L4 I just read through your thread and I do applaud you for doing the right thing and confessing to your H and even more so for taking his anger instead of bailing on him once again. Then you kind of lost me here...


You lied to yourself L4. OM doesn't owe you an apology and you don't owe him one. You have no idea what has been going on in OM's house and don't know what OMW knows and doesn't. How do you know his W would be so out the door? I know every disgusting detail of my FWH's A (many here know of their WS's A details as well) and they are still fighting the good fight. **mini rant over**

Good luck to you and your H. It is not easy to recover from such a devasting loss, but I give you credit for trying.

L4,

I get this, but then why does my H even ask me? He used to do this all the time -- ask me a question but not accept my answer. It's his M.O. So while it makes sense that he does not trust me at all now, why does he bother asking a question if my answer (in his eyes) isn't going to be the truth anyway?

I would guess that by asking, he is seeing if your story stays the same from time to time, trying to catch you in another lie.

God Bless
NJ

I know, BR. I know... My reasoning is not sound. It's not based on any facts. FOM owes me nothing and I owe him nothing. But that's how I feel. Purely how I feel. On paper we're doing everything right to struggle through this. But I still hurt. I invested myself into the FOM and he promised me up, down, and sideways that he'd be there for me, even as we unraveled our dispicable PA. As completely twisted, dishonest, and disgraceful as it was, I gave a piece of my emotional heart to that man. And he treated me like roadkill. It was as if he was following a playbook on how to finess, conduct, and then end an affair. I'm not asking for sympathy and goodness knows I don't deserve it. I was just venting in this place where I feel safe. Sorry about that.

I'm an adult. I made my choices and I'm living with them. But my heart still aches knowing that a man I thought cared about me really doesn't give a crap. And the man that apparently loved me all along but couldn't show it (my H), can't love me any more.

I agree, NJ. He's running truth tests and I understand why. And I'll submit to them every time. But he's always done this. It's a controlling thing he's done for years and it's back. We were working on it through counseling, and I can only guess (of course I don't know) that he feels justified in returning this tactic because I'm a liar. Correction -- I was a liar. But I can't go back to again being the stupid one whose opinions, answers, and feedback can be dismissed. I'm eating it for now, but I can't go back there to stay.

Anyway... Carrying on...

Vent away anytime you want, I will listen. BTW, I completely understand where you are coming from and what you are saying. In time it will all sort itself out though and you will start to see how fog played into all of this. I mean really see it and most likely you will start to cringe over some stuff that was said. To this day there are still things that make me cringe and there are times I think "how the heck didn't I see through THAT nonsense and totally believe it?" It really is part of the process.

LC

It's only been 13 days since my confession. We were digging in deep, but he's drifting away now. He's barely talking to me any more. The last three days he's left the house withhout telling me where he's going or if/when he'll return. (We never do this. We always tell each other when we're stepping out, even if we're mad at each other.) I told him I can't stand that because I don't know if he's walking out for good or just to go to the store. He said, "Sorry," the first time and has since done it again -- in the middle of the day and late at night.

He sent me 4 emails today, all exclaiming deep hurt. I know this is expected -- that this takes time. But some of the statements were really mean. He's using foul language and mocking my needs for therapy. I'm trying to take the high road, continue to take responsibility for my actions past and present, and respond to his emails honestly. But the sarcasm, accusations against my mothering, and hurtful name calling... I'm trying to stand strong. I know this is par for the course. I know I deserve it. But can someone tell me how long before the punches stop? I'll take them as long as I know they will eventually end.

He won't go to church with us tomorrow, he has work in the afternoon, and I have a church meeting tomorrow night. He leaves Monday on business until Thursday night. This means five more days of not being together, not being able to look into his eyes and reassure him I'm sorry and I'm committed to this marriage. I'm so scared he's gone. What can I do?

Of course not. After what you both have been through, neither of you should settle for the way things were.

I tip my hat to you - you certainly have a good attitude about all of this.

I have been guilty of this one - he is doing this to punish you. He knows you are afraid of being abandoned. I hate to admit it but I used to smirk as I tip-toed out of the house knowing my W would be climbing the walls when she discovered I was gone.

It is one thing to vent and another to be malicious. You should not have to stand for verbal abuse. You are not a doormat. Let him know you love him and you want to be there for him. You will console him, reassure him, and be completely honest with him but you cannot and will not be his punching bag. Your mistakes, as bad as they are, do not warrant cruelty.

L4, I assume you have read up on Plan A. Make yourself more attractive to your H. Exercise, eat right, become the kind of woman he would want to date. I suspect he feels the desperation from you and uses it as a weapon for transferring his pain.

13 days since you told BH.

It takes on average for a BH to go six months to grasp what has happen and calm down, not heal though. Then they go through a anger phase from six to twelve months out. In all from D day recovery takes two to five years. It's a very gradual process.

L4,

He won't go to church with us tomorrow, he has work in the afternoon, and I have a church meeting tomorrow night.

He might suspect that people in the church know, I think you said you told you pastor, so perhaps he feels he would be standing there like a cuckoo with all his feathers stripped off. Does he feel like he's traveling around under a cloud with a neon chump sign on his chest?

I started going to my wifes church with her after reading about all the affairs that start in that environment. It's a great place for smooth seducing serial cheating males to operate. I think it has something to do with women believeing church to be a safe and sacred place.

I used to go to a Catholic church which might be safer for women as they worship a virgin and the priests are uninterested in ladies.

Also the hypocracy aspect might be getting to him.

NJ

Dear Looking4,

I hope you won't mind my joining in your thread. I have very little expertise with the MB programme and I feel that I have some cheek to advise others! I have tried to restore my marriage without a proper programme of action such as the Harley one, and I would not hold my recovery as a success story.

I very much admire you for having posted in the first place, asking as you did the question about honesty. You seemed to have realised before you posted that confessing was the right thing to do, and you did not take the coward's way out, but posted here for strength. You then acted on advice that seems contrary to common sense; that telling your H would be the only hope you had of building a strong marriage. You are facing up to the consequences of your actions with courage, and I admire you for that also.

Having read Dr. Harley's views on marriage, I have come to realise that some BSs and WSs (certainly I and my H) need to examine and perhaps change the moral principles under which they have operated thus far. My very first post this board was a long ramble about contemporary morality and marriage. It didn't spark the debate I hoped it would, but if you read it (by clicking on my name and viewing that post, number 1 of mine) you might see what I am trying to get at here, with you.

On 24 October you wrote this to Mama2boys:

(Quote)
Does the OW's husband know about the A? If he was told, do you think he would put a stop to them moving back into the building? I personally am not a proponant of telling the OM/OW's BS, but in this case it seems essentional that he knows what he's moving back into.

I have only just noticed that statement, which went unchallenged on that thread. It might seem odd for me to bring it up now, but I think it's important that you look at your attitude to honesty if you want to build a new marriage. You made a difficult personal discovery when your H forced you recently to look closely at the events before you married, and I would like to suggest that you continue with that self-examination now.

It isn't just in cases like Mama2boys' that the other BH needs to know. It is not only necessary to tell the other spouse when there is imminent threat of the affair re-igniting.

The other BS should be told because it is the right thing to do. He or she is the victim of the moral crime of adultery. We would never say that that victims of theft should not be told of the crime about which they are unaware, and yet we often say this about adultery.

I said this about my H's affair. For about 18 months after I discovered (in 2005) that he had continued the affair for two years after my first discovery (in 2003), I thought I should not tell her OWH. I thought that it would be morally wrong to do so, to take action that would cause needless and great unhappiness to someone because his wife had hurt me.

I discovered her H's identity easily on the internet less than a week after my second D Day, and yet, as I say, I thought it wrong for a long time to contact him. When I did it was only to stop the repeated contact from her. It was only after I did contact him that I realised how morally wrong I had been not to have told him straight away.

Not only had I facilitated continuation of the affair, but I did nothing while my H broke OWH's and his children's hearts. OWH knew something was wrong in his marriage but he put this down to its growing stale over the 20+ years. However, much worse than this, his children, who were teenagers, early during the affair discovered texts from my H on their mother's phone. They decided together not to tell their father, because they did not want to see him hurt and their home broken up. They had a vague knowledge of their mother's earlier affair, and they remembered how sickening that had been for their father. They took the wrong decision not to tell their father, but that is understandable; they were children. They then had to go on to watch their mother grow further and further away from their father, and from them, to the point that she moved out the marital home to live in another country on weekdays "to pursue her career". They knew the reason why their mother was behaving as she was and, in their innocence, they thought it right not to tell.

Now, I didn't know OW and her H's identities for some of the time while this was happening, but even after I did, I did nothing, and I have no excuse. I was not a child. My warped view of right and wrong caused an awful lot of damage that I could have stopped, and I regret bitterly the damage I allowed my H to cause to other innocent people, especially the children.

Moral cowardice can have practical consequences for oneself, but it is worse to allow those consequences to fall on other people. I can accept that my having allowed the affair to continue backfired on me, but I feel pain over the effect that my cowardice had on these children, and their father. I have apologised many times to OWH - we talked for a while after my exposure - and he says that I have nothing to apologise for. I disagree, but worse, I have never apologised to his children, and I should.

I should not post in your thread to tell my story, and I have a bad habit of doing this (somebody slap me!), but I'm really try to talk about something else here, not me. I'm trying to say that being a moral person is a state of mind and a choice we make, because we learn and accept the fundamental difference between right and wrong. We should not do only the things in our marriages that, on a cost-benefit basis, bring about improvements to us. Perhaps especially after an affair we should be thinking about morality, and right and wrong, as a way of life. The cowards way out should never again be taken.

I think that you probably are undergoing such a change in mindset; certainly I wish my H would take a look at his conscience as you are doing. If I can use a word that is very ironic in the circumstances, your BH is lucky to have a repentant (F) WS like you. I'd just like to suggest that you might be able write the F in your FWW status big, bold, and underscored if you choose morality always from now on, and not convenience.

I know you said that OMW in your situation already knows of your affair. How did she find out?

Everyone's situation differs but the punches will stop/lessen at some point because even the BS can only take so much. It takes a lot of energy to be THAT angry all the time. I punched my FWH up for a good 3-4 weeks...not every moment of every day but enough to make me feel "normal" for about 8 secs before returning to my private he//.

I can not emphasize this enough L4, tell your H the truth when he asks for it. Nothing ticks off a BS more than the WS STILL lying to his face...the lies can destroy your M for good and even the spouses themselves. Don't go there.

ETA: As far as him not going to church, your H may feel ashamed to go. He's angry and obviously not acting in a way that is pleasing to God. That or feeling the hypocrisy my be eating at him.

Read that paragraph again...

And again...

And again...

Keep reading it over and over until you are sick of hearing it...
Then read it again...

You simply cannot lie at all at this point about anything. Any lie will be the dagger in the heart all over again.No matter how much he loves you, your husband simply cannot take any lies and still come out the other side of this wanting you and wanting to be with you. It won't be lack of commitment that will drive him away and won't even be anger over the affair. It will be the lies that will kill his love for you. Each lie kills him (and his love for you) a little more than the last.

You just can't lie ever again.

You saw the look on his face when you confessed. You could see how much he hurt. You've seen it replay itself since then. A lie does it all over again. It betrays his trust and his belief in you just like the first time he found out.

Even worse than that, it destroys his belief and trust in himself to judge what is true and what is not.

If you do nothing else right from here on out, get this part right. Lies of omission count just the same as those of commission.

Not saying you have been lying, just saying you can't ever again and recover from this as a couple.

Mark

The FOM and I had verbally committed to ending the affair -- no more intamacy, communication only during work hours, and other boundaries. (I know, I know... What I know now is that no A can be ended without total NC, but we thought we were doing right.) We still worked together -- though long distance, two time zones apart. Three weeks later I had an anxiety attack and ended up emailing my co-managers that I had to take the rest of the day off. My H was out of town on business. FOM got the email and called me to ask what was wrong. I broke down and could barely breathe. I couldn't talk and said I'd email him. I did, detailing that I didn't love my H, I was lost, didn't know what I was doing, blah blah blah. I was a complete mess. The email had nothing erotic but was chalk full of my emotional brokenness. FOM had JUST gotten a new phone and downloaded my email to his mobile to read it. He must not have deleted it because she read it a couple days later. I have no idea how she approaced him or what was said. I just know I got a text from him saying that she had read the email, the day had come, he didn't love me, he was fighting for his marriage, don't ever contact him again, etc. FOM's W had been susupicious of me for some time, I guess. And she had been checking up on him for a few months. He covered his tracks every time, except then. And as you know, it takes only once.

Thank you for your answer. Looking4.

What you wrote brings me to something you said earlier. I know you have explained that you were only venting when you wrote about feeling used, but I wonder if you have really dealt with your responsibilities in getting involved in another person's marriage.

You wrote:

So why am I still so mad at OM? I was spewing to my H about it two days ago. I feel that the OM exploited my vulnerabilities and broken marriage to get in my pants then kicked me to the curb like garbage once his W found out, even though the OM and I had ended it ourselves before. I know, I know, I know... I deserve no sympathy. And doing NC quick and abrupt was needed for all of us. I know all of this in my head. But it doesn't make it feel any better, knowing how completely used I was for the OM's thrills. I thought I was in love with this man and that I was smarter than that. And I feel like he's laughing at me about it. He and his wife are moving on and I really do want that if that's what she wants. (Dang, she has no idea the things he told me. She would so be out the door if she knew, even if they were just lies.) But there's the little piece of me that is still so angry about how he used me, lied to me, then left me in a heap on the side. Again, I know that's how it has to be and that affairs don't have happy endings. But I'm angry that I'm left standing here known as the home-wrecking wh**e and he's merrily going along like all's well that ends well. Obviously, I'm still grappling with this. Sorry 'bout that little rant (end quote).

You should not assume for one minute that "he and his wife are moving on", if by that you mean that his wife is not paying dearly for your involvement in her marriage. I would suggest that she is shattered by this and that her world has come to an end. You would do well to read the many stories by BSs here about the moment of discovery and gain a glimmer of insight into how devastating that moment feels. Your words to OM showed her that, not only had her husband been having a sexual relationship with you, but that deep feelings (perhaps words of love) had been expressed by both of you and that he had considered leaving her and their children for you. If you told him that your life was as bad as you said in your post, then she would have known instantly that he had told you that his life was the same.

She found out in a text message that her H did not love her, was suffering seeing her face first thing every morning, was merely enduring her kisses as he left the house and returned from work, was hating lying next to her in bed and wishing you were there instead, was hating spending weekends with her when he could not escape to work and had longed for their last holiday to be over because he could not stand pretending to be happy for extended periods in her company. For some time now he had wanted to get away from her, her boring parents, the tedious get togethers with friends in which happiness was being faked, the hypocritical wedding anniversary dinner at a restaurant that he had had to pretend to enjoy, his having had to sign cards to her with "love you always, X" when he hadn't meant it... he had hated everything about his unhappy lie of a marriage to her. He had wanted to be far away from everything to do with her, except for their children. He loved his children enough to try and give them stable childhoods, but every day was torture, and she had not known this until that moment. However difficult things had grown to be between them, she had never realised that he must be feeling THAT BAD, and she saw it in that moment she picked up his phone. You cannot imagine how that felt, but I can, because that is what happened to me (D Day 2).

What your OMW went on to do was to listen to him ask her not to give up on the marriage, to his telling her that he loved her and always had done, that he had not stayed only for the children and would not be doing so now, if she gave the marriage another chance. She had not believed him and does not still, but she is prepared to put her children's needs above her own, for now, and so she is staying in the marriage. She is living with monumental unhappiness because she knows her children would be badly affected by divorce, and she cannot bear to put her happiness above theirs. I don't know what he told her about his feelings for you, about the depth of your involvement and about what he had actually told you about loving you and leaving her. Be assured, however, that if she is prepared to try again in this marriage, she is choking on her misery over how intimate he became with you.

Quote:
(Dang, she has no idea the things he told me. She would so be out the door if she knew, even if they were just lies.)

It is very likely that she has by now found out the nature of the things he told you. Do you think that she is only prepared to stay because he has managed to pass off the affair as a fling, in which he was cool and upfront about what he wanted from you? Do you think that she has not demanded more details from him, that she has not challenged him when he gave the "light" version of the affair ("why is she saying these things about her feelings for you, if you never said them to her?"), that she has not picked him up endlessly on inconsistencies and illogical statements, that she has not asked him to show her previous emails between you and discovered the basic, appalling details of how far this relationship went?

You've made an apology to her, but I wonder whether you have really thought about what you have done to her. Certainly, you seem to think that their marriage is relatively untroubled, and that he is "merrily" going on with his life, and by implication, she with hers.

She is doing no such thing. She is thinking every minute when she is awake, and having bad dreams in her sleep, about whether he is lying about his feelings for her and cannot stand her, about whether he feels repulsion when she initiates sex and he makes an effort only because he has not got you, whether he cannot bear the way she feels inside, is disgusted by her stretch marks (that he gave her, with their children), finds her stringy breasts revolting and her ageing face and grey hairs peeking through, difficult to look at.

He probably feels no such thing, but she will not know that now, or for some time yet. He had a thrilling affair with you, a woman that he had long been attracted to, and so must find gorgeous. How does he come down from that and go back to loving the woman that he was driven away from?

When she works out, as I have done, that the problem is not with her but with her H, she will not feel any better. She will then be faced with trying to rebuild a marriage with a man who had no appreciation for what he has with her, no commitment to extraordinary protection for her or his marriage, no compunction about destroying his children's futures for sex on the side and only the fear of getting caught to stop him becoming involved with someone else further down the line.

She isn't feeling good about her life or her marriage and it will be a long time before she does again. You should acknowledge that, and never write about her again as if she is untouched by this and you are the victim.

Hi, SugarCane. I'm sorry for what you are going through. I don't know what it's like, but I see it on my husband since I confessed so I have an example of the hurt of a betrayed spouse before me every day.

All I did for a few months before my first post on MB was read the pain of BSs on this site and others. I knew I had to understand what I had done. I have to understand so that I will never ever do this again to my H nor anyone else.

He always told me that he loved his wife, that he would never leave her, and that he had a great marriage. I never once asked him to leave her. Not once. That's why I was confused by his motivations to have me in his virtual life. He loved his wife, had a very active and passionate sex life with her, great kids, successful career, his wife took care of him and the house, they had fun vacations, he was respected in his church... This is what he told me, anyway.

He worked from home. I worked a couple thousand miles away from him. We saw each other on one business trip during our 3+ month affair, all contact was otherwise by phone or digital. All of this desparate unhappiness your H was experiencing above may or may not have been true for my FOM. But it's not at all what he told me. He enjoyed their family gatherings and would tell me all about them. He never told me his life was even remotely bad or horrible. He always expressed to me that he loved his wife which is why he was tormented -- he said he loved us both. His perfect world, he told me one day, would be to stay married to his lovely wife and have me as his mistress indefinitely. I know I know I know... I should have run then -- fast and very far away. It's all so sick.

I know. I believe this. I am seeing it and hearing it in my own BH.

You're absolutely correct in that I don't know if she'd be out the door if she knew all that he told me. That comment was made out of disbelief because on the surface anyway, I think I would be. But who knows until you're in that position. I have no idea what she knows.

I think about her often. I have cried many tears for her and the impact I've had on her life. I pray for her and her family every day.

Her life is upside down. And his life is changed too. I didn't write that her life is merry. I saracstically meant his -- which of course is not independent of hers. My sarcasm came because it is as if he had his cake, he had the frosting, and he still has his life as he's known it. Their marriage is forever changed. My H has been in contact with both the BW and the FOM. I haven't read her emails, but my H told me in an email that, "FOM has a job, has a wife who is committed to him, had his office fling with you, and seems to be cruising along just fine. That has to be insult to injury [to you], and I'll admit, I get some satisfaction from this fact." That information in an email from my H is how I derived that the FOM is doing fine. But I was being snotty. FOM and his BW are working to save their marriage and I truly hope that if they BOTH want that, that they make it work.

He never acted driven away from her to me. There may have been problems in their marriage on some level or he wouldn't have done this. He supposedly always loved her so I don't know how he does this. Our affiar wasn't all about sex. And his love life from what he told me was very healthy -- his W took good care of him in every way. I don't understand how he could have done this to her. And I don't understand why I let him, why I participated in it.

I have acknowledged this, SC. I told the BW specifically in my only email to her all that I am sorry for. Not just for having an affair with her H, but for every act I did against her.

I am so NOT the victim in this affair and don't know that I've ever claimed to be at any time throughout this thread. I do feel (inappropriately) victimized by the FOM for pursuing me during a time of great weakness in my life -- and he knew this. But I do not blame the FOM nor anyone else but myself for the affair. If I implied that, I apologize. And I don't know where among these nearly three weeks of posts that I've stated the BW is untouched by this. I thought I showed concern for her a few times when I asked whether I should apologize to her.

I guess I was out of line feeling hurt about how the FOM treated me. I see now that I'm not allowed feel anything any more for a man who professed his love to me over and over and promised to be there for me as I was flailing in my life. A man who was a good, genuine friend for 5 years before this all happened. He disappeared in a text message and left me for garbage. I know people here feel I deserve that. And I feel the same way. But that doesn't mean it doesn't hurt. I was duped and while I am angry at me for being so very very stupid, I feel great sadness for my BH and the BW. I am confused why I still have any feelings for the FOM -- the hate, the hurt and even a tad bit of sympathy. I thought I'd share my feelings here to try to gain some understanding about it. I'm sorry for sounding selfish. I was just hurting and confused. This site has been my lifeline as I'm trying to do the right thing in saving my marriage and I felt compelled to share this remaining struggle I'm having. I can't share these feelings any more with my H and am no longer seeing my therapist. And now I know I can't share them here either. I'll keep all thoughts about the FOM to myself and learn to deal with them another way. I'm sorry for any offense.

Yes, of course you are allowed. Fellings are just that. We can choose to act on them, validate them, or realize we are being irrational. Depending your choice, they will either increase, remain constant, or dissipate in time.


L4, I am a little confused by this. On more than one post you mention being abandoned like garbage. It seems the FOM made it very clear to you that he had no intention of leaving his W, ergo you would have been the OW forever or there would be a breakup. Did you really expect any other outcome?


L4, please keep venting here. Most of us are not here to judge and actually want to help. I am rooting for you, L4. You have learned from your mistakes and are trying like he77 to make amends.

Hang in there.

- Sh0cked

looking4

"I guess I was out of line feeling hurt about how the FOM treated me. I see now that I'm not allowed feel anything any more for a man who professed his love to me over and over and promised to be there for me as I was flailing in my life. A man who was a good, genuine friend for 5 years before this all happened. He disappeared in a text message and left me for garbage."

In time you will realize that a good man, not even a good friend will have an affair at the least. But then to just dump you as if you were nothing but some means to provide varity to his sex life. This is why it hurts. No one should have to hurt. But with time the pain fades.

"I know people here feel I deserve that. And I feel the same way."

No you don't. You slipped up. You manned up and confessed to your BH and apologized to the OMW.

"I was duped and while I am angry at me for being so very very stupid"

Yes you were. So was you BH and the OMW.

"I am confused why I still have any feelings for the FOM"

Being in an affair is an addiction to the chemical high your body received from the affair. This is why NC. Only with NC will you go through withdrawal for the OM. Then the feelings will go away for the OM.

"I'm sorry for any offense."

No offense in my book, you confessed instead of being found out.
Don't give up on sharing here. Some, because they are new here don't know when it's best to temper their guidance. Sometimes though we need to be direct. We want you to heal and recover your marriage.

Nope, I didn't think we'd be together but I always thought we would at least be friends as we had been for years. I didn't know how post-affair relationships were supposed to work, so I was in LaLa Land about it, I guess. We had broken up. Not the way we were supposed to with NC (didn't know) but had cut off intamacy. We were acting as "friends", obviously friends with a wrongful past and inapprorprite ties, but we had broken up as lovers. FOM had promised that we would get beyond the mess we had made together and that he would always be someone I could go to as I was trying to find my way through my marriage and my job. Again, in hindsight this is messed up because once you're lovers and you have this secret, it can never be a regular friendship again. (I know this NOW.) What hurt was that someone I had deep feelings for told me, "You can count on me no matter what, I care for you very much, and you're not alone," to then two days later typing on a phone screen words that meant "You mean nothing to me and I want nothing more to do with you. Too bad." Made me feel completely unvalued, unimportant. Worthless. Someone not worth caring for after all. And I was already getting those you're-not-important signs from my H so it was hard. The FOM for a few months claimed he was different, my H was a fool, and that I was worthy of a man's attention. Then in a heartbeat he proved his true colors and that indeed I wasn't worthy of concern.

But that was then. I'm here now. I was just sharing that last emotional tie up in anger that I still have with the FOM. I'll get over it. I'm sure.

Thanks.

And I appreciate it direct. Thank you.


Why? Today even my H doesn't want this for us.