Hi Ears, if I'm understanding you right, even your dh staying off the alcohol is not enough to win you back because its the associated other bad behaviour that's caused you to fall out of love with him: IB, AO, DJs, etc. Is this right?

I think you've been through the cycle enough times to know whether you dh is a problem drinker, whether or not he is an "alcoholic". You also know that he has not made enough changes for you to feel comfortable picking up stakes yet again. I'm glad to hear that your not falling for his games.

Have you given him an answer to his question of "will you move to CA if I give up the alcohol?"

Happy, I'm saying, I'm empty for him. Even if he gave up California, I still want out. Even if he gave up drinking for good. Which I would be unrealistic to believe, given that he says that he wouldn't be willing to do it willingly. He can make promises, but there is still that willingness he has to gain at my expense. I can't make a life where everyone will be nice to me. But I can look at the folks who are willing to hurt me and choose to detach in love until there is reason to think that I'd make better decisions.

All this EN meeting stuff that I did, that he did, what a blessing. I don't mean to minimize any of it. But I have realized that these were not temporary situations to grin and bear. These were situations that screamed loud and clear, Enter At Your Own Risk! I get it.

I haven't given him an answer. I've lost faith in us in the present. I don't think it's honest to make promises today. I have a hope for the future, a distant one. I understand that WAW syndrome, where it is just painful to think of staying together. That withdrawal.

Edited to add: I'm failing today in my wish to keep an open mind. I don't know how to make amends for that.

*hugs*

Hon, you're entitled to days like this.

As sad as it sounds, I was surprised and saddened and heartened to hear you say 'I still want out.' Heartened because you're finally putting yourself first. Your daughters need that. I'm so tired of watching women put their needs aside for the good of the family (read: husband).

{{{{{{Ears}}}}}}.

Life will get better, but I know its croppola right now.

Thanks, guys, for the support. Your thoughts really help me with perspective. I went to a meeting last night, and it was about love and loving detachment. Helped me remember that everything is okay, that there is joy in today.

From Dr. H's Alcoholic Spouse article.


He will meet them, but only when there isn't an IB activity that gets in the way.


Because the positve reinforcement from the alcohol or IB is more powerfully reinforcing, a bigger payoff, than the positive reinforcement from getting his needs met.

We have a lot of details to think through with a separation, and things pop up in conversation. I'm filtering myself to not bring this up as we go along, but rather save it up for a few conversations, to help me keep my focus in today instead of jumping ahead. And out of respect for H, too, because he's still processing, too. He doesn't know if he wants to still take our Christmas vacation together, and a few other things.

This morning, H brought up California again, asking if I would be willing to move out there separated for two years. He said that he is losing his dream, and he thinks he knows what I would say, but he had to ask.

I didn't go into the drinking again. That isn't something that I can will for him.

I told him, I can empathize with how hard it is to accept that a dream is fading. That I had a dream, too. I wanted a lifetime with the man that I made vows to. That he would choose to protect me and not hurt me, not gain at may expense. That we would be free to love another without being hurt. That I could share my hurts without being invalidated and ridiculed. He said that his buddy Vegas trip over our anniversary was a one time thing. I explained that this has not been a one time thing to me. That whether he thinks these things should bother me or not, that they do. I was trying to think of examples that he would understand, because it makes withdrawals for me when he invalidates me. But I caught myself, and I realized, I can't control his actions, so I mentioned just briefly one example, when he told me that I was "not allowed" to go with him and his buddies and their wives on a trip to the Keys (last Fall).

I don't know if he will hear me on this, if he will decide to he commit to not being a source of pain to me. But I am glad that I was able to clarify what I was asking for.

Jayne, I remember last week that you thought I was being maybe too rigid. I understand that. But I have tried the other way, setting my BCs too low. Staying at any cost. But I don't see that anymore as protecting my marriage.

FWIW...I commend you for staying true to yourself and your beliefs on these issues with your DH. I imagine it is difficult listening to him tell you that he feels his dream is fading and continuing to ask you to give more so his dream can be fulfilled at your expense -- at least that's what I am reading from your post.

You are doing very well at protecting your boundaries, IMO. Until he acknowledges and demonstrates consistant sobriety (among some other things), any concession by you to move toward his dream means you move further away from your core beliefs and, ultimately, lose protection of your heart in your marriage.

What you are doing is not easy, by any stretch of the imagination. The fact that children are involved makes each decision you make even that much harder.

No real advice in this post, other than to continue giving you encouragement at a time when I am certain you feel the most alone.

Thanks, diamonds, for being here. It helps me with acceptance to discuss this here.

He really "got it" this morning. "Nina, I'm not going to tell you that I think there are things that you would like. I' speaking frankly here. This is my dream, about me. I'm asking you not to take this away from me. I don;t know if I can forgive you for that."

It wasn't so much angry or frustration that I felt, but acceptance, freedom. Like self-validation that this was not my issue to resolve.

It did complicate things with the kids. H said if it weren't for them, he'd have just gone out there. That he's here because he doesn't want to live away from them. So some things would have been easier to see. But that was my problem, my lack of clarity. I do feel sad for them. I talked to DD12 yesterday, and she sounded okay. That may change, and we can handle that, too.

Hi ears,

I'm sorry if I was off-base with my comment about being too rigid. You know I'm coming from a recent history of going back to the SOSO without much improvement.

What did he say when you brought up the Keys trip? If other wives went, what was his excuse for dis-inviting you? Does he hear you, does he get it, that it isn't just this one thing or that one thing, that you aren't trying to rob him of his dream but you feel you have to protect yourself since he doesn't?

Was he asking if you would consider joining him in CA after a 2-year separation? Why 2 years?

*hugs*

Jayne, I'm glad that you brought your concern about my thoughts on staying together being too rigid to my attention. I didn't find that it fit where I was at that time, but I don't think that there is right or wrong here, just perspective. There have been a lot of times where something doesn't hit me one point in time, and then does another.


At the time, he said that his buddy's BiL had extra room for H in his room, for the Key West Poker Run that year, but there were no other rooms available at any price for that weekend so that I could come, too. This morning, he said he gets it, that his buddy disrespects me and our kids, that a real friend is someone who doesn't do that.

I don't know if he gets it, that my concern was not about what his buddy does or thinks. But about H and how his actions affect our family. There have been trips that I've wanted to do for years that he says we can't do because we can't afford it, instead of POJAing how we could save up for them. Yet there was money for these trips, because "one is cheaper than four."

I'm not saying this out of resentment for him. I'm filling in the detail to give you the context. This was our cycle, that he made these decisions and I complained but went along, not knowing about POJA, like it describes in The Dance of Anger and the post The Bad Giver and the Good Taker. It took two of us to make a cycle like this.


No, he was asking me to go there with him January or this summer, and stay in a separate place THERE for two years. He said that in two years he will have had that experience, gotten it out of his system, and be okay with coming back here or going somewhere else with us.

Thanks for the hugs!

:MrEEk:

I don't understand... *why* would you move there if you weren't doing it in order to stay living with him? Did this somehow make sense in the context of the conversation, or is he, um, foggy or something?

I did ask him that, Jayne, looking for clarity. This part is the difficult part, seeing him in pain, no longer willing to sacrifice to take him out of that pain. He said before this slipped away, regardless of the answer, that he had to ask. He said that there are great school programs for the kids, great job opportunities for us, that he would pay for my housing, and that I would make friends and find community there.

That he knows that I do want to reconcile after separation. But that some things cannot be forgiven, like that buddy Vegas trip, and that if I don't go, he didn't know if he could forgive me for denying him that. I clarified that while I was hurt, I did forgive him for that. But that I would accept his decision if he does not want to reconcile. Jayne, I don't even know for sure that I would want to reconcile. I am taking a first guess at this point.

But if you don't go, that isn't denying him anything... unless he isn't willing to go without you. Am I understanding this correctly?

It sounds like he's pulling out every option he can find to get you to be willing to go. I would imagine he'll come up with some other options as time goes by.

What was the deal with the Buddy trip to Las Vegas over your anniversary? I don't remember that one.

Yes. He prefaced it by saying that he isn't someone that could go without his kids. He was willing before. I think that it's better for the kids that he's changed his mind on that.

It was in July of 2006. I'll look for the post.

Please don't think I'm trying to talk you out of a healthy decision to protect yourself. Let me preface this by reminding you how I keep finding myself in the same situation, because I keep falling for even a little sign of improvement. Hearing how your H talks about his dream job tugs at my heart, as it did when my H talked about his dream job.

So, my question is (and please don't take this to be pressuring you or anything) at this point, is there anything that your H could do that would help you be ok with moving to Canada? (Oops!!!! Make that California!!!) Or has too much happened, and you definitely need a separation at least for awhile?

There is no dream job. He'd be doing consulting for a consulting company, out at whatever client they'd have work for. He does that here. It's a dream location to him. I understand that feeling of being at home somewhere. And of going on vacation somewhere and saying, wow, I'd love to live here. What can I do to make that happen? It tugs at my heart, too.

Since we worked with the MC, he's doing a lot of lovebank filling things. Backing up my parenting decisions. Appreciating instead of criticizing what I cook and what I do for the kids. Being enthusiastic about me seeing my FOO, even encouraging me now to have Thanksgiving dinner here. Initiating SF, and not rushing me through it. Giving me a kiss goodbye when we leave for work and come home. Going on date nights.

Jayne, I don't know what to say, I don't want to let you down. If anyone can "fake it till you make it", try a "wait and see" once again, even when it makes no rational sense to me, I think I can. But why prolong this? I don't know how to distinguish it from our other upswings, the ones we came tumbling back down from, other than also looking for the consideration, too.

I wish I had an answer for you. I can't imagine how much this is hurting you. Just remember that doing this for you is also doing it for your daughters. You can't protect them without protecting yourself; we all know that.

Gotta go, took a Benadryl after brushing the cat, can't stay away.