I do see your point and you certainly know more about this than I do.

MyRev,
could not have said it better myself. That is like saying you are committed to paying the bills but not going to work. hard to pay the bills w/o any money.

So what I’m hearing is that you feel she should be giving more if she is truly committed to our M. I have been taking SF slow. I am having a hard time not pushing the issue but I have tried to give her time. I thought that was the right thing to do. You guys have got me thinking now.

The other night I made a comment about SF and she said that she had planned on trying the night before but I messed it up. What happened was she told me she would like to go to go to a Halloween party with a friend and I told her I didn’t want her to go. I told her if she is committed to our M she would not go to this party. She fed me some crap back and I told her that if she goes it is a deal breaker for me. The next night when she said I messed it up, she said that when we got into our argument it set her back. While I do believe her that the exchange between us did set both of us back a bit. I don’t buy that it is that big of a deal. It affects me when she does crap like that too. I can get past it I don’t understand why she can’t.

She has been a lot better about being near me and touching me lately. I do feel that has improved it’s just that I can’t push it to the next level.

Noname,

You are being fed a steady diet of BS, and its time for you to call BULLSH!T on her.

Look at this lgoically ...

* She was leading her life independently, which led to her going to bars without you and picking up other men (plural).

* After you stood up for yourself, she stopped this conduct and seemed to be responding.

* She then TOLD you she was recommitting to the M, but refuses SF with you.

* So you back off somewhat, and she starts to revert to her past disconnected behavior.

* Now she wants to go out again to a party, WITHOUT YOU, and you tell her its a deal breaker.

* Then the NEXT NIGHT, she tells you she INTENDED to have SF with you, but YOU messed it up by not allowing her to go out ALONE.

* THAT'S BULLSH!T!!! ... Call her on it!!!

Do you not see how she's blaming her bad behavior on YOU???

She's manipulating you man, and its working. She's holding sex out as some type of reward for you submitting to her will, because of all people, "SHE" understands what your hot buttons are, and has become adept at pressing them.

She SAYS she has recommitted and then withholds the very ACT that seals that recommittment.

TONIGHT, when she is making EXCUSES for not engaging in SF, just tell her:

"YOUR actions got us in this mess, and because of the lies to cover up your actions, your words no longer hold any value. Your ACTIONS got us here, and it will take your ACTIONS to get us over it. So when you SAY you are recommitted to our M, but refuse the very ACT that binds that committment, I have to give more value to your ACTIONS than your WORDS"

Then when she starts to blameshift or make more excuses, just say:

"Actions and Words"

... and repeat as necessary.

She'll catch on very soon that you are no longer buying her BULLSH!T, and she will get on board with R, or she'll convey through her ACTIONS that she never will.

Either way, YOU'RE out of LIMBO!!!

IMHO, you have a lost cause on your hands that has now turned into a serial adulterer/master manipulator, but its your call to continue to attempt R. If you want to try, you simply HAVE TO ESTABLISH SOME HARD AND FIRM BOUNDARIES that you will ENFORCE IMMEDIATELY when they are crossed, because IMO she will continue to test you.

Oh, dear, NN, I was feelin OK about the improvements in your WW until your last post, and I am having the same reaction as MyRev after hearing about the party and the gaslighting.

It sounds like your WW is continuing to cake-eat...doing just enough to get you to continue meeting some of her ENs while she is not really committed to R.

How often does she want to go out with friend/s on her own? What else has she done to show you she is really committed to R? Has she read any of the MB books or here on the site?

This was the first thing time she had mentioned going out to the bar with friends. She is not running around like she was in the past. We have been doing a lot of family things and stuff just the two of us. We have also reconnected with another couple who we had lost touch with this past year.

She has not read any of the stuff her or the books we have at home. She claims she doesn't have time. I printed off the EN questionnaire a few weeks ago. Mine is filled out, I’m just waiting for her to do it. She said she would. I honestly think she forgot but since it was something I asked her to do I expect her to remember that. This sort of stuff really isn’t her thing. But I never would have thought it was mine either until I picked up one of the books.

I do feel that she wants to make our M work now. I have no doubt about that. Things have changed dramatically this past month. But I can see where she is giving me just enough to get by. The SF is one thing she is not doing. The major problem is her not respecting my boundaries (wanting to go to the party). She has not crossed them yet but she wanted too.

I have to totally agree with this statement here since I read your last post.

In the past have you guys been in a pattern where she withholds until you give in to something she wants from you??

Noname,

I really wish this weren't the case, but you are in DENIAL. You are trying to convince yourself that your WW is "trying" ... but show us one MEANINGFUL example of her ACTIONS towards that goal ... her WORDS are worthless.

You say you have no doubt that she wants the M to work, but then she won't engage in SF, and she has no respect for your boundaries. Now its YOUR WORDS and HER ACTIONS that aren't matching. Quit making EXCUSES for her, and see her for what she REALLY is.

At this point, you have basically two remaining options ... you can draw a line in the dirt and let the chips fall where they may ... or you can start acquiring a taste for [censored], because that will be your diet going forward.

I've been with you here for quite a while now and I've encouraged, defended and even swung a 2x4 or two at you, but its now up to you alone to ACT as the head of your family.

It's your life ... YOU make the call!!!

Agree.


Agree. Again.

She's "testing the fences".

OK, but does she still go off with her friends for other outings? If so, how often?

This would be troubling to me and a sign that she is not really committed. If the circumstances were different, I could understand, but for all that she has put you through with the several d-days and three OM...I would have thought she would have read some of the stuff or at least filled out the EN questionnaire.

It sounds like she may be doing exactly what MyRev said...she may have been testing the waters with this party, but it sounds like she will continue to push on your boundaries.

MyRev

When you speak to me it really makes me think. I know she has been feeding me a lot of $hit. I have read the posts from the other day a number of times.

When I went home that night I kind of had a chip on my shoulder. Eventually I said something to her. We talked about it for awhile and I told her what I needed. She knows what I need. I told her that things are going good now but I need to get something from her.

Nothing has happened yet for SF. Her "aunt flo" was visiting last week. This week she has had a cold sore so I haven't even kissed her in a few days. She knows what I need and expect. I guess the next few days will show me.

MyRev,

I couldn't find a quote from you where you asked me for an example of her trying to work on our M. She has been so much closer physically with me (SF is something I will see about here in the next couple days). I don't know how to describe it. Her and I are just talking more. She looks at me differently than she did a year ago. She will call me work to talk about just stupid things. This is something that she normally would do with her friends. She is doing that more with me now.

I do agree with you that I have been taking a lot of BS. I guess I don't really see it all the time until I get clobbered when I post it here.

I am going to continue to try and make this work here. I'm just not ready to quit. Although I have looked into what legally I need if it comes to that.

Even though I may be a BS with not enough balls the support does help me grow them.

Noname,

It is GREAT that you are evaluating the situation and are seeing "some" progress. There are quite a number of long time BH's here at MB who settled for much less than they now find acceptable, and many of them haven't had SF with their WW in months, years, some even decades. I don't consider them to be in a RECOVERED M by any definition. They simply didn't have the testicular fortitude to set the bar sufficiently high to meet their expectations, nor would they defend their boundaries and leave such a unfulfilling situation.

Now ... Brace yourself for another 2x4 ... you're doing the excuse/denial thing again. "Aunt Flo" and a "cold sore" are EXCUSES. It's great that you "feel" a little more connected, but ARE YOU? ... or are you simply relieved to no longer have to be dealing with a crazy active WW?

It goes back to "ACTIONS AND WORDS" ... your WW claims to be feeling better about you, but she won't put ACTIONS to those WORDS. She KNOWS you want SF, but she is still holding out, and you are making excuses for her. That is NOT a loving ACTION.

I may embarrass FogFree here a little (sorry, honey ), but she is having some female surgery next week, and because of the underlying problems ... the "goodies" have been "out of order" quite a bit for the past few months. However, she has learned so much about me, and me likewise about her, in the past year, that she UNDERSTANDS just how important SF is in our M and has been INSISTANT in pleasing me in other ways, and I have found alternate means of reciprocating my love for her.

Where there is a will, there is a way and your WW is not showing you any where near that level of committment.

I'm sure you've learned a lot about your WW and yourself since starting down this path ... don't be afraid to put that knowledge to use, and set the bar sufficiently high to meet your needs, and then freely share your appreciation, by using what you've learned about her, to recognize and reward her efforts when she meets those needs.

If she will respond, then you have the making for the "Mr. and Mrs. Noname Mutual Admiration Society", with a very bright future ahead where you are both AWARE of each other needs and are successfully meeting them.

However, on the flip side, if she won't respond, then you have to first recognize that behavior and defend your boundaries or you too could wind up in a self-deluded state of R that will haunt you and keep you in a state of limbo for the rest of your life.

YOU MAKE THE CALL, and then take the necessary ACTION to make it happen.

I realize that I am making excuses for her. I have been telling myself for some time now that I cannot continue to just give with nothing in return. I thought I was supposed to take this slow so I let her have her time. Your point of her being committed with actions makes sense. If I’m showing my commitment to our marriage she should as well. I will take some action on this tonight.

Just one additional comment ... this is where I disagree with MB philosophy. Here at MB, WH's and WW's are treated in basically the same manner, but based on what I've seen in my time here, this should not be the case.

WW's should be dealt with much more quickly than what is often advocated here. They NEED that jolt of reality that quick and decisive action brings. Also, WW's tend to view a BH's inaction as WEAKNESS and are repulsed by it.

Look at your own situation ... when you have taken definitive and decisive action, your WW has responded much more positively towards you.

Read this closesly. I think if she wanted to make your marriage work, she would make time to read the stuff. Maybe she does not realize that marriage does not just "work". Like you have heard, ACTIONS. Reading the books and WORKING on the marriage is proof. Saying i want to work on the marriage is not!

Things between the two of us have been better than they have in a long time. We are spending more time together and she is being more affectionate with me. She has not been going out with her friends like she was during her A. She told me just yesterday that she feels so much better now than a few months ago. Pretty much the same thing as last time I posted.

I have brought up the SF thing to her in the past week. Last night we went out and when we got home she said she didn’t want to do it. I guess this is where is all started. I told her I couldn’t live like this anymore. I said I have a huge need that you aren’t even trying to meet.

She tells me that she just doesn’t want to, she says she just doesn’t feel it. I can’t get other reasons from her. She says she thinks about it but when it comes time she can’t do it. This makes no sense to me other that it leaves a lot of thoughts in my head. Anyway I have taken yet another stand. We have been fighting all day. I asked her tonight if I walked out of her life would it affect her. She said it would but it sure didn’t seem like it would. She told me that she has a thought in the back of her mind that this just isn’t going to work. So after a lot of fighting she has her bag packed and is planning on leaving for the night so that we don’t fight anymore tonight.

I snoop in everything she does. I know there is no OM right now. Things have felt so good when she has been close to me lately. Right now it is just the SF that I need with her. I don’t want to give up on this but I don’t know what else to do. I have told her what I need and she isn’t stepping up to the plate. Instead she is leaving so she doesn’t have to talk about it tonight.

I don’t know what to do anymore.

I never asked her not to leave last night. I didn't want her to but I wasn't going to beg her to stay so I just left her alone. She ended up not leaving.

Things in the SF department improved last night. I have told her that I will not accept what I am getting from her right now. I really think this is it for me. Things do feel very good between us now but that one big piece needs to be there for me. If things in the SF department don't continue to improve I won't live with this crap anymore.

Last update was she was dragging her heels on reading the MB materials. I was curious, has she read anything yet? filled in her EN questionnaire? Shown any kind of interest in learning about marriage building?

She doesn't have any interest in reading this stuff. She had was open to the counseling that we were doing but she just doesn't want to read. I offered to get her a book on CD but she didn't seem too interested but she didn't say no either. Maybe I should just go get one of them and see what happens.