Hello. I'm 38yo father of 3 (6yo,4yo, 2yo) married since 2000. In 2003 I had a 3 month A that almost resulted in D but my wife wanted to make things work. At one point she found a picture of the OW and that crushed her as well because she has an element of poor self body image. We ended up leaving the state (coincidentally) for my job and started fresh. I didn't have contact with the OW after that. We never really addressed the fundamental relationship issues that led to my crossing our marrital boundaries and naively thought things would be okay anyhow. My wife just offered her trust without question. I feel that of the many reasons for my straying, lack of emotional intimacy was the primary reason that I could justify having the A. Of course I was wrong to turn for help outside of our marriage but I was desperately seeking the intimacy at the time didn't have the relationship tools or know-how to address the problems.

I've also had a history of a paraphilia involving phone sex with acquaintances and sometimes random strangers. I know that this in and of itself has a been a problem in my life but it was so ingrained in me that I sometimes turned to this to fulfill my need for intimacy (my own opinion to in-part explain the behavior). Sometimes the phone calls would involve people I know and some degree of risk taking. In 2006 I made a random call to a friend of my wife's and revealed myself to her. The friend didn't participate in phone sex with me and of course notified my wife who confronted me. The result was that I apologized and agreed to go to counseling and possibly therapy for myself and what the marriage counselor thought might ultimately be a sex addiction. My wife gave me another opportunity to make the marriage work. Even with this horrible behavior of mine, at the time I failed to wake up from my problem behavior and didn't take the counseling seriously nor did I really introspect into the possible issues involved at the time. Clearly there were personal as well as relationship issues. She also did not persist in exploring the relationship itself and after a few months of couples therapy and exploration, we moved to another state for a job and the issues again were never addressed.

We lived the next 2 years with an ailing relationship void of emotional intimacy and with 2 addition children by then, I started to feel again justified with my decision to seek intimacy outside the marriage. No physical infidelity but phone sex with an acquaintance from work and clearly an emotional detachment from my wife. We again moved (honestly a work-move and not related to getting away from another woman of any sort) back to our last state of residence for a job and about 4 months into it, I reconnected with a prior acquaintance who I felt could "meet my emotional needs." I was in a mental fog and told my wife what I thought. She of course was devastated and for the next 2 weeks went through grief. Then something strange happened; she felt that a burden to please me had been lifted and we had an oppenness that we'd never had before. We also had more sex than we had ever had. She started seeing a therapist and even then wanted to try to make it work. However by the end of the first 4 weeks of therapy, the therapist brough up the idea of codependence in her and she began to feel that she couldn't trust me anymore (obviously justified at that point). The words of fixing things as recently as a few weeks ago are currently gone...she thinks that because her trust is gone, a future isn't possible. On top of it all, she found an email in which an acquaintance with whom I was having phone sex sent a suggestive non-nude picture. It is burned into her memory, as she says.

In the meantime, I found marriage builders and have educated myself on the issues that we faced and did not address. I have also become more knowledgable about the elements of the marriage that were lacking and also practical behaviors and techniques to rebuild the marriage; not like the superficial glossing-over that we did previously. She wanted me to see her therapist and it took 2 weeks for me to make the appt and that pissed her off. I saw him finally but she says that she still doesn't think the marriage will work because of the trust barrier. It is hard for me to not be excited about this new knowledge that I have learned at MarriageBuilders and through self-reflection. I know that there are other issues related to my history of phone sex that should be addressed and maybe sex-addiction. But there is so much at stake, such as our 3 young kids, and I love her and am 100% committed to making it work now. I am amazed that I was so out of touch with reality in the past years and I'm kicking myself for not realizing it when she was giving me the opportunity.

For the past week or so I have been trying to show her/demonstrate to her the changes I've begun to make regarding avoiding love busters and trying to meet her emotional needs (she did the questionairs that I found on the site). Sometimes she feels that I'm "shoving it down" her throat. That is unintenional. I moved out of the house and now our marriage may be over. I am still committed though and feel that this time I not only have an intense clarity of the situation and broken marriage but have the tools to rebuild the marriage in a very concrete way and with specific behaviors that will allow us to get to the emoational intimacy that we both want. She says that the big barrier is trust and getting thost images that are burned into her memory. I have been persistent and she says that that seems to push her away. I've been to the house frequently to see the kids and its difficult to not bring up the things that I'm learning and want to use to make it work. She leaves a little hope in me because she listens to my ideas aobut rebuilding using my new knowledge and because she has said, "I don't know how I'll feel in Jan" (the earliest she'd be able to file based on our state's residency requirements). She also keeps saying she doesn't want to give me false hope. I am trying my absolute hardesst to tell her how I feel and to express myself...this is the most important thing in my life and I don't want to lose her and our intact family. I really do think that healing is possible but I feel that she isn't seeing the positive right now because she is protecting herself ffrom the pain of having trust me and my having let her down. I am convinced that because I have the tools to have a strong relationship, I would be able to recognize the feelings that have led to seeking my needs outside of the marriage. Also, this has been a life-changing moment for me and I don't want to lose what I have. In the past I was in a fog of sorts and didn't have this realization.

She has given me various support group links where she has posted and I've found her posts which are very discouraging. At this point in the posts she is ready to move on. But I can't stop trying.

I'm so in need of some other people's perspectives because I really think that this is worth fighting for and think that she'll also agree if she is able to take that one last leap of faith in me. Last night she said she doesn't have it in her and is emotionally drained. We are still seeing the therapist individually and I'll continue to go. I'm not sure how to proceed otherwise in my attempts to keep our family together. Please help!

Dav
Welcome. My H had 1 A. This was extremely difficult to get through. Unless you've been on the side of the betrayed it is difficult to understand the complete devastation that a S feels when an infidelity occurs. Your BW has experienced numerous occurences, and with each one she lost more of herself than she even knew she had left. Because of the fact that you two never really addressed the A's there wasn't a chance of restoring the intimacy you desired. See to heal from the injury one must sometimes reopen the wound and clean out the infection so the wound can heal. You all just let the infection persist.

Your wife has endured GREAT pain and you have been the cause of this pain. And NOW you want her to continue to believe in you. You want her to put her head on that chopping block again and trust that you won't lower the blade. I'm not sure there is anything more difficult for you to ask of her.

Personally I would not. Once is far more than enough. Numerous times and you really have to start to wonder what is wrong with HER. The C may be right and that is why she needs to address HER needs and her childrens needs first. Your desire to try again isn't a reason for her to stay. And rightfully so.

Weeks of attempted change are miniscule. She will need to see YEARS.

I think the best thing could do for your W is to let her be. If she chooses to D you then do not fight it. For once be a man and accept the consequences of your actions. Don't expect someone else to make them right. She has tried but she can't change YOU. Only you can...so do it. Fix you. Work on you. Be the best parent you know how to be. Get a handle on these selfish needs of yours....CHANGE. Don't make HER out to be the villain because she cannot handle one more futile attept at R. This is on you.

People can and do remarry. Work on you.

And one last thing... if she decides that she can find it within herself to give you one last chance, you better camp out on this site. Read EVERYTHING this site has to offer. Read ALL the books Dr Harley has written. Call the Harleys and C with them. Go to a MB weekend. Get some intensive self help. Listen to the people here who have been in her shoes and in YOUR shoes. The advice will be hard to hear.

I appreciate your candor, MichelG, and this seems to be where she is coming from in terms of what she has told me as well. I certainly won't fight a divorce if that is what she wants. But I could never encourage one or say that I also want a divorce. I do not.

I am already prepared to take the steps necessary to begin the long process of healing by therapy, seminars, this website, personal time spent together, and careful self-reflection and self-assessment.

I know that if she leaves, it will be painful for everyone but undestandable and the decision that she feels is right for her at this point. I'll respect that.

In light of the changes in me, I still do sincerely feel that there could be a positive outcome if she has it in her to take that one chance. I realize that that is asking a tremendous amount of her. I will continue to hope and see what happens. Meanwhile, I am absolutely making it a point to be sensitive to our kids feelings, needs, and trying to make their lives stable during this difficult period.

IMHO, your wife would do well to walk away and never look back. While I commend your new attitude..it is in fact VERY new.

It appears as though you did not wake up in time to save your marriage and only when faced with the inevitable loss of your wife have you very recently extracted your head from your posterior.

Let me ask you are you willing to do ANYTHING to save your marriage? If so, there might be a chance. Do not ask your wife to have FAITH in you...you don't deserve it. Put your money where your mouth is.

Tell her you will:

Submit to a polygraph to PROVE you are telling the whole truth now.

Sign a post nuptial agreement that gives her custody and all of the marital assets IF you are lying or have another affair.

Commit to intensive coaching, seminars...whatever it takes.

Make your life totally transparent...no hidden cell phones, email accounts, etc. And SHE has the pass-codes to everything.

Make your word above reproach.


Present her with this stuff and she may decide to take a chance....not a risk. You have no rights to lies or secrecy. Show her...show your kids that while you have acted like a child that you are indeed NOW ready to be the man and the father they all deserve. Lead by example.

I agree. Harley himself says that Marriage Builders doesn't work while there's an untreated and unrecovered addiction in the marriage.

Your wife isn't safe with you. Not even with Marriage Builders. Because your behavior is very much like a sex addict. You can WILL yourself to stay sober for a time, but then the addiction kicks in and you're right back into a relapse again, just like an alcoholic who hasn't committed to recovery is.

This is not your wife's battle. Marriage to an addict of any kind is no cake walk. Sex addiction wears at your spouse's self-esteem and body image. (I'm married to a recovering sex addict, so I ought to know) - Let me give you a word picture to describe what you've done to your wife. Because a large part of her body image problems begin and end with you!

My husband and I had only been married 3-4 years. I was in a therapy class dealing with body image, which I had struggled with my entire life - some FOO issues and some to do with my husband. We were each given a smooth board and a lump of gray sculpting clay. We were to "sculpt" how we saw our bodies. I was quite pleased that mine represented my body and by the end of the class, I felt a great measure of healing. I had work to do over time, but I knew what I was up against and I was addressing those issues. My sculpture would be a permanent reminder of all that I had learned there - it was a beautiful piece of work too, if I say so myself.

Well - my husband decided to mess with my sculpture, making the breasts bigger, the waist narrower. Guess what happened to my sculpture? On it's own, about a week later, it broke in 1/2. Symbolic? You betcha. His pressure on my sculpture to look like a porn star broke the body. He recognized it, was ashamed and apologetic. But it didn't give me back the sculpture the way I had made it. The way I had made and embraced it. I could not bring myself to try the exercise again. He had ruined it for me.

You are, as an addict, toxic to your wife. Now if you get yourself into a recovery group, get yourself a tough-as-nails-take-no-excuses sponsor in a 12 step program and work your program as your life depends on it (because it does), you might recover enough of yourself to stay away from the chain of thoughts that takes you down a path where you give yourself allowances to cheat in any way shape or form - married or not, phone sex with mere acquaintances or strangers is illicit.

You may not recover your marriage at this point. But that's not the point of all this now. You want to be a decent human being first.

If you want to read another poster's thread here, his MB name is Silverwind - his wife Plan A'd him for way too long, while he cheated and frittered his marriage away. Now he's a changed man.

Reading his story will show you what NOT to do when it comes to your wife - while Silver's intentions were good, he used guilt to manipulate her into giving him another chance and it pushed her away. They were getting along, she was open to being friends with him, but he pushed and pushed for more...

I see that this is what could happen in your marriage if you try to recover the marriage first, without recovering your sobriety. It takes a long time to get divorced. Months, not days. So focus on today, be a good human being, get thee to a 12 step meeting (any kind will work to start out with) and find someone who will shoot straight with you for a sponsor and start with step one.

Go to a 12 step meeting. Even if the program doesn't help you (my husband didn't find it a big part of his recovery), go to see what you future will hold if you leave your addiction go untreated. The group my husband attended was small. He was the only the only one who wasn't arrested and labeled sex offender.

SA now has phone meetings, no need to travel.

There's other stuff you can do. My husband went to a counselor that dealt with sex addiction. That was the key to his recovery. Have you read anything by Patrick Carnes?

You can't white-knuckle this addiction. Chances are slim that you'll be able to recover by yourself.

My husband's been sober/in recovery for almost two years. I still don't trust completely him-and I doubt I ever will. We are both still dealing with the consequences of his addiction. My husband's counselor said healing from this addiction takes 3-5 years. YEARS. Just seeing my experience and those of others, I'd say that's pretty spot on.

Good luck in your journey through recovery/sobriety.

Thanks for the feedback. I actually think I am starting to accept the fact that my behavior may be addictive. I do want help finally. I am somewhat concerned about a group type program because of the nature of my job. It would potentially be disastrous for my career if I bumped into someone I know at such a program or knew that I was involved with it. Inrecoverynow, you did mention that your husband went to a counselor who specializes in sex addiction. Maybe that would be the way that I should go initially? The effect that this has had on my life has been so far reaching. I'm so sorry for those I am hurting and especially my wife who was there for me. Inrecoverynow, how did you remain married despite the addiction?

I'm so appreciative of everyone's feedback, even though it they're not in support my thoughts of rebuilding things. The truth is more important than my own plans at this point.

I am completely willing to do anything to save this marriage including what you propose above.

Get your wife to come here for her own issues as a start.

Most alcoholics have the same fear about walking into a 12 step meeting - that they will be damaged by going there - the exposure to their career. SA is in a whole different league than AA - there's a legitimacy that AA has image-wise that SA doesn't.

But there are on-line groups, as well as face-to-face groups. You do need someone IRL to help you be accountable and work the steps - by going to an AA meeting, you might be able to find a tough-as-nails sponsor. If you decide to share, you can identify as just "an addict", instead of specifying what addiction. When it comes down to it, almost everybody is addicted to something that keeps them from functioning fully. For me, it's this website ;P

Then print this off and show it to her. Let her think about it.

The thing is, you need to make it SAFE for her to even think about giving you another chance.

Your making excuses.

If you "Bumped" into someone you know at such a program.....
It would mean they are in the program!!

Folks that are involved in such a group, dont talk about who else is involved.

So unless your a minister, or elected official, I wouldn't try and use that as an excuse.

And if you are one of those two, you need to find a diferant line of work.

Ditto on this advise!

I don't buy that you have a sex addiction. I think you've acted like an insensitive, selfish jerk who had his head shoved so far up is [censored] that he was blind to the damage he was doing to his wife and children. After years of abuse you have to understand that you have crushed your wife's spirit in ways that you can't even imagine.

My situation is not too different from your and my FWH and I are in recovery (and doing rather well) so there is always hope even when it seems near impossible. My FWH was not into phone sex like you but prior to his PA he had a couple of inappropriate relationships with women about 10 yrs ago because he liked the attention they gave him. I discovered these relatively quickly after they began so the flirting had a short life span. Because I was young and stupid, we didn't address the problems correctly and life chugged on. We were very happy for a number of years. I was still deeply hurt by H's actions, but our M was good. I thought he had seen the light and would never do anything remotely this thoughtless and stupid again...big mistake on my part...obviously. In hindsight I see the mistakes we both made not to affair proof our marriage and we both kick ourselves over it. Why oh why does it take a disaster to open people's eyes?

After D-day of my H's PA this past year, I was where your wife is now and had zero desire to save my marriage. Protecting myself and my children from their father was the only thing in my mind. After much soul searching, I did make that leap of faith to give my H another chance but it is a decision I still struggle with at times. It is possible to recover the M but you will have to be willing to DO WHATEVER it takes and not just give cheap lip service about it. Can you really do whatever it takes for how ever long it takes? Don't think this is something you can repair in weeks or months; this will take YEARS. A month from now, six months from now, a year from now...if your BW still expresses doubts, wants details, wants to talk about the A and you feel you've answered the same questions 10 dozen times, or BW goes off in an a rage...are you going to pack up because YOU can't take it anymore? Your behavior has already shown that you are a weak person. If you can't say you will do whatever it takes and honestly mean it then do your wife a favor and let her be. Let her divorce you and don't be an ahole trying to undermine her decision.

Your desperation will rub her the wrong way because to BW you are only taking action now that you realize what YOU have to lose because she has had it with you. Before you never gave a crap what she lost so don't expect any sympathy on her part. The ball is in BW's court. If she ever decides to give you another chance consider yourself lucky because you really don't deserve it.

Still doesn't matter if you are a minister or elected official.
I know of several that attend 12 step ANONYMOUS groups.

Good point.

Just to put this in proper terms, it crushed her because it was evidence of huge deceit and betrayal on your part, not because she has an element of poor self body image. Her poor self image is created by your infidelities (and perhaps other things as well).

Take ownership of the fallout of your activities. When you learn to recognize what a wide swath of devastation you're leaving in your wake, you'll begin to be able to set right your wrongs. You're getting there, but you have a ways to go before you really see all the effects of what you have done and take ownership of them w/o attributing them to other factors.

Her discover of the email was recent - when was the last time you engaged in phone sex, inappropriate emails, flirting, or other inappropriate behavior? In other words, how long have you been "clean"?

I agree with the others that you need more than will power to get through this. Obviously your best efforts in the past to "just quit and do better" have fallen far short of the mark.

Your words have no value, only your actions.
You understand that, don't you?
You're a proven liar, betrayer, and deceiver. Your wife can only trust your actions. When she was in pain so great that death would be welcome you sat on your butt for two weeks doing NOTHING. What did that say to her about your sincerity? Your urgency? The priority of the marriage in your life?

I'm not exaggerating - studies show that an affair affects the betrayed spouse worse than rape and similarly or worse than the loss of a child - unless you've experienced it yourself you cannot fathom the depth and intensity of the pain.

One week is easy. You're going to need months of consistent behavioral changes before she believes you're for real. You're very lucky she cared enough to bother with the questionnaire. That was a great gift.

What are her top 3 ENs and how are you meeting them (just some examples)?

This tells me you're talking too much and doing too little. Drop all the relationship talk. Let your actions and perseverance do all the talking for you.

Move back in. You cannot fix a marriage from a distance. You cannot meet her ENs as easily when you live separately. You cannot practice good relationship skills and behavior if you're not WITH the person you're married to.

Furthermore, with you out of the house, what do you think is going through her head? What phone calls is she imagining you making? What emails does she think you might be writing? What other activities might she suspect you're engaging in? Strip clubs? Prostitutes? Casual sex w/strangers?

Move back home and SHOW her with your actions that you mean business.

Quit talking. You're pushing her away. She doesn't want to hear any more talk. You have to SHOW her your changes. They have to be consistent and enduring.

You're currently motivated in great part, if not exclusively, by selfishness. You don't want to lose what YOU have. You want back her trust. Your perspective is currently about you getting what you want.

You say you recognize that your unacceptable behavior and weak boundaries led to the sad state of your marriage, but you're motivated by how much YOU have been hurt and how much YOU stand to lose. Try instead to focus on being a better person and on learning to be a good husband and father. Focus on developing your integrity rather than on getting a comfy marriage. The change in perspective is subtle but the impact it will have on your growth and the healing of your marriage is huge.

To rebuild her trust:
Move back home.
Give up your cellphone or change the number or agree to swap phones with her whenever she requests it.
Get into a 12 step program and stick with it.
Continue your counseling.
Meet her ENs regularly.
Avoid all LBs.
Don't talk relationship talk unless she brings it up.
Offer to put a key logger on the PC and have all reports sent to her. Offer to do this for your work computer too.
Help her "bug" your land line telephone at home.
Tell her you're sorry, at least a couple of times a week.
Give her all your passwords.
Answer all of her questions with complete and total honesty, regardless of how badly you think the answer will hurt her; if the answer is painful, tell her with tact and compassion.
Offer to take a polygraph.

turtlehead,
Thanks for the reply.
I'd like to move back but she doesn't feel comfortable with that. I stay about once a week on the couch so I can wake up with the kids.

I think this is a mistake. A lot of repairing the problems is not going to be comfortable. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be done.

I'd be interested in hearing what others have to say about this.

The following is taken from a longer list that I created, incorporating the EN questions that she answered with actual behaviors as a start:

1.Family: Spend 1-3 hours/day with kids reading, going out, and using non tough-love.

2. Honesty and Openness: tell her everything and never be deceptive or lie, transparency of email, phone, etc. Tell her if anyone tries to contact me.

3. Affection: at least 2-3x/day give one or more hugs, gifts, say “I love you” “you’re a great wife or mother”, “I am grateful to have such an understanding wife”, listen to her for gift ideas.