Huh? FH...read my post...the ACTUAL words. I was not telling you what to post. I had no problem with your answer as it pertains to abortion either. The other part is something we've discussed in the past and I clearly stated that I would gladly discuss that with you via email.

I have nothing "under my skin" as you said. In fact, I am more than a little confused by your post. I am exceptionally pleased with your position on abortion...AND your willingness to express your views.

Thank you for the offer, but I prefer to do my discussing in public.

I take it you are referring to, and apparently bothered by, the reference to "other ways" to God other than through Jesus Christ, the second person of the Trinity.

Be that as it may, it stands the same as those who want to convince others that "their" view of a baby supercedes God's view. They want to substitute "their" truth" for "God's" truth.

Little difference between the two issues as they both seek to move people away from God and keep them away from God if possible.

My point is very simple and basic...a willingness to stand on the Word of God and "Man's" manipulation or rejection of it to foster whatever goal they want.

IF that is NOT true, why bother opposing abortion, infidelity, or anything else that runs contrary to God's revealed will? Either God IS absolute truth, or He isn't. There really isn't any "middle of the road" position, is there?

There are some exceptionally great people that do not believe in Christ that oppose abortion. There are many reasons beyond God to oppose killing an innocent baby.

And there are some people who supposedly know God exists, yet they choose to kill his children.

It is not just God's will that drives people. Some people have a basic sense of right/wrong absent any God in their life. I did not come to know Christ until my 30's. I always KNEW something as barbaric as abortion was in fact wrong. Nobody should need a God to tell them that.

So, yes, there are middle of the road positions in this and many other discussions. Not saying they are right...but they certainly exist...and are used by some very good...and some very bad, people.

Name one reason if you would? I would think that in every such case it comes down to what any given individual chooses to think is "truth" for them, but that it really doesn't "have to" apply to anyone else. That's the problem with "relativism," it is open to interpretation by anyone for themselves and not necessarily applicable to everyone regardless of "which side of any given issue" they happen to take or choose embrace.

In short, it is "me" centric and not God centric.

That is also why the Scripture clearly reveals that regardless of "human standards" chosen to "evaluate" someone else, there is NO ONE "good" except for God.



I understand that. They should KNOW better, but they choose, for whatever reason, to NOT make God preeminent in their lives. They choose to NOT "live their lives" FOR God, but only to have God a part of their lives in such areas as they want to "give to God" and to keep Him out of areas that they want to retain for themselves.




Yes, everyone has a God-given "sense" of right and wrong because God HAS written His moral code on everyone's heart. The "problem" is not with the "code," it is with Man's fallen sinful state that is at enmity with God. "Right" in one area does not "trump" being "wrong" in another area. It is for reasons such as that, that no one is without guilt and no one is without excuse for the way they choose to live their lives. The "goodness" is NOT dependent upon how someone "lives" or chooses to stand for "right" versus "wrong." "Goodness" is only granted THROUGH Jesus Christ and only because of what He has already done so that HIS goodness is imparted to us.



ALL "positions" exist. That has never been at issue. What is at issue is "Right" versus "Wrong" and the Standards used to provide a universal definition of them. That is "difference" between "absolute" and "relative" standards, between God IS Sovereign and God is NOT Sovereign. Particularly for the believer, this is crucial, because it DOES impact how we live our lives.


It's also interesting that this sort of thinking was the topic of our Pastor's message today, based on Psalm 100:3.

To mention a couple of points from that message may give further clarity to what I've been saying.

"Know that He is God." Means to recognize the FACT that He IS the LORD, Jehovah (HE and NO other), and to recognize that FACT as a certainty.

From that, we need to live as a theist (I exist for Him and for Him alone). The caution to believes is: Even though we are theists, let's make sure we not live as "practical atheists."

To put that in perspective, or to "frame it," we can look at statements from some "practical atheists," or "atheists in fact."

Huxley said "I want this world to NOT be relevant." "A meaningless wisdom frees me to my own erotic pursuits."

Gould - "Once you find out that there is no superior WISDOM, no superior CAUSE, it is LIBERATING if not EXHILARATIING."

Sartre - "Usless passions lead to despair - nothing to live for but ourselves."


But the reality of all these "moral choices" and how we live our lives results from this truth:

Without an answer to "Where did I come from" (origins), you cannot answer:

"Why am I here?" (the question of Meaning and Purpose of life);

"How should I live?" (the issue of morality).


Furthermore, imho, you cannot answer the question of "when does life begin" and "why would it be wrong to kill a baby that is developing in the womb."

Several people think they can "hedge" on this by saying "well, I don't personally think it's okay to do 'such and such,' like abort a baby, but it's okay if others disagree with me and want to do so for their own reasons." THAT is simply "moral relativism" at work and a denial of the Sovereignty of God, to say nothing of a refusal to STAND FOR God regardless of what "human opinion" of them might be.

As police officers, lawyers, and judges will often tell us, "Ignorance of the LAW is no excuse." And God holds the same position since HE HAS established the law AND revealed it to us so that we WOULD KNOW what He has set forth as HIS law and the standards that HE holds us accountable to.

In like manner, it does no one any good for a believer to tell someone else that "God was not right, you can believe whatever you want to believe and still 'get to heaven'." Basically, it's no different from what Satan told Eve, "God didn't REALLY mean what HE said." And God assigned believers the Great Commission for just that reason....HIS way or NO way.

This may be explained further down the thread (haven't been on all weekend) but if not, can someone explain this to me? What is the difference between MURDER and "just war"? Personally, I don't see how war is anything but murder but that could just be me.

I feel the same about those who oppose abortion but support war.

Husband1, I respect your opinion and by now if you've read this thread, you realize I disagree with it. No point beating a dead horse on this, however, I must respond to this statement:


Does anyone actually believe this? If you have ever been raped or know someone who has, you will realize that nothing can be further from the truth. These women are still vilified by society - even pressing charges against the rapist puts the victim in a position where people in authority are all but accusing her of "asking for it". As if the rape weren't enough, the aftermath is so utterly degrading. And what counsel, healing and compassion in a society that doesn't even provide medical benefits to this person? Even in my country where this is provided, counselling can be harder to come by. And don't even start me with the church's position - I have seen it far too often.

Unfortunately, this is yet another area that needs to be addressed that could help reduce the number of abortions (probably not that many as I don't think the greatest amount are rape victims and even if there was support available, many might still choose abortion, but probably not as many)

Baloney. This is so far from today's reality it is laughable.

I get the distinct impression that you just throw stuff out there without really having any knowledge of what you speak. This is nowhere near today's reality. Not even close.

Tabby, people can question the war in Iraq, but war in itself is not murder. If we did not fight and win WW11 and stop Hitler, for example, the world would have been at the mercy of Nazi facists. Do you really believe that WW11 Allied soldiers were "murderers" for wiping out the Nazis? Equating our brave soldiers to abortion butchers is sickening and morally offensive.

But lets say that every war is murder, a ridiculous notion, how would that justify abortion? More humans have been slaughtered in US abortions than in all world wars combined. How do you justify that?

huh? What does this have to do with abortion and the point he made about the presumption that abortion is somehow therapeutic for rape victims?

Exactly.

It is just another statement thrown out there without any thought as to what is being said.

Have you explained why you support the punishment of rape victims yet?

Maybe it's simply a matter of "If it's good enough for rural India, it's good enough for Melodylane".

ridiculous statement. ML does not support the punishment of rape victims. Her not wanting a child to be killed is not being in favor of the punishing of rape victims.


ML is a respected member of this board that has helped far more people than you could ever imagine. You on the other hand tend to just want to be inflammatory and aggressive. Perhaps it is time to take a step back and evaluate why you feel the need to attack Mel.

Krazy, I will post it AGAIN: I do not support punishment of rape victims.

You have obviously never been raped, nor do you know anyone who has.

another diversion....

War itself may not necessarily involve murder, but when a human being kills another human being, it is murder - and war typically involves this. Yes, the WW11 allied soldiers were murderers, as were the Nazis. Just because wiping them out meant for a better world doesn't erase the fact that men killed other men. The end does not justify the means. Although according to you and MEDC, God forgives everyone except women who have abortions - they "deserve to die", right? Did the Nazi's deserve to die? Probably, but isn't that a judgement meant for God? (forgive me, I'm not the same religion as you so I could be wrong)

And for the record, it doesn't make the soldiers any less brave or honourable for defending the principals that they did. But it doesn't justify killing either.

That's a load of hooey.

Tabby, a bit of background on me...

I was a police officer in Philadelphia. I obviously am very familiar with rape. I have also been trained by WOAR to deal with rape victims. In addition to this, I was sexually assaulted at a young age by a priest and have volunteered my time and efforts to work with all types of physical and sexual abuse victims.

The law enforcement community and court system are exceptionally aware of the emotional impact of sexual assault. Special care and consideration is taken with victims of sexual assault. Courts are also very well equipped these days to handle assault victims.

So, Tabby...what are your assertions based on? What are your qualifications and experience in these matters? I have laid out my experience which you have seemed to question. Now I would like to know yours.

Tabby...this post makes no sense. Does a police officer murder a criminal that is trying to kill him? Does a person protecting their family MURDER an intruder intent on harming his family.

Look Tabby...I am not picking on you here. You mentioned early on that you felt that some people in your life looked down on you for a lack of education. Are you wanting to cause conflict here...or would you like to become educated about the things of which you are speaking?

Murder is the UNLAWFUL killing of another person.

Tabby, this reflects a shocking deficit of critical thought. Killing does not constitute murder, unless it is unjustified. Unless a war is unjustified, it is not murder. We all know the difference between killing and murder. Using your "logic," one is a murderer if they kill someone in self defense.

I would also point out that if those "murderers" in WW11 had not fought the Nazis you would living at the mercy of evil, cruel men. Thankfully, others do not think like you or there would be freedom nowhere in the world.

There is no moral equation between abortion and war. First off, in order for the equation to be rational, we must equate unborn humans to enemies such as Nazis and terrorists. Nazis and terrorists are not innocent humans, the unborn ARE. The unborn have committed no crimes against humanity. It would be much more logical to equate abortion butchers to terrorists and Nazis. [abortion butchers have killed far more people]

Secondly, in the case of abortion, there is the intentional targeting and taking of innocent life. In the case of warfare, there is loss of innocent life, but the intention is not the intentional targeting of innocent life. To try and parallel abortion and the consequences of war is false and engages in moral equivocating. One targets innocent life [abortion], the other does not. [warfare]

Even so, no matter how the morality of war is spun, it can never justify the intentional and purposeful targeted slaughter of millions of innocent humans. NOTHING could justify that and this war assertion is nothing more than a diversion.

And lastly, Tabby, must I remind you that you have no grounds on which to object to anyone's opinion here since you have stated that ones "belief" will justify anything. My "belief" is that abortion is murder. I don't even have to support my "belief" according to your standards.


That's a load of hooey. [/quote]

Let's see if thats "hooey" by just taking a look at America alone:

Total killed due to abortion since 1973 - 49,000,000 (35 MILLION) deaths

US WAR DEATHS:

Revolutionary War - 4,435 deaths
Civil War (both sides) - 498,332 deaths
World War I - 116,708 deaths.
World War II - 407,316 deaths
Korea - 25,604 deaths
Vietnam - 58,168 deaths

TOTAL 1,110,563(1.1 MILLION)

49 MILLION ABORTIONS
1.1 MILLION WAR DEATHS

We could even add in Hitler's concentration camp victims [11,000,000] and still be at ONE THIRD the # of US abortions since 1973. "Hooey?" No. Mass slaughter, YES.