This is so important for H to understand. He clearly does not want to talk about your problems through a 3rd party, who forever after will know things about your marriage that should be private. She's not a specialist or a councillor and he rightly resents what he sees as his having to talk to her about your private problems.

Well, he should be reassured. You are not asking the mediator to talk about your problems and try and find solutions. She is not the kind of mediator that deals with family breakdown and tries to help a couple come to a solution without the involvement of solicitors. She does not need to know the ins and outs of his feelings about you, OW, where it all went wrong, what he finds difficult about the marriage, why he strayed or anything else.

Since the issues of managing child swaps is largely taken care of by your being in Ireland, her only role now is to let you know when he has dumped ho bag and wants to talk about reconciling. When he tells her that, he will no longer have to talk through her and may talk to you directly, if you are still interested in reconciliation.

If he chooses to talk to the mediator about his feelings, and she chooses to listen, then that has nothing to do with you and you should make sure that you don't hear about it. If he does not like talking to strangers about your problems he does not have to. He only needs to end the affair and then he can talk to you.

Have you thought about your conditions for reconciliation? From what I have seen, it would be good for you to draft your conditions here and have them thrashed out.
You need to make a list of the things you want and only cease Plan B when they are all met. If a change of career or a house move are conditions, you should say so. There should be no compromise available to him about your conditions.

Other things I've seen on lists include counselling with the Harleys and a post-nuptual agreement giving you financial security in the event of a recurrence.

What's happening this weekend?

I am not knocking the mediator at all, since not everyone is supremely confident in their cape of power.

The best response from the mediator to his request...

To WH: Thank you for your recent communcation.

Does your request mean you are willing to meet Tully's conditions for recovery? If you are, I will pass that along to her. Otherwise, I will continue to relay important information about the children, as per her instructions.


To Tully: Nothing.

Thanks, all. The girls spoke to WH last night (Friday) and he still had not booked a flight but talked about coming this weekend all the same. This is typical of him, he is dreading coming here and facing the situation so he will avoid it for as long as he can, hoping that something will magically happen to save him, but then things get worse because he doesn't tackle the situation.

As for the mediator, I really think the best thing is to communicate by email with her and I've hinted at that but I don't want her to think that it's her i don't want to talk to. I've suggested that she might speak to my sister if she has any questions or if there is something she's not sure about. I hate making this a big drama and surrounding myself with a circle of people but i do know that it upsets me to have to defend myself against WH.

I will think about a list of conditions for reconciliation but from what people have said here I got the impression that many of them like true remorse and making real efforts to reassure me that to rebuilt trust tend to come naturally once the fog has been blown away. (at least that's what I'm hoping)

I have planned some fun things to do today with the girls so I'm hoping to forget about him for a while.

Just to say that I got an email from the mediator (sent late last night) to say that WH is coming today and will be at our house at 1.30pm. I'll have to change my plans for today and he hasn't confirmed how long he will be staying or if he wants to see them tomorrow too. Oh well, the girls will be happy to see him.
I'll give you the update after his visit.

Make sure you keep their passports with you, on your person!

Very good advice!

How are you doing, Tully? You should give yourself a few more days to rest before trying to pull yourself up by your bootstraps. It's ok to be sad, and anything else.

In a few days you can begin pushing yourself a bit. A whole new chapter of your life is beginning, and a wonderful one at that. Stick with your plan, and at the end you'll have one of two beautiful things. 1) A repentant FWH who reommits to you and your marriage, or 2) A beautiful, healed self, ready to go out and take on the world. You can't lose.

Keep your faith. This is going to end well for you, no matter what.

Oh, gosh, me either! I'd find it VERY difficult to be the MB mediator between two people I cared about. I don't think you were aiming that comment at me, Neak, but I chose to respond to your post because you said it so well.

Tully, I hope you understand we're not criticizing the mediator, just suggesting ways they can perform the role even better, to properly protect you from the pain and chaos of your WH's thoughts and behaviors.

I don't wear my Cape of Power all the time anymore, lololol, it's pretty heavy. But I can whip it out in a flash when I need it. The whole reason I even HAVE a COP (hee hee) is because of the very specific things I've been through.

Some people, I suspect Melody Lane to be one of them, just naturally had a COP, even before going through an A. I didn't. I was a total pushover, with maybe every 10 years or so, something happening to get me riled enough to display a hint of future Cape potential.

Pre-A, I would not have been nearly as strong an intermediary as Tully's current one. I always want to please everyone, and IM's just can't do that. So I have lots of sympathy for her - it's not easy to take that much heat at all, and she hasn't even had the advantage of our fiery training.

I was an IM once, for a majorly stinkum WS. You would to see some of the garbage that was sent to me. Very personal, vicious attacks, even threatening litigation. (Which the BS's attorney assured us in writing was impossible to succeed at, as long as I was respectful in my communications. Of course, I always am!) Having been in that particular trench myself, I have tremendous respect for anyone who agrees to the responsibility, and then does their best to carry it out.

Good advice, KaylaAndy. I did keep the passports with me although I doubt that he would have put the kids through the drama of a tug-of-war but better to be safe. He arrived at the house half an hour early and I thought it was my brother so I asked the girls to answer the door. When I heard their excited shouts I grabbed my bag and dashed out the backdoor. I hid for a few minutes and then went to a neighbour's house who is a wonderful support through all this. I had another narrow escape later in the day at the park when I asked my friend to get the car by herself and to pick me up in a less dangerous place and he drove into the carpark just as she was driving out. But in the end neither of us saw each other.
My brother tackled WH when he brought the kids back but my sister advised him not to tell me the detail of what was said. My brother just said that WH didn't say anything particularly bad about me, just that he is angry, doesn't understand what I'm doing and doesn't see that what he did was so very, very wrong.

Neak, I know you are right about the future even if it's not always easy to face. I am starting to make plans for the short and medium term to help me get back on track. I'm not sure about the Cape. Maybe I should go and get fitted out for one!
The mediator is a very strong person but she is also someone who has believed until now that WH can be reached and changed back through logic and discussion. I have now realised that this won't work but she's not quite convinced yet. Still, she's doing a great job and I really hope that I will keep her as a friend no matter what way this goes.

Lol, it won't take long for WH to convince her himself...

So you made it through the first visit. (How long is he staying?) The next one will be smoother. Any time you have close calls like you did, or a flurry of drama, no worries. It's just an opportunity for you to see how to avoid it the next time.

He may never see it.
But whether or not he ever does, YOU have taken steps to protect yourself from living the rest of your life with a man who doesn't "get" what boundaries are all about, and as a result trods roughshod over your feelings and emotional (and eventually physical) health.

Hi Turtlehead, I'm a little confused by your last message. Are you saying that, even if Plan B 'works' and we go into recovery, that I may have to accept that he won't ever fully accept the wrongness of what he did or are you implying that Plan B may not work because he never acknowledges his misdoing?

Are you having doubts about Plan B working in my case? Do the chances of success reduce as time goes on or is that not linked? Sorry for asking such difficult to answer questions. I know that you can't predict the future but just wondering what your gut feeling is.

Neak, he left here yesterday and was staying in Dublin before flying out this morning. He said one thing that worries me to my brother. He said that she is in Ireland already (as if this is proof that she is out of the picture) but yet he was in a big hurry to leave here yesterday evening and get back to Dublin. Was he meeting her? Two days before i left she said that she wouldn't leave Ireland for at least a month but then once I am here she moves over within a week.
I know that sexual contact between them in France would have been difficult because she was living in her parents and he was in our home and a hotel becomes a deliberate decision. Whereas if she has a place here in Ireland and he's coming to Ireland every week then it would be much easier. I know, I know, I shouldn't torture myself over this but it's hard to block out the thoughts.

You won't go into recovery if he doesn't acknowledge that his behavior has been unacceptable. So your first supposition, that if Plan B 'works' and you go into recovery, and may have to accept that he won't ever fully accept the wrongness of what he did - that's definitely not what I meant. He has to accept the wrongness before you would ever consider letting him back into your life. You worked so very hard to get his mistreatment of you OUT of your life, you would be insane to pretend to reconcile with him if he didn't understand that his behavior was unacceptable and why.

Your second supposition is closer, but still not what I was trying to say. I must not have expressed myself well at all - sorry! If he doesn't come around quickly and drop OW and commit to the marriage, then you will continue in Plan B for many months. I was saying it's possible he'll never "get" it but that wouldn't mean Plan B had failed. Eventually you will have built a new life with a new circle of friends and activities. A life that he is not part of. And you'll wake up one day and realize that your love for him has died, and you'll be ready to move on, and he'll not yet have "gotten" it.

Plan B keeps your last little bit of love on reserve for much longer than it would have lasted if you'd continued in Plan A. It gives WH time to "wake up" and realize what he's done, and what his actions have cost him. But if you are married to someone who is unwilling or incapable of committing to the marriage, then Plan B protects you from further hurt by allowing you to slowly build your own life and get your feet under you. The pain and chaos of Plan A is behind you, and now you just focus on yourself.

Plan B will work, no matter what your WH decides to do. Either he'll come around and you'll have the reserves of love left to work with him on the marriage, or your H won't come around and you'll have become a strong independent person by then. Either way, you win.

But... you are in Plan B and this is not a time to try and second guess what he is thinking or doing. This is a time to focus on being close to your family, and doing some things that you enjoy. Find a job if you like, or take a class, or pursue a new hobby.

Hi tully,

I think you are right about his seeing her in Ireland. I base that on his "not seeing what he did terribly wrong" and not yet showing an urgent need to get get you back home.

I don't think your H's affair was the same as my H's - mine was having fun, and knew that he would end it one day and he would never leave us, despite appearances to the contrary during the repeated D Days. My H kept seeing OW after each D Day because he was convinced I would never find out, since she lived abroad. Your H's affair isn't quite like that, I think.

However, I do think that your H and mine are similar in their views of affairs not being terrible crimes. Yours seems to have treated you with the same mixture of lofty amusement, sarcasm, irritation, indifference, stubbornness and "none of your business" as mine did for a long time. I'm not sure that yours is hopelessly in love anymore, if he ever was, but I do think he still feels he can somehow continue to have his affair and have his marriage back. For that reason I would predict that he will behave as my H did for some time.

I think that, now that you have left and he has not decided to be with her, it is clear that he does not want to be with her enough to end his marriage. If he ends up with her it will be by default, not as first choice. She knows that too. I think the gloss is already rubbing off their affair.

You, however, are not supposed to hear anything about their relationship while you are in Plan B. As turtlehead says, you are not supposed to second-guess what he is doing; you have taken the decision to remove yourself from the affair drama and you must not be vicariously involved in it by receiving second-hand information.

Where did your H spend time with the kids on Saturday? Where did you go?

Earlier, you asked a question about Plan B and two years and another about whether accidental contact in the distant future is a serious threat to the marriage. By coincidence, these questions are being discussed on SDCWoman's thread "Question about recovery and NC", which has just started on GQ2. Do try and read it.

I searched the site for a long time to find Dr Harley's statement that men, especially, retain feelings for OP and can restart the affair years later, but I cannot find it. SDCWoman's thread says that it is on P177 of SAA, so I hope you have that book and can read the advice in context. However, I know I read it here before I bought the book, which I only did this summer. I'll keep looking on the site, in case you don't have a copy of the book.

When I was searching for that advice I re-read all the letters about unfaithful husbands and wives, and all the articles about how affairs begin, how they should end and how the marriage should be restored, and I saw that in almost every one Dr Harley advises moving house. He advises this even when the affair was essentially a workplace affair and not one between neighbours. This is obviously because most people work not too far from where they live, so the workplace-based affair partner will live not too far from the marital home. There will be no secure NC if there is a chance that the affair partners will meet, nor any peace of mind for the BS.

There is clear advice to change jobs where the affair partners worked in the same place. I could not find any specific advice about career changes in situations like your H's, where even a job change might not mean secure NC, but I think you must see future contact as a serious threat.

Whether you want to recommit to a marriage in which your H has latent feelings for another person, and must be actively kept away from her, is a serious consideration. That issue is being discussed on SDCWoman's thread.

As turtlehead says, though, you absolutely should not recommit to a marriage in which he does not see his affair as terribly wrong, and does not change his treatment of you. If I'm correct in my description of his lofty disdain etc, you should stay well away. Such behaviour indicates that he is continuing his affair or would see nothing wrong in starting another affair in the future. Why would you want to go back to a marriage in which you were being treated like that?

Very good advice. Especially the part about not worrying what he does right now.

What nice things are you going to do, for you?

I'm glad that you plan to act on BR's suggestions.

So when are you going to plant the sign in OW's front garden?

tully,

Here are the nice things I did for me during the last week alone. Please tell me which ones you are already doing, which you intend to take up and where you are already exceeding my efforts.

Last week:
Monday: Pedicure. Even in winter when you cannot wear sandals you need to have sexy feet. You will smile at your toes every time you see them.

Friday: Eyebrow threading. As with the sexy feet, there are very skilled Asian therapists in our major cities who transform your looks for a very small fee. Eyebrow threading gives you a lovely brow line.

Sunday, Wednesday and Thursday: 4-mile run in the park. Running costs only the price of a pair of trainers per 6 months and a cheap tracksuit that lasts for ages. Results: fabulous leg tone, general all-round good looks and a boost to the ago.

At least twice last week: various bits of body maintenance too private to give details of here, but essential to the goddess look and feel.

Every day:

Wore subtle make-up and NO OLD CLOTHES. Wore elegant clothes that flatter my shape, plus lacy tights and heels, to work.

You must try and do something that makes you feel good about yourself every single day. I promise you that it works.

Thank you for clarifying, turtlehead. I will try to remain serene amid the confusion. I do believe you that all this will work out for the best in the long run but there are occasions my heart won't believe it.

Sugar, if only you knew how much your long posts console me and keep my spirits up. I'm afraid I haven't done very much on your list except that I do go for a long brisk walk most days, weather permitting and I do love that. As for eyebrow threading, I don't even know what that is. I am wearing light make-up almost every day. I'm mostly a jeans sort of woman but at least I now wear higher heels with them much more even if that makes me tower over most people.

But now back to the trials and tribulations of WH. As I mentioned I have a strong suspicion (actually a conviction) that WH and OW were together in Dublin on Monday night and I also think it's fairly likely that they slept together that night because she would have done everything in her power to make that happen and he is too weak to say no. Anyway I rang the lab yesterday morning and spoke to the PA of Big Boss who told me that OW had arrived on the 13th of Nov. 2 days before I left France she sent a message to the secretary to say that she wouldn't be going for at least a month but as soon as I go she's there a week later. I think this is because she knows, as I do, that the key to WH is sex and it would have been much more difficult to initiate sex in France as he is in our house, she is in her parents and booking into a hotel is a bit too deliberate, at least for the first time. Whereas in Ireland she can invite him to her flat or hotel and it's much easier for one thing to lead to another, especially as he is saying that he'll be coming every weekend to see the girls. (How we are going to afford this, I don't know but that's not the point right now, I know)

Anyway, I was so mad I sent an email to Big Boss asking him if he would see me for a little while tomorrow morning about an important matter. (better to see him face to face than over the phone) Later in the day, when I didn't get a reply I rang his direct line and spoke to him. He was so lovely to me saying that he was very busy but that for me he could always find a few minutes. But as I said he is a real bear and if he doesn't like someone, the claws are out and he doesn't hold back. I have an appointment to see him at 11.30am tomorrow and my sister is insisting on driving me to Dublin as soon as the kids are at school. Do you have any advice for me on this? I know that WH will be really mad at me about this and my sister questioned if this might be a 'bridge too far' for him in terms of coming back to the marriage. I told her that in any case if he wanted to, he'd build a bridge of his own if I didn't.

Honestly, I don't think I would do this if OW had gracefully bowed off the scene and if WH and I were on the right tracks but I think it would bankrupt my LB completely if he comes to see the kids for a few hours on several weekends and then spends the rest of the weekend with her. (Although I will admit to a certain perverse vengeful pleasure in making her miserable )
However, do any of you think this is not a good idea given that I am supposed to be in Plan B and ignoring everything that WH is doing? I could cancel the meeting if you all think I shouldn't go. Any views?