Hi y'all, I'm doing much better now. I've been sleeping a lot, but my headaches are gone.

I've been trying to do a lot more DS and FC stuff. Also, I've been trying some stuff I read on various websites, about trying to talk for even 60 seconds about anything that is not handling chores or coordinating stuff. Only this time I have pretty much let go of any expectations. I guess it's sorta like a 180, as best I can understand it. So for the past couple of days I've encouraged him to talk about anything *he* wants. I didn't do it as asking him questions or saying "let's talk" or anything, I just made myself available in case he said anything, and then very carefully asked follow-up questions instead of just waiting for him to talk more or not, or instead of me speaking up.

He actually talked to me for several minutes about the trip he just got back from. And then this morning he talked to me about ATVs that he's looking at, to buy for clearing snow and dead trees among other things. He seems much happier. He even watched a movie with me tonight, *AND*...

He said that if I really wanted a dog he would go along!!!!! I had just said that I wasn't sure myself if I was ready to get a pregnant [censored] (sorry, that's the word) but as long as he was "forbidding" it that put me in a position of trying to talk him into it. So he said that if I really wanted it, that it was ok with him since I was so passionate about it and he wants me to be happy. (He wants me to be happy!!!!!!!!) He said he'd leave it up to me. I said I don't want to do that, I want to make sure he won't be miserable and also to make sure I'm ready to make that commitment. He said he'd be miserable if they kept him awake at night. So now I have something that I can work with, I can make sure they won't bark all night and keep him awake! I will contact some area vets and also some other breeders to see what they have to say. It feels *wonderful* that if I really want this, he'll be ok with it!

I'm trying really hard to not fall back into the same cycle of thinking everything's wonderful just because of one (or two) conversations. I still intend to call Steve Monday morning. Just now, I think I'll be a lot more willing to make efforts.

Jayne, Im so excited for you

I was wondering , for the kids, what about some active indoor games to grab their attention and wear them out? Like Dance Dance Revolution kinds of things?

What's Dance Dance Revolution?

Here's what Dance Dance Revolution looks like:

http://www.ddrgame.com/pcensoft.html

You can get it for the PC, Wii, or a game console like Xbox 360 or PS2.

My mom bought my brothers one of these. They destroyed it, LOL, but it took a few years.

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=6487030

Here's an article with other suggestions, too: http://childparenting.about.com/od/activitiesandfun/a/activeindoors.htm

Thanks ears! The kids have been asking for a video game player, so far we've held out. I'd like to keep them from such things as long as possible. Shhh, they don't know that some kids have tv's in their room either.

Yep, as geeky as H and I are, we don't have our kids play computer games. Except for some online learning games like Click-N-Kids, a phonics learn-to-read game.

So you wanna know what *today's* challenge is? No it isn't snow; the driveway is clear. Nope, apparently *someone* left a car door open Friday night (it was my door, but I claim I shut it and DS6a opened it again to get something; that's my story and I'm sticking to it!) and so Saturday morning the Subaru wouldn't start. Seeing as how the other car is a little Honda CRX (a 2-seater, from 1991) that means at least one adult and one kid are stuck at home. Theoretically one adult could take one kid, since although the kid would be in the front seat, there's no passenger airbags so it would be legal.

We tried charging the Subaru from the Honda but that didn't do a thing.

H went out yesterday to try to find various things including an ATV, a chainsaw, supplies for the kids to make their Cub Scout Derby boats, and a new battery or a battery charger. He came back with a chainsaw and boat supplies, it was too late to get a battery. So we gotta think of something to do today, hopefully some place is open, so we can all go to school and work tomorrow morning.

So right now the kids are just watching movies, and sporadically yelling at each other to stop something or other. In a sec I'm gonna get them started on some chores to earn their allowance, and then we can work on their Cub Scout boats and maybe do some homework. But we also need to pick up a lot of clutter since the carpet guys come tomorrow.

If we had a dog we could send the kids outside with him/her. Of course, we are getting new carpet tomorrow... it woulda been better to go through the "new puppy" stage *before* the carpet was installed. Oh well.

H is being really nice. I woke him up this morning with SF, and he made me some capaccino while I was in the shower.

This is awesome! He wants you to be happy, he talks to you(!), he does things for you, no AO for the car not starting, and he goes out to get things for the household! Do the Snoopy happy dance! See, you work to change your pattern a little, and he dives right in! It's like you've been walking next to each other, but in parallel universes or something, and all it took was for one of you to move over onto the other one's track?

Dance Dance Revolution is an awesome game for the kids because it is completely on your feet, exercising/dancing your butts off. An amazing way to wear them out, keep them active, and teach them coordination. I would really recommend it. We bought D18 the PS2 two years ago, just for the DDR. It's the only game she has. And you can get games for it that are education based, or sports based. I really think you should consider it.

Until then, what about Twister?

Yay Jayne!
This is awesome!
I am reading 5LL again with you as well as me in mind, and i think the 'quality time' chapter might be of interest to you. There is a bit about conversation. The author likens it to 2 types of personality..a babbling brook and the dead sea. The dead sea absorbs but does not give out, a babbling brook lets stuff flow from the mind to the mouth. He says this pairing is very attractive to courting couples, but not so much fun 5 years down the track. There is some coversational exercises in it but with your H being a little reticent I dont know that it would be any good to you.

Jayne, how'd it go with Steve?

How would you and H feel about lining up a sitter for a Date Night?

It went well talking to Steve. I found him extremely easy to talk to, and since he's a guy he may hold more credibility with H. (Jay? MrJ? Mr241? JH (Just H?))

The plan is for me to ask H if he'll agree to talking to Steve for one session, in a way that is a Thoughtful Request so he doesn't feel attacked. So, I want to present it something like the following:

"I want to find ways to improve our M and our family dynamics. I want to work on my part of our problems so I have contacted the MB people and I talked to one of them, Steve Harley. Steve would like to talk to you so he has both points of view so he can better help me. Would you agree to talk to him?"

If he doesn't agree, Steve suggests I ask up to three times, each time separated by a day.

I didn't ask yesterday cus yesterday spiralled downhill after talking to Steve. The carpet ppl cancelled at the last minute cus the guy we bought the house from (now HIM I need a name for!!! How about SB for Slime Bucket?) told them he wasn't gonna pay even for the portion that he signed a contract for. Even though *our* original agreement was for SB to pay all, the carpet store only had a signed contract for him to pay the carpet, so we had agreed to pay for the pad and labor and our lawyer had sent his lawyer a letter stating we expected to get reimbursed. But even if we weren't, we were trying to mitigate our damages.

We have new furniture that is sitting in the garage with melting snow all around; we have boxes of belongings also sitting in the garage, and two U-Haul storage units in the next town over. DS6b stepped on a carpet nail and was bleeding the other day. We can't totally unpack our clothes and other stuff cus we don't have furniture like drawers etc.

So instead of having carpet installed yesterday I spent a couple hours looking for paperwork and we spent 1.5 hours talking to the lawyer. I DJ'ed H at the lawyer's office. I know it isn't fair to blame H for what's going on, I could have stood my ground at any point and refused to go along with any of the accommodations requested, or insisted on more money being held back in escrow at closing.

But I *do* feel blame toward him for not being more protective of his family's interests. It was hard for me to be the only one acting distrustful, especially with him saying "Oh yes, I'm sure this will be ok, let's just go along." I'm TIRED of being the dog. (If I can't say [censored] when I mean dog, then can I say dog when I mean [censored]? )

If I had stood my ground any more than I already was, I would've been seen as being doggie. If H had done it he would've been seen as being strong.

So I'm sure I came across as DJing in the lawyer's office. I guess saying I "came across as DJing" is an understatement. I DJed.

So I didn't feel it was the best time to ask him about talking to Steve Harley last night. I'll try tonight.

I'm feeling depressed again. The "high" from H talking to me a couple days ago didn't last long. Prolly a combination of the disappointment and frustration over the carpet, the fact that I re-read some of the first part of my thread (I'd forgotten some of the worst things), and the fact that I'm leaving Thursday morning for a short trip, coming back Sunday. I usually get depressed before a trip.

I sure hope H will agree to talking to Steve. Oh yes, Steve thinks I shouldn't get a dog until/unless H is more enthusiastic about it. He thinks I should use this as an opportunity to model POJA. Not sure I can do this without feeling like a martyr. At least I'm talking to someone directly though to help me sort out how to apply POJA.

Even worse, this carpet situation is almost certainly going to mean we spend Thanksgiving in a house we paid gobs of money for but has plywood floors and almost no furniture. We had looked forward to having our relatives visit for Thanksgiving (MIL and FIL even arranged to take off work, since Canada doesn't give time-off for U.S. T-giving) and showing everyone our new house. Right now H and I are sleeping in the guest bedroom cus only two bedrooms still have carpet. Otherwise the carpet guys will have to move a lot of furniture including a massive bed.

Jayne, it feels like I've been waiting SO LONG to discuss this with you! Was it really only yesterday


The plan is for me to ask H if he'll agree to talking to Steve for one session, in a way that is a Thoughtful Request so he doesn't feel attacked.

Jayne, did you say this to Steve? We get frustrated when we take responsibility for actions that are not our own. One thing I like about Dr. H's writings is that it is about honesty, not manipulation. I found that manipulation stuff in a lot of information before I got here. "Say it this way so that he'll feel ____" I hated reading that! It sounded like what I was trying so hard to get away from, not being able to work with H as a partner.

But here on MB, it's the total opposite. "Share your O&H, and ask him what he thinks. Brainstorm with abandon." *That* I can get enthusiastic about. Replacing coping and survival skills with life skills. Because we've survived the crises. Today, the present, is the fruit of out labor. The season for celebration and joy. Partnering and growing together.

Do you remember, LA used to talk to me about this. How I had boundaries to protect me, yet sometimes I still feared H. Not all the time, but often enough that it still ate down my love bank. I feared his reactions. As if it was up to him whether I would be safe today. Whether today it was okay to be happy and calm. I would be afraid to enforce my boundaries. Hold back, accepted unnacceptable behavior, to try to control how he felt about me. Instead of saying, "Ouch, H. It hurts me when you say that. I am having a great day, with you or without you. Want to join me?" Instead of partnering together.

Is any of this true for you, jayne?


So, I want to present it something like the following:

"I want to find ways to improve our M and our family dynamics. I want to work on my part of our problems so I have contacted the MB people and I talked to one of them, Steve Harley. Steve would like to talk to you so he has both points of view so he can better help me. Would you agree to talk to him?"

Sounds great! Honest, respectful and equal!

So instead of having carpet installed yesterday I spent a couple hours looking for paperwork and we spent 1.5 hours talking to the lawyer. I DJ'ed H at the lawyer's office. I know it isn't fair to blame H for what's going on, I could have stood my ground at any point and refused to go along with any of the accommodations requested, or insisted on more money being held back in escrow at closing.

But I *do* feel blame toward him for not being more protective of his family's interests. It was hard for me to be the only one acting distrustful, especially with him saying "Oh yes, I'm sure this will be ok, let's just go along." I'm TIRED of being the dog. (If I can't say [censored] when I mean dog, then can I say dog when I mean [censored]? )

If I had stood my ground any more than I already was, I would've been seen as being doggie. If H had done it he would've been seen as being strong.

So I'm sure I came across as DJing in the lawyer's office. I guess saying I "came across as DJing" is an understatement. I DJed.

Jayne, what do you think about IC? I don't think you were being shrewish, I think that you were being smart. Why pay for the owner's deceitfulness without looking into your options to be fairly compensated? That whole thing he did was so fraudulent, sell you a house in one condition and then turning over a house that needed thousands of dollars of work without compensating or even notifying you.

Why do you think people will see you as shrewish about this? Do you feel that you don't have the negotiating skills to get a fair deal without being nasty? Or do you feel even speaking up for yourself and your family respectfully is somehow vicious? Or do you think disagreeing with your H is what makes you look bad? People do disagree, don't they? Let's get to the bottom of it, so we can find what solution you're enthusiastic about.


I'm feeling depressed again. The "high" from H talking to me a couple days ago didn't last long. Prolly a combination of the disappointment and frustration over the carpet, the fact that I re-read some of the first part of my thread (I'd forgotten some of the worst things), and the fact that I'm leaving Thursday morning for a short trip, coming back Sunday. I usually get depressed before a trip.

Have you discussed with Steve the frequency and the length of the travel you and H do to find out if it's going to be something you two can work around as you restore your marriage, or something that would prevent you from being able to restore it?

Are you depressed, jayne? Or is it just a temporary thing with the travel?

I sure hope H will agree to talking to Steve. Oh yes, Steve thinks I shouldn't get a dog until/unless H is more enthusiastic about it. He thinks I should use this as an opportunity to model POJA. Not sure I can do this without feeling like a martyr. At least I'm talking to someone directly though to help me sort out how to apply POJA.

Jayne, a martyr is someone who sacrifices what they want. POJA is the opposite of sacrifice, it's where both partners get what they want. Your H sounds like he is willing to work with you to find the win-win on this, right?

Thanks ears for the detailed response!

I just have time for a quick reply right now, so I'l start at the bottom since it's the easiest to answer:


No, not to find the win-win. He said he was willing to go along with it, not that he really wants to (is enthusiastic about it). So his choice would be to not do it.

Thanks for clarifying. I am wondering if he said that, that he may be close to POJA. Maybe all you have to do is ask what would make him enthusiastic about it. My H is like that, too, says no, and then says yes the next day. Like the Thanksgiving thing I was in such a tizzy about. By the next evening he said he WANTS to do this all together with extended family, and still says that now. But other things, he sticks to his "no" on.

And jayne, you've got mail. In your free time LOL

I've asked them him that. Several times, over several weeks and months. I asked again last night, 2 or 3 times, worded different ways. The most I got was, when I asked if he thought he'd like puppies or enjoy puppies at all, he said "perhaps" and "probably not". I asked if he enjoys our cats and he said "yes, a lot."

I forget the exact words Steve used, but his goal was that I present it in such a way that won't trigger H to be defensive, to shut down or clam up. He specifically mentioned that he didn't mean to be manipulative but that I should take into consideration H's tendencies to shut down and refuse to communicate.


Yes I definitely felt like I would've had to be forceful to go against H saying everything would be ok... I felt like he was pooh-poohing my concerns, and it would've taken me being forceful and insistent and being the bad guy. I can do that, and I have before, I just get tired of being the bad guy.


I didn't discuss that with him, but it doesn't bother me as much as it would bother you. There are other things that bother me more. At least now we are living in the same house, which is an improvement. Besides, even when one of us isn't traveling, we don't have UA. Stopping the traveling won't fix that, and one of the only things keeping us together is our common career interests, and that's what the traveling is for.

I just plain get depressed whenever I pack to travel somewhere, no matter how much I want to go on the trip and no matter how brief the trip is. That was true even when I was single. I just like staying home. Even though I love adventures when I'm in the midst of them.

Two quick thoughts. First, cat people are not dog people! I think dogs are adorable, I ADORE puppies, but when it comes to having a dog in my house or yard, having to wash him, smell him, take him for walks...the way a dog kisses up to people doesn't make up for all the hassle IMO. So you're married to someone who probably has the same issues I do. I can live with dogs, I do for H's sake, but it would really make it easier to deal with dogs, if only H and/or D18 would take care of them! Instead, it always falls to me!

The other thing is that you H seems like the ultimate conflict avoider. Isn't he? If so, before you approach issues, try to think of ways to work on it together before an issue comes up, so that you can be the bad guy and let your H off the hook. I would like it if H would do it for me, but I usually end up being the bad guy.

Oh, one other thing. You guys are in the middle of a move. Very stressful. I don't think you should be making any big stressful changes until things have smoothed over.

Yes I know he's a cat person. So was I before I got a dog. He never before had a cat when he lived on his own, though; his parents always had cats. OTOH I had two cats when I was in college and grad school, and then I got a dog and had that dog when H and I first met. He knew going into the M that kids and dogs and cats were all in my idea of what constitutes a happy home. Like I've said before, you can't take a cat camping/hiking/jogging/cycling.

Here's something I saw just today:
http://www.indigo.org/rainbowbridge_ver2.html

What stressful changes are you warning me against? Getting carpet? Yes that's turning out to be quite stressful. Or asking him to talk to Steve?

No, I'm thinking about the whole big move thing. You've uprooted the whole family, the whole way of life, schools, shopping, friends, snow, work...everything. That in itself can have a humongous effect on the whole family, and your inter-dynamics. Let alone trying to change the way you deal with each other at the same time. Doesn't it makes sense to get settled in first, before you work on relationships?

ETA:
I'm going to go out on a limb here, because I imagine some will want to challenge me on this. But IMO, growing up with cats creates completely different people than growing up with dogs. If his parents always had cats, it's the same thing as him always having cats. He's more in tuned to the cat 'culture' than the dog culture.

I know, my point was that he may call himself a cat person but I'm even more of a dog person than he is a cat person. Come to think of it, I'm more of a cat person than he is a cat person. Having had two myself, all on my own.

Wow, Jayne, I was so far off the mark there, huh? Thanks for being patient with me. I totally get you, that you have been getting to know your H better, and understanding that there are ways to approach him that he does not feel good about. That you can be patient and caring and considerate and approach him in a different way, to share your O&H in gentle ways that grow your compatibility together. Instead of hurting him. So many of the things that you said to me in my own situation come into focus when I read that. Again, I appreciate your patience.



I like those words, FORCEFUL and INSISTENT. I understand how that's not the role that you want to play alone anymore. That you want to renegotiate that. What about excusing yourselves and coming to POJA provately, then rejoining as a united front? You two working as a team together, strengthening your bond.

Like in that Dance of Anger book, it's not balanced to put one person solely in that position, because you both need that opportunity to express that part of yourselves. He may not be "feeling it" if you are protecting him from the consequences of his inaction by stepping up for you two. But you don't want to step back, either, because then you are stuck with the consequences for his choices, too.

But that requires him to participate. If I were to say in the middle of closing that we need to talk privately, he probably would've refused.

You can't "brainstorm with abandon" if the other person won't say anything or come up with anything or suggest anything. I've tried. I've tried coming up with my own suggestions, trying to think of things from his POV.