Agree, that in the A it is not a conscious effort. Nor is it a conscious effort to not to in the M. My main point was that with conscious effort, the brain chemistry can be altered. I may come back to this point later.



I realize men will do this.

It's an interesting dynamic. I saw a study once that showed bad news hurts more than good news helps. For example, if someone loses a dollar in the morning, then they find a dollar in the evening, even though at the end of the day they are no better or worse off, all else being equal, they will still "feel" like it was a bad day. Which sort of points to two things.

The first, which I think many women agree with, is that bringing flowers, while confessing you did something wrong, is seldom going to end with that women feeling like she had a good day.

The second, which is more in line with what I meant by perception, if a women intreprets receiving flowers as bad news, (i.e. the other shoe is going to drop) then the subsequent revelation that there is no other shoe, which is good news, will not be enough to make her happy (overall) about the flowers.

Not sure how I did it, but I think I've talked myself into never sending a woman flowers.

HOw about sending them the day AFTER the "deed"??????

not2fun

I wouldn't do this. Sending flowers (or chocolate or any other gift) is usually very well received. The trouble starts when the ONLY time it is done is when you are trying to make up for something. Never do it then and your wife will never ask "what did you do?"

I don't fully understand why men do that but it sure seems most of them do. Even my 20 yo DS has done similar things and believe me, I did not raise him that way. It's the old philosophy that it's easier to beg forgiveness than ask permission. My neighbour is the leading professional on this - we all joke about how much trouble he's in and for what (it's an ongoing soap opera over there). I could write pages of stories on his antics - he's a legend in these parts.

Quite right, quite right. FWIW, I seldom send flowers as an apology.


Probably in some cases. Those times when the man knows what he is about to do is going to cause a problem.

Ironically, the last couple of comments have sort of been illustrating my point about perception. I had posted that low sexual desire is potentially an effort problem, and then commented that a rebuttal to that may be that the man was not romantic. My response was that sometimes a woman my consider a man unromantic because of her perceptions.

I think this comes about because initially we have no or very few preconcieved ideas about a person. We judge almost exclusively based on their actions. But once we "know" a person, their actions become colored by our preconcieved notions.

Said another way, once a woman has concluded, based on his previous actions, that her H is unromantic, even if he changes his actions, and does something "objectively" romantic, the woman will tend to dismiss the romantic nature of the action, due to the fact she has already concluded he is not romantic.

You can generally see this IRL, based on the reaction of women, who see another woman getting flowers. Those that do not know the man who sent the flowers will generally view it as a romantic gesture. Although, the woman who received the flowers, will view it a completely different way, based on what she knows about the man.

Because of this, I can't help but think there are some women who experience low sexual desire because they are waiting to get "swept off their feet." Which, by itself, I guess is okay. But it becomes problematic when based on their preconcieved ideas about, knowledge of, or perceptions about their spouse, make him the one man (or one of many) on the planet, who could never actually do this, regardless of what actions they take.

The typical rebuttal to that position is the women's response of, "not true, if my husband would do x, then I would be swept away." (The most popular X lately seems to be some sort of housekeeping, i.e. if he would clean the house, cook the dinner, put away the dishes, get the kids to bed, I would be in the mood). But even this becomes difficult because if all of the above is done "for" sex, it instantly becomes unromantic. Which means, at best, it "works" 1 time and at worst it never actually "works" at all. Just meaning, if the woman actually has to say, if you do X, we will have SF, then there isn't usually a lot of romance there. Not a lot of "sweeping of her feet." And if he bumbles on to X of his accord, and she is "swept of her feet", when he tries it again, it won't be viewed as kind, loving romantic gesture, but a ploy to get SF. Again, no getting swept away.

Oh crud, I think I've done it again. I've now convinced myself to do no house cleaning, cooking, putting away dishes, or getting the kids to bed.

Heh heh. Really though, what your posts come down to (and I agree with you) is when a marriage has a lack-of-SF problem, especially on the part of the woman, then the woman has to take an active part in solving the problem, and not just wait for the husband to do something to "turn her on" because usually he can't, at least not more than once in a blue moon.

So if she won't do work on her own behalf to change her perceptions to try and see her husband as sexy again, the marriage is basically finished. Or at least it's going to be one of very low SF for the couple-at least until the wife stumbles across some OM who turns her on and then she'll be off having an affair...

Or the man could look for his SF elsewhere and have an affair.....

Either way not a good situation. For me even though i have medical problems that do effect my "libido" i work hard to try to not let them interfere with my H's SF desires.

But i tend agree with rprynne that a lot of it has to do with "perception" but i also think it can go both ways.

I posted in another thread about how my "perception" was not a good one when it came to my H helping out with things. And i am sure a lot of it is "my perception" of how things have "always" been so i do not try to change them because i just thing why bother "he will not help me anyway", when who knows maybe he would liked to be asked to help (because he has "knight syndrome" as rprynne put it i like that term BTW ) and i do not ask because of my "perception"

But i also kind of look at it like this as well. When you were dating your spouse (or previous girlfriends) did you ever get them flowers "just because"? If so why do you not continue to do so? If not and the "spouse" ONLY gets flowers for an "apology" then yes that is what she will "think" every time she gets flowers form you.

Same thing with the cleaning up, the helping with the kids etc. if that is the ONLY time you help out then once again yes the woman is going to "think" that you are only doing it to "get some".

If you do these things on a consistent basis then not only does she "not think it is a ploy" it will give her "warm fuzy feelings" and extra time so that maybe she will "want" to fill you SF desires.

I'm one of those people whose sex drive disappeared shortly after getting married. I'm also one of those people who weren't bothered by it. I attribute a lot of it to exhaustion...with newborn twins in the house the last thing I was thinking was "hey lets get it on". More like keep your supersperm away from me....
As our marriage progressed though I could feel that problem fading away and another taking its place. Even before MB I knew something was missing that made me want not want sex and was so happy when I learned about ENs, that this wasn't something in my head. Before MB I would tell H that I was not going to feel like having sex after watching him stare at the tv all night, and he would tell me that made him feel like he had to jump through hoops to get it, that it shouldn't be something he had to earn. Of course now I know I was part of the problem too since I wasn't fulfilling his ENs, but even when I would try to it wouldn't get me the conversation, affection, etc. that I wanted.
I'm in a quasi-Plan A mode right now and have been working really hard to focus on meeting his EN's. This has included initiating sex at least once a day and oddly enough my sex drive is coming back with a vengeance. So maybe thats another reason it doesn't bother us-we go so long without having it we forget what its like to want it. Also, since we've been "working" on our marriage a lot of my needs are being met as well, and I'm sure that had a lot to do with it...

This is very wise and truly at the heart of this. It is also a well understood psychological phenomenon regarding positive reinforcement. Positive reinforcement has the strongest impact when the reward doesn't happen every single time the behavior occurs. Especially if the reward comes randomly after the behavior. This is the principal behind gambling additions. You don't win on every play. You don't even win on every 3rd play. But the thought that you might win on the next play is enough to keep playing.

Taken in this context, if the man cleans (or sends flowers or whatever the desired behavior is), but SF doesn't happen every single time, or every xth (predictable) time, but it does happen as a result of the behavior, technically he should be compelled to repeat the behavior more frequently. Unfortunately, real life tends to get in the way. When you have a newborn at home and you are exhausted, even the 10th flower delivery or house cleaning isn't going to change the fact that you are sleep deprived, recovering from labour etc. But maybe this is where the effort is particularly most needed by the woman. Because if the reward still occurs occassionally, the positive reinforcement will continue.

Now that's about the most unromantic thing I have ever written,b but it's the hazard of overanalyzing things - even romance.

Yes, but to be fair, I think both the man and the woman should take an active part.


I'm not sure. I suppose this could be part of it.


SC and Tabby - I hear your point. The man should continue to do those things he did when the couple was courting.