACTUAL wait might be, they are tacitly ADMITTING that there IS a lengthy WAIT for services.



No kidding!?! IF you don't increase the SUPPLY of providers, WHAT do you THINK will happen? And these folks are IN CHARGE of the healthcare delivery system?!?!?



Gee, I wonder how the WAIT TIMES compare to the USA system of healthcare in the PRIVATE sector? We already KNOW that the wait times in the VA (government run) healthcare system are LONG, just as they are in Canada.


I guess that's why the Prime Minister of Canada went to Cleveland to get HIS healthcare needs taken care of rather than WAIT on the Canadian system.

If HE couldn't get seen in a "Timely Manner" by HIS system, what are the rest of the poor peon citizens of Canada supposed to do?



No kidding? SUPPLY and DEMAND seems to be working FOR the providers, and guess who winds up suffering because of the "meddling" of the government that thinks IT "knows best?"



Now let me get this straight… 10 WEEK wait times to get treated is a GOOD THING?

Oh those bad, bad DOCTORS who saw patients QUICKLY in the private facilities. Just look at how they made patients of the public facilities wait longer than the "customary" and "acceptable" wait time of 10 WEEKS.

They should be "ashamed" of themselves!



Ya, it's terrible that EXPERIENCE shows the COST of healthcare DOES go up with age and various conditions.
And those AWFUL things called "emergencies," they CAN result in admission to the hospital, especially since they can be so expensive to treat. So why NOT go the public hospital where the care is FREE and they CAN'T make an Emergency wait?



HERE is the REAL reason for all their propaganda and arguments. It IS a "supply" problem.

They see it as an "either/or" problem and not a "both/and" solution.

AVAILABILITY of healthcare practitioners and services IS the BASE PROBLEM.

WHY would people want to keep entering the system (especially Doctors) without the "incentive" of being able to practice when, where, how they think they should and be compensated for the service that is provided according to their choice instead by mandate and restriction of the Government?


Ahh….the old "blame the doctors" routine. DON'T look at your system that LIMITS the earnings of the Doctors, or that limits the SUPPLY of Doctors, just blame the Doctors for being "greedy."



How's that "Feature" workin' for ya, Canada?

10 WEEKS, 26 WEEKS, …???

What does NEED have to do with it if you CAN'T get the care or have to wait long enough for the "problem" you seeking care for to become an even bigger problem, or maybe even DIE while waiting?

Nice philosophy, I think most of us would agree. But there is NO "free lunch." We all wind up "paying," either monetarily or in waiting time, or even both. But we DON'T get "right now" treatment under a Government run, Single Payor Source system, and Canada, England, Australia, etc. ALL have PROVEN that with their EXPERIENCE.

And now the USA wants to join this MESS???

http://www.chsrf.ca/mythbusters/html/boost2_e.php

REFERENCE-BASED DRUG INSURANCE POLICIES CAN CUT COSTS WITHOUT HARMING PATIENTS
June 2005

The Issue: Rising drug costs


My, my, consider the "unfairness of it all." Drug companies are NOT supposed to be able to recover the costs of researching, tesing, and bringing to market NEW drugs (obviously the argument being made here is that the "old drugs" are "good enough, who needs new drugs?".

ONE THIRD??? Oh my, you mean that the increase of 400 percent instead of 600 percent CAN'T be "explained away?"

So much for controlling expenses again....oh well....back to the Taxpayers again. The government answer to everything.




Wow! A begrudging admission!



Hey Einstein! PEOPLE DO react differently to the same medications. THAT's WHY each patient is monitored for "Response" to the medication and why Medication changes are often made.

"Inappropriate use of limited (Read: government) funds" my kazoo! DICTATE to the Doctors what to prescribe. Practice medicine yourself, Mr. Bureaucrat, without a license and with an accountant at your shoulder. By the way, did I mention earlier about the 10 WEEK wait time that is so "cost effective?"





Too bad if the generic "just doesn't work as well, or at all, for your given condition. The government run systems can "dictate," but they really don't care.

You are set in your opinions so I won't bother to argue with you but I do have to respond to a couple of points.
This is anecdotal, but the longest I ever waited in an emergency room was 8 hours with my then 8 year old son who had slashed his hand open and required stitches. By the time they called us in, they were concerned that too much time had passed. This was in Maryland - last I checked part of the US - and we were on private insurance. I have never waited nearly that long in Canada.

Now I know our system isn't perfect and there is PLENTY of room for improvement. BUT:
At least we CAN get the care and it is available to ALL of us, not just the wealthy. People die in the US all the time - it has the highest infant mortality rate of any industrialized nation because people simply can't afford treatment.

And regarding prescription drugs, they are not covered under our universal health plan. However, prescription drugs are much cheaper here - so much so Americans come over in busloads to get their prescriptions filled here. Regarding generic vs. brand name, that's typical of most insurance companies that provide prescription drug coverage.

Ok I'm just jumping in at the tail end of this discussion, I haven't been following along, but the subject caught my eye and when I read this anecdote, I just had to reply.

I could tell the exact same story, with just a couple minor changes: change the age to 4(?) years old instead of 8, change the gash to the forehead instead of the hand, and change the location to Ontario instead of Maryland. I'm not sure how long we waited, I think it was not quite 8 hours but it was so long that it was a concern whether too much time had passed.

My experiences with the Canadian health care system have not been good, and I lived in Saskatchewan for 5 years and I've spent summers and Christmas breaks in Ontario for the past several years. There was an incident in Saskatchewan where a toddler who was burned accidentally with a curling iron in a beauty shop almost wasn't treated because her mom rushed to take her to the hospital and left her purse with I.D. at the shop, and they were from a different province (Alberta). I've heard horror stories of folks who are given x months to live unless they get an operation, and the waiting list for the operation is y months, where x < y.

Canada does not have a single tier health care system, although that is their goal. Canada has a two-tier system. Those who can afford it and need treatment with a long waiting list go to the U.S. and pay big bucks for it. That means the rich have access to health care that the poor do not.

And if the rich did NOT seek treatment outside of Canada, the already-dangerously-long waiting lists would be even longer. So the government doesn't have much incentive for trying to keep those patients inside Canada.

It is my understanding as someone without a health care card in Ontario, that I must pay cash up front before being treated. Yet I know that in every city in the U.S. there is supposed to be health care available to the poor and indigent - without any means of paying AND EVEN WITHOUT I.D.

In other words, even ILLEGAL aliens can get treatment in the U.S.


And I would say the exact same thing about the U.S. At least ANYONE can get treated, even without I.D. It may not be the best treatment that money can buy... but the same is true in Canada. Only the rich get the best treatment that money can buy, and they go to the U.S. to get it.

And it has been my experience that if you are without the correct provincial health card, that you can't get treatment unless you pay cash up front. As a LEGAL alien in Canada I have less rights than ILLEGAL aliens in the U.S.

That's why there's a brain drain - a lot of the best Canadian doctors were moving to the U.S. the last time I checked. In fact when I was calling moving companies for when I was moving out of Saskatchewan, they all thought I was a medical doctor leaving Canada to go work in the U.S. for higher pay.


Ditto.

Tabby...I was so hoping you would chime in and I was going to make some of the same points.

The "long lines in Canada" is merely propaganda that has been fed to us for a long time by the healthcare machine.

Even if there were lines, at least people die with hope waiting for treatment as opposed to the many hopeless Americans that are dieing at home (if they still have one) because they can't afford treatment at all. Sure...at one time...this was low class people that didn't work and didn't save and merely mooched off the system but as the private healthcare industry implodes in upon itself (as the banking and auto industry are also doing now) it's no longer just those people. It's WORKING people. It's proud people that don't want handouts but find themselves sick, either through catastrophic events or lack of primary healthcare.

What is it about having money that entitles me to jump to the front of the line anyway? I don't jump to the front of the line at the movies or at the bank because I'm wealthier. This is one of the reasons calling me biased doesn't work...I can easily afford the current system and still don't think it's "the best" or even adequate.

The current system is unsustainable. Tweaking it in order to protect the profits of insurance companies at the expense and misery of the suffering isn't feasable. It's time to patently change the system, remove the middle man and make medicine, once again, a lucrative & esteemed profession instead of a racket.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - Canada's loss of doctor problem likely has continued it's trends for 2004 & 2005 where they experienced a net gain through 2008 (though the numbers don't appear available yet) because our system is collapsing. Once WE go to single payer, Canadian doctors will likely head back to Canada as it's a nice friendly country where most don't even have to lock their front doors...ever. Their medical graduates will also likely choose to stay in Canada versus heading to the US. Canada's problem of net doctor loss to the US will be solved when their hospitals don't have to compete with US for-profit healthcare which simple pass/shove the costs of over-bidding and over-paying for physicians down through our insurance premiums. Before you tell me that I should move there if I like it so much, that's NOT what I am saying...I'm saying CANADIAN doctors are likely proud of THEIR country of origin and will go back to Canada once the playing fields between the "systems" has been leveled.

Jayne,

The "emergency room system" of providing care to the uninsured is collapsing in the US.


Here's just one source.

Danger...America's ER's are closing


Even this level of "care" which lets Americans sleep better at night, has become unsustainable.

Mr. Wondering

Ok somehow I think I'm arguing against people who I generally agree with, but I just gotta speak up because some of these things just are not true.


This happens in Canada too. The rich go to the U.S. for treatment. And if they didn't, the poor would be even harder up because the lines would be even longer.

The rich in Canada pay the taxes for the heath care, and when they go to the U.S. they are freeing up those resources. It may not be fair but it does benefit the poor.


For the most part I would agree that Canada is friendly... but I've had some extremely bad experiences. For some reason a lot of Canadians think it's fair game to rag on Americans whenever they encounter one. I don't find that Americans start saying how horrible Canada is every time they meet a Canadian. I don't find that Canadians feel free to say how horrible Great Britain is, or France, or Morocco, or South Africa, whenever they meet someone from those countries. Just when they meet Americans.

I've found big-city East coast Canadians to be every bit as unfriendly as big-city East coast Americans can be. Have you ever gone through customs in the Toronto airport?

I've had my (U.S.!) passport stolen two times. Both times were in Canada, along with my wallet, money, all other I.D., and in one case my leather jacket, cell phone and a bag of groceries.

Canada does NOT have a monopoly on nice.

You could be right, my experiences are at least a couple years old. But I don't think you can make a blanket statement that our system sucks and their system works. Their system would be pretty jammed up if there wasn't treatments available to the rich just south of the border.

And I really don't get how Canadians tell everyone how nice they are and how rude Americans are... as they are just meeting an American. THAT is rude. When I meet someone from a different country, I don't start telling them how horrid their country is!

I can't even sit down to a meal with my in-laws without them ragging on the U.S. I have a SIL who is from another nationality and culture, visibly from a different culture, and her culture is treated with respect and interest.

I'm liberal but I sure got really tired of defending the U.S. at every turn. Not just our politics but our health care system, our television and music (if they don't like American tv then why do they all watch it?), our comedy, our banking system, our news agencies... on 9-11 my MIL wasted no time forwarding to me reports that the plane that crashed in PA had been shot down by U.S. fighter jets, and telling me that only news agencies outside the U.S. were reporting such things.

At the moment I can't think of the last time a Canadian said something nice to me about Americans or about the U.S.

I meet Canadians all day long (I work at a US/CDN border) and I work with about 50% Canadian and I have never had a Canadian rag on the USA to me. Sure they never miss a chance to rag on our beer or our hocky teams...

So maybe you have encountered more than your fair share of rude people, Jayne. (Once when I was in Cancun though, one of the local merchants told me that tourists from the USA were among the rudest and cheapest they encounter. That about floored me, but he was very serious)


One of my U.S. girlfriends, who is pretty well off financially, and has very good insurance chooses to go to a Canadian doctor and even had her daughters braces done over in Canada. She thinks the doctor and orthontist she uses are better over there. Of course it could just be the area we live in.

You know what I like about Canada is that you can go to a Natural Health Care Practioner. I can't go to one in MI because our state won't license them, and so my insurance won't pay for them. Here they are treated like voodoo doctors.

Yes, unfortunately. That was a bad experience for me, too.

Jayne,

But aren't the Francophiles really nice??

I'm kiddin'


Like I said before...everyone in Canada is getting grade B or even B- healthcare. Some chosen people are getting grade A heathcare by coming to the US to get it. American's in over 40 million households are getting grade D or F medical care because they are uninsured and less and less of the insured are getting A- care simply because they still enough money to pay the extortionists or are fotunate enough, temporarily, to have employer provided healthcare. There are and always will be inherent advantages to having money (even if the US goes Single payer...Bill Gates can still hire his own private physician or other wealthy Americans can travel to some island country, china or South Africa to PAY for their care and I have no qualms with that).

My father relayed another complaint about the Canadian system that was told to him by a wealthy Canadian snowbird spending the winter in Florida. That prisoners in Canada are given preference in the Canadian system because to do otherwise was ruled cruel by the Canadian Judicial system. I doubt that will happen in the US though many prisoners are NOW treated better, medically, than out on the streets where they can't get any medical treatment under the current system.

Mr. Wondering

The first 2 or 3 years, I was like, "Ok, yes I agree, your country is so wonderful, I love it here, I agree, Americans suck..." then it started getting old around Year 3 or 4. I also started observing how they treated other non-Canadian non-Americans. And I started to realize that having your first conversation with someone being a complete criticism of their country is RUDE, much ruder than whatever they were complaining about.

So you may not notice it unless you are immersed in it for several years. At first it just seems like them pointing out how friendly they are... which if you think about it is pretty rude.

The other type of friendly is the "We-are-a-small-town-and-are-friendly-to-our-own-but-not-outsiders." I've experienced that in the U.S. and in Canada.

In Canada it got to where I refused to take our kids to the doctor or to go buy groceries. People would be friendly until I opened my mouth and they heard my accent. (No I wasn't saying anything mean to turn them off. I'd be smiling and talking friendly and assuming they were gonna be friendly.) I've had a kindergarten teacher tell me to my face in front of my kids on the first day that the school we had just moved from must have been mean because it was American and they aren't like that in Canada.

That was the instant I decided I was not willing to permanently move to where my H's job was. I did not want my kids growing up every day exposed to the attitude that half of their heritage was bad. You wouldn't ask any other culture to do that, and if you heard of someone treating children from a different culture that way, you would be opposed to it. But it was ok for that teacher to tell my kids that the country of their birth was bad.

The only Canadians who didn't rag on Americans was my band. I was in a reggae band. I think they were probably inherently open to other cultures.

It is true some people who have money go to the US for certain treatments because they can get them quicker. However, you have to look at the big picture as well. Health care doesn't begin when you suddenly become injured or so critically ill that you can no longer function without it. Health care includes regular checkups with your family physician, regular blood tests, mamograms, colonoscopies, bone density tests and other screening tests that can detect disease long before it becomes debilitating. Low income people simply can't pay for these so don't. By the time their symptoms appear, their chances of recovery are not only drastically reduced, but the treatment required is usually more extensive (and expensive).

So should we tell rich people how to spend their money? At least these "illegals" are paying for the services they get.

This is irrellevent to the discussion, although there is a bit of truth to it. Other than one person on this board, I've never met an American who insulted Canada. But I have met several that either didn't know where Canada was or had gross misconceptions about us (one guy thought we all drove dog sleds - and he was a CEO of mid-sized business in Cincinatti). Anti-American sentiment often stems mostly from those who have travelled abroad and have been mistaken for Americans. But some Canadians are just as rude as they claim Americans to be. We're all just people in the end and some of us are just #$#@''s.

In Canada we consider the Maritimes to be the east coast but I realize you mean Toronto. Yep - you could wake up in this city and not know you ever left home - except there's French on the signs.

Nope we don't. And America doesn't have monopoly on mean either - I've met hundreds of wonderful people there.

You cannot claim that our system is unsustainable solely based on opinion. Facts need to be present to support this or it is just that, an opinion.


Canada has done this yet the doctors do not feel, once again, that it is a lucrative & esteemed profession or they would be attracting more to stay in Canada.

You advocate eliminating the middleman and replacing them with another MIDDLEMAN. You still have a middleman! Nothing changed except we have a middleman, (ie. Government) that now has complete power, and control over all health care decisions.
How is that a better option???




What I hear you saying is that the USA "does" have a better system that attracts the best and the brightest to our country.
I also hear you suggesting that we DUMB DOWN our system to make it a level playing field and then these poor doctors will no longer have a choice but to go home.

Watch what you say about our beer and our hockey!


I meant to comment on this earlier - this is why I fly out of Buffalo. But Toronto airport is not typcial of other airports (or other border crossings for that matter) so please don't judge us by that. We hate it too.

Well...

Unsustainable...


Family Practitioners seem to think so:

Healthcare finance news article


Medicare and Medicaid are unsustainable:

Financial New Nov 7, 2008


Here's a Vermont governmental statement about sustainability (which goes beyond focusing on who pays and into the unsustainability of actual healthcare costs)

Healtcare costs unsustainable


This is just a few to work with. The last one is interesting because although it says focusing on who pays is wrong it also states:


"Trade-offs" are going to have to be made someday by somebody. This is simply the dirty word "rationing". Medical and Pharm Technology has and is exceeding our capacity to pay for it. You do know that the King could usurp every single healthcare dollar to focus exclusively on elongating his reign...but in the end, he WILL die. There are decisions that must be made and our elected Government is going to have to decide these issues some day soon...not private for-profit executives.

Mr. Wondering

I don't disagree with your statements (including the beer and hockey... except where did Wayne Gretzky finish his career? or Mario Lemieux? Gordie Howe? oops, sorry) but I think you misunderstood me here:


I wasn't saying that rich Canadians who come to the U.S. for medical treatments are "illegal aliens". I assume they flew or drove across at a legal port of entry with proper documents, not hiked across the border in the middle of the prairies somewhere.

My point here was that even though the two-tier system is believed by many to be unfair, that forcing a single-tier system will benefit no one. I'm not saying we should tell the rich how to spend their money. I'm saying the opposite- by paying for their own health care (in addition to paying their taxes) they free up resources for the others.

Putting everyone in the same line makes the line move slower. Think of airports again. Even if you don't get to stand in the First-Class line at check-in, the fact that some folks are in that line means that your line is that much shorter.

That's assuming that the person at the front of their line would NOT be available to serve your line, if their line did not exist. For the purposes of this analogy their line must be in another country. Imperfect analogy, sorry.

The other thing, about "illegals", I meant actual illegal aliens. You know, sneaking across the border with no documentation. I was a *legal* alien in Canada, and paid taxes including social insurance, etc., which I think legal aliens never have access to unless they become landed immigrants. Is this true?

What about illegal aliens in Canada - and I mean *illegal*, not there legally - do they get free health care? Free public schooling? It's my understanding that they do not, but I've never gotten a definitive answer.

Lemieux won us a gold medal in Salt Lake City under the brilliant coaching of Gretzky! Last time I saw Gordie was at the Hockey Hall of Fame in Toronto but I believe he still lives in Detroit.

They might cross over legally but they pay no taxes nor support any of your programs.

It would be a good analogy if there were actually enough people in the first class line, which there generally isn't.

Actually not bad. But the US is not the only country on the globe. If someone is rich enough to pay for treatment there, they can afford a plane ticket somewhere else should your "line" close. Worrying about what rich people do just isn't practical in any argument - they have the means to jump through any hoop you throw at them and it just leads to frustration. They will do what they do regardless. Let's worry about the regular folks.

I was a *legal* alien in the US and paid taxes and had a SS number etc. Rich people just cross the border, take what they want and leave.

I've actually got a major pet peeve related to this. When I moved back to Canada I mistakenly went in to reapply for a health card (should not have said anything). As such, they found out I'd been out of the country for 3 years. It takes 4 months to re-qualify for a new health card. Naturally, our entire family got sick. We had bought some private insurance but we had to find a clinic that accepted it (kind of like HMOs in the US). The nearest clinic to us happened to be where all the refugees go. It was jam packed full, offered service in over 50 languages though not one single other english speaking person was in the waiting room. All had the health cards the gov't gave them as they stepped off the boat, while me and my family did not - though we were all born and raised Canadians who just happened to have been away for a few months.

But that speaks to our immigration policies, not our health care.

I had an HMO insurance when I was pregnant with my daughter and I had to drive 2 hours to a different town for all the wellness appointments as well as the dilivery, because the HMO didn't cover the area where I live. That was kind of hard on me, but would have been very hard on someone without good transportation or a flexible job, or other little kids at home.

My company has since switched insurance co, so it is much more convenient now. However, the monthly cost to the employees, as well as our copay has increased substantially as well.


Tabby, we used to drive accross the border and buy those 222's (aspirin with codiene) for my aunt who got terrible headaches. Also there was some type of tonic for colicky babies that everyone raved about. I can't remember the name of it anymore.

But they aren't using any of our "welfare" programs. They are paying fair market price for the treatments they receive.


I think you still misunderstand me. I'm not saying the rich shouldn't do that. I'm saying it HELPS the regular folks, when they give up their spot in line.

I'm saying the Canadians who begrudge the rich for doing so would be shooting themselves in the foot.

I'm saying let the rich pay for treatment elsewhere if they want. *I* am saying don't worry if they do that.


I assume they pay for it, right?


My H has experienced this numerous times, and my kids were without coverage every summer because they'd been out of the country, and by the time the 4 months was up, they were again out of the country.

We paid cash for our medical care in Canada. It cost us a lot more than it would have cost us in the U.S. Any prescriptions were a lot more in Canada also, because they didn't accept our U.S. insurance. And we weren't covered under Canada's "Universal Coverage".

Canada's "Universal Health Care System" is NOT "universal". It is only for those with health cards. No health card, or if you happen to be in certain provinces and you have a different province's health card, and you are NOT covered.

At least in the U.S. it is possible (presumably) for someone with NO money and NO documentation (i.e., truly ILLEGAL aliens) to get health care. And public schooling, along with free lunches and breakfasts.

People complain about how evil the U.S. system is, and how compassionate the Canadian Universal Health Care system is.


I think it is also relevant to health care. Canada claims to have *universal* health care.

UNIVERSAL health care would be if you went to the hospital and they treated you, without asking for ANY paperwork or I.D. or payment.

But then who's going to pay for all that? Then you would have to have much higher taxes, so you'd have the middle class working harder than ever - I know *tons* of middle class folks who don't do the regular check-ups mentioned, and so lots of cancers go undetected until it's too late - because they don't take the time. Usually because they are working.

You would also have the waiting rooms full of people who are not working, who go into the office for every sneeze and sniffle, just because it's free.

It is complex. You go too far one way and you create more problems.

That isn't because health care and medicine is cheaper in Canada. That's because aspirin with codeine requires a prescription in the U.S.

My sister used to ask me to bring 222's back for her too. That was just one of the drugs she used.