I think so. And I think this is the behavior I was thinking you were trying to "grow out of". I wasn't complaining about you, or saying you'd hurt my feelings. I meant that you may be further along than I am in this case, so my advice (in this case) may tend to pull you backwards.

If I think of something I feel might be helpful, I'll let you know.


No and no, although I've read HNHN. Is there something in the LB book that would help me, when I'm already trying to not LB? I think I have a pretty good handle on not LBing, do you think I need to work on something? If *I* stop LBing but H continues, then is there something in the book to help me cope with that?


*sigh* yes.

So I was using the "Local Help" searching tool to see if there's any MC in the area that follow MB stuff. Searching on the nearest city, the zip code with 75 miles around, the state and the nearest neighboring state all yielded 0 results. So I thought I'd search on the country - you know, for me that's the continental U.S. But just regular U.S.A. isn't listed; U.S. outlying islands is, and also American Guam I think. But looking through the list of countries is pretty interesting. Antarctica is listed. (returns 0 results) Also, Nauru is listed. That's an island country in the South Pacific that I've been absolutely intrigued with ever hearing an NPR report on it. For awhile they were the richest per capita country in the *world*, due to mining or harvesting of the bird poop of all the birds that had rested there in their migrations across the ocean. But now the bird poop has run out and they are broke. They've tried maintaining sources of income by providing banking services for untraceable off-shore accounts. They've tried selling their U.N. votes to China and then to Hong Kong. More recently they were providing refugee camps for ppl turned away from Australia.

Almost everything has to be shipped in, even much of the drinking water, on the national airplane. Yes I said airplane, not airline. I think for awhile the plane was grounded for lack of funds. I think it's running again now though. Something like a couple flights a week.

Their president or king or prime minister was an olympic wrestler, I think. They had a coup or something last spring, the president (PM?) dissolved parliament (or the senate?) because they held a vote on a holiday and locked the doors so their opponents (some other of the voting members) couldn't get in. I forget the details, but it's all absolutely fascinating. Some time if you're bored or can't get to sleep, google Nauru. On second thought, here I'll save you the trouble:

http://www.lonelyplanet.com/worldguide/nauru/

It's really intriguing.

Ok I'm obsessed.

Jayne, no, email doesn't count. What do you think about what I said?

Jayne, I may be a little biased. When I got here, and saw that folks started with LBs, I got the LB book first. That was good for me, because I got here with a lot of LBs. Like DJs. Like cat pointed out, I have a way I think that things should be, and my default is to despair or decide to wait it out as a default. I am working to replace that with acceptance and action. I've shared that this isn't just H giving me a hard time, that I needed to practice this in my parenting and on the job, too. I've had to back off of some close friendships and build new ones.


Jayne, my first guess here is that I think you DJ yourself. That you may put unreasonable expectations on your own shoulders. What do you think?

I wonder if it's a DJ that you try to make do with something that's not working for you. What do you think? I believe that your H will stand up to the plate if you try believing in him again, especially if you two are working with the Harleys or a marriage coach that sticks very close to the concepts. I believe that your H may enjoy 15 hours UA time with you. Have you tried to plan this? Would you be willing to line up a sitter?

I didn't mean to offend you about the neighbor. And I understand of course you will have conversations with other men. I don't think that is where the danger lies. I think the invitation to a problem comes in where the folks that you rely on for help are the same guys. Which I undersatnd isn't your situation today.

I am asking you to consider building a network of women friends who share your values. So you all need to ask for favors, you have that network available. To free you to ask for help when you need it.

Trying to work out my plan: here is something I wrote to myself quite some time ago:

I'm still frustrated with trying to communicate with * my H *. I want better communication and more communication between * my H *and me, and I want to set a better example for the kids.

My previous plan: I will review some of the articles on MB, and practice respectful requests and negotiating.

Trying to do this on my own just isn't working. Things get bad, he stonewalls or clams up if I try to discuss any problem, and I get frustrated and give up and accept silence. After a few days he acts friendly again and I figure I shouldn't hold a grudge and that I should keep trying to apply the MB principles which include me trying to be pleasant and meet his ENs and not LB. So then things go back to how they were, with nothing resolved, until the next time I try to talk to him about some problem.

So even me trying to practice the MB things like not LB, practicing POJA, bringing things up in a thoughtful respectful manner, don't seem to be working. At least in the way I'm implementing it, all it does is enable H to continue doing what he's doing, with the occasional 2 or 3 days' of angry silence. Followed by completely acting as if nothing was ever wrong on his part, due to my trying to not LB and to meet his ENs. His continued IB is paying off for him. He has no motivation to change.

This time my plan is to call the MB Counseling Center and set up a time to talk to someone. It seems this isn't something I can solve on my own.

I'm open to suggestions too though. I'll see about ordering the LB book if I can't find it here. I'll answer other questions too, later though cus I need to get some things done right now. (Cat, I wasn't sure exactly which part you were wanting me to comment on. I'll have to go look again.)

I'm glad to see you taking these steps. It's in line with what I was saying, which is that I think you can't do this on your own.
That I think someone who only gives you 10 sentences a day is not totally normal (forgive me for saying that, but he worries me). And this is coming from someone who hates to talk. I'm perfectly happy going all day just by myself. But his not talking is a serious issue in your marriage. I'm guessing there's some serious FOO stuff in there, and I just don't think you can ever resolve it without him working with a qualified professional. Assuming he would be willing to. Of course, there you are at that point, like ears, where you have to say what you are and aren't willing to live with for the next 40 years. Is it your hill to die on? It sure sounds like it, to me.

Argh argh argh argh argh!!!!!


I've waited all morning for H to leave on his business trip. He finally leaves, I get the kids dressed and out the door to daycare asap and come bac home to call the MB coaching center.

They are only open until 3 p.m. Central time!!!!! Which was about 57 minutes ago.

If I had called just as soon as H walked out the door I may have been able to call in time. I didn't know though, and I wanted to be able to call without interruption.

H will be gone all day tomorrow also, so theoretically I could call tomorrow. However Wednesdays are my busiest day of the week nowadays, with an evening class to teach in addition to working all day, and I will have to take care of the kids myself, picking them up from school, getting dinner and then taking them to my work. The one day of the week that H agreed to handle things. So it will be difficult to find time to come home to make a phone call in the middle of all that.

This morning H had an AO. He was throwing away some papers that I was saving for the kids to use (they go through tons of papers, they love drawing and writing stories and making things like paper airplanes etc). He'd already thrown away a lot, and I asked him to stop and not throw away any more. I was also afraid he was throwing away important things. I'm sort of like cat's H in that regard, throwing things away makes me anxious, you never know if you might have a need for it right after you get rid of it. I know it isn't completely healthy. I just wanted him to leave some of the papers for the kids.

I also had earlier been thinking that I could clean all those up while he was gone, putting the papers away where the kids could use them but they would be out of sight, and that he'd be happy when he came home in a couple days to see everything nice and neat. Instead I found him all angry and everything, and just throwing things away and puting all the other papers (bills, school work, my work) in a pile where I'll prolly never be able to find it again. I know where stuff is on the table. When he makes a pile, I figure that's his pile and I never look in it again. I've wasted a lot of time before lookign for papers that he's moved to someplace I would never have looked. This was a huge bone of contention in my old house, and I didn't want to start that here.

But right now we have NO furniture, NO drawers, NO shelves or cabinets, so of course the counter top is where the most important papers are going. Now it's almost empty, sure it looks nice but I'm just thinking there used to be a lot of papers that I'm pretty sure were important, and now I have no idea if they've been thrown away or what but the tiny amount of papers on the counter seems to indicate that a lot of papers are now missing.

So when I asked him to not through away any more (he'd already thrown away a LOT) he had an AO and yelled at me about how messy the house is. I asked him calmly to stop yelling. He yelled back that he'd stop yelling when I stopped telling him what to do. I said that I'm not yelling at him, and to please stop yelling at me. He yelled once more then stopped.

I'm so sick of this. I was watching the clock, waiting for him to leave. I even finally asked him when he was leaving.

When he walked out the door I was putting dishes away from the dishwasher. He said bye, I said bye without looking up. He said, Here let me give you a hug, and I glet him hug me without making eye contact. Since he won't make eye contact when I try to discuss anything with him, I don't want to make eye contact with him any more than necessary.

I was soooo wanting to set up an appointment. I know what I would want to do. But what I try to do isn't working. Right now, my inclination is to get the stupid house as clean as possible while he's gone, to take over everything with the kids - their scouts stuff, their homework, their chores and their allowance - without asking for any input from him. To get the chores list and allowances and a routine with homework established with the kids while he's gone. To finally finish with the shelf paper in all the rest of the house, to move the kids clothes into the drawers in their room and to put stuff away into the kitchen cabinets the way I want. To not ask his help for anything any more. To communicate only via email over necessary things.

I started taking over with my own IB stuff by calling the lawyer this morning while he was still here, because he was asking me to sign an extension on the money held in escrow. Somehow or other what I thought was $750 held back had been changed to $500. The real estate agent had suggested $750 or $500, H had said $500 was enough, I had wanted at least $500 $1000 (typo) but had agreed to $750. My initials are beside where the $750 had been crossed out and $500 had been written in, but I don't recall agreeing to that. When I asked H if he recalled agreeing to that change, he AO'ed again, saying that it didn't matter whether I remembered (a DJ), that we needed to sign the extension. I asked again, saying I just wanted to know, he kept AOing, saying what did I think, that someone had forged my initials? I asked again, just, did he remember agreeing to change it. He said, "I told you I don't remember!" I said that he'd just said that it didn't matter, he hadn't actually said he didn't remember.

Anyway. So that's two AO's this morning. But it resulted in me calling the lawyer myself, having a good talk, calling the realtor, and then the carpet ppl where the carpet has been ordered, etc back and forth, and we may actually get the carpet installed Monday and Tuesday of next week. All because I stopped negotiating with H and just did what I thought needed doing.

I have no love feelings toward him. At all. I have almost no admiration for him. I gave him tons of admiration during the blizzard, to his face and also mentally in my own mind and in posting here, so it was in my attitude too, not just me saying words. But all he does is AO and DJ and IB.

Maybe he's under a lot of stress. Thinking that, I could feel some compassion for him.

Love? Nada.

I *really* wanted to set up an appointment asap.

Jayne, thanks for sharing your day. I can't wait to see the solutions you all come up with. I believe in you

(((jayne)))

I think it's like that Dance of Anger book. When you're not mad, then I feel all mad on your behalf. Then when you're mad, I feel free to be happy with you. Or maybe I'm SO proud that you had a plan to call the Harleys today :::Happy Dance:::

Better days are ahead, hon!

And look at you, living by your values instead of your feelings!

Reading that, I just wished you'd walked away from your angry man, instead of letting him get you riled up. But I think you knew that

*hugs* Thanks for that. I appreciate it.

I dunno why you have confidence in me but thanks for that too.

I'll try calling them first thing in the morning. Their answering message says they open at 8 a.m. Central time so I should be able to call before taking the kids to school.

Yes I thought of walking away, but it felt too much like me being "sent to my room." He's actually said that before in arguments, that I should just "go to my room" meaning the bedroom. I end up retreating there and then he uses that to accuse me of not participating in things with the kids.

If I don't retreat, they are exposed to an AO. If I do retreat, they are taught that it's ok for a H to order his W to go to "her room" whenever he doesn't want to discuss something.

I feel very angry right now.

Jayne, why are you unable to call the Harley's when your dh is at home? Is it because you are afraid that he will yell at you over it? That would be pretty scary to me to live like that.

No, it isn't fear. It's just that I've asked him before to start MC again, and he refuses to talk about it. I guess I could go ahead and call for myself in front of him but at this point I'd rather not involve him, if that makes sense. I've had it with him. I'm willing to try something else if the Harleys can tell me exactly what to do, but I won't be doing it out of a feeling of love for my H. I will be doing it cus it's the right thing to do and the best thing for my kids and for the family. H won't be on board with it unless the Harleys have some suggestion on how to get him on board.

I guess, he won't get mad but he won't agree, so I'd rather not risk the rejection. If the Harleys think I should tell him something, and they can tell me precisely HOW to tell him, I'll try it.

{{{jayne}}}

I'm so sorry. Can I suggest you think of something? While I do agree he's got issues, and I completely understand how your Love Bank is empty or in the red, I'd like you to hold off making any decisions to change anything for awhile.

Why? Because you've just moved, your house is in upheaval, everyone is stressed out over the move and missing stuff and no sane household and the snow and new jobs...it's just too much.

Too much to be able to tell if you're making decisions rationally, rather than emotionally.

Can you get through the rest of the year without making any life-altering decisions?

Rule of 20, Jayne. What would you be *enthusiastic* about doing that would protect you from the swirling? Have you ever read Love Without Hurt by Steven Stosny? He goes into 4 options - Improve, Connect, Appreciate, Protect. What about you letting it be a signal to you that "Sometimes it's just you and Him" How about nurturing your spirit and remembering you are not alone?


Jayne, you can't control what your kids learn from others' behavior. I look forward to hearing what perspective the Harleys share with you about this.

If they're exposed to an AO, you could turn to them before you leave and explain why you're leaving - that you deserve respect, and show them to do it, too.

Jayne, what current personal goals are you working towards? Maybe you could make a list of 15 or 30 minute taks taht would get you closer to those goals. And schedule them in. Then, you would have a backup plan, you can pick a task to do ahead of schedule to shift focus to when you catch you and H in the dysfunction again.

I shared with you what I would do, go for walks (hard to do when it's snowing I guess), go to an extra meeting. I felt like I was taking these moments back when I shifted my focus. It did get to be too much leaving for me, and I went to more progressive enforcements than just leaving for the evening.

And you, jayne, will have expert coaching. I am so excited for you And I'm with cat, glad that you have great alternatives to taking drastic action.

I've scheduled an appointment for Monday morning after the kids have been taken to school but still fairly early in the day. I'll tell H, it may be early enough that he can participate if he wants to; then again he may choose not to. It's also the day that the carpet is now scheduled to be installed.

Whew. It feels good to have taken both those steps to improve things.

Oh, I also found a box of winter sweaters and some pants that fit, so I didn't have to wear the same black pants or capri pants today.

I'll post more later, including answering the questions.