I really like your letter, and I believe it states the truth perfectly. I am a little galled, though, that you and your family are expected to endure further punishment to accommodate her adultery and her avoidance of the consequences. I would not be willing to accommodate any such thing.

I agree that is isn't right that my family suffer because of her unwillingness to face the consequences, but at the same time, I failed my wife by not telling her the truth long ago. Giving her 3 days notice before she has to face my family is not doing my job to protect her. Their relationship was already not greatest, so she is expecting the worst. If she is unwilling to go at thanksgiving, she will need to at least call them on the phone in the near future and own up to her actions.

Well, bless your heart for being so empathetic totallyConfused9, however, please don't feel that you failed to protect your wife regarding this...You did NOT...Hopefully she will one day soon wake up and see that she owes you an apology for putting you in such a terrible position...I'm sure that you didn't relish going to your parents with that information - I'm sure that was very painful, embarrassing, etc for you...She put you in a horrible, horrible position...She disrespected both you and your parents...Bear in mind that I am telling you all this as a FWW myself...I HATE that I put my husband, Mr. Wondering, in the positions that I did and I have apologized repeatedly for it...I pray that she gets to that point soon...

Mrs. W

i would love to be able to bring her to this site so that she could hear from people like you and know that she is not alone in her feelings. But, i know that if i do that i will lose my only reliable source of sound advice. this place is such a good resource, it is a shame that only one of us is able to use it. Plus, even if i brought her here, she probably would not post. She is the type that would never take advice from random people in the internet. She won't even take advice from her own mother. she clearly has some issues to work out other than this affair. I just wish i knew how to help her.

TC,

What many like your W fail to understand that there is a difference between "taking" advice and "considering" advice and then making a decision.

Someone posting here is offered many views of things, different takes on things, completely different positions all based on some sound thoughts by Dr. Harley. The basis is sound the decisions have to be made by the person being spoken to. In this case it is you. If your W came here it would be her.

Ultimately it is YOU and it is your W that have to make decisions concerning the marriage and how it is going to be. Advice is just different perspectives on addressing the issues.

Perhaps someday your W will see this. If she does her relationship with her mother, your mother, you, and anyone who actually cares for her will change.

God Bless,

JL

I hope so, but right now I am afraid that "someday" will never come. I just wish I knew how to get through to her, but she seems so determined to deal with this A exactly the way she has dealt with problems since she was 2 yrs old, by running away from her problems by shutting out everyone around her and internalizing everything.

I am going to take a middle road here. I think that there is a lot of merit in what iam was saying.


Tc seems caught between two strong women...women who may be very alike. While I understand that in an ideal world, tc's wife "should" apologize to his parents, I also see big problems in a marriage where a spouse's mother believes that she is owed an apology by her son's wife. Sorry, that is taking motherly love too far, and that has probably been an issue in the marriage. It's not about caring; it's about control. TC's mother needs to step back and let her son handle things, and take her cue from him. It is never, ever a good idea to let parents steer the marriage ship. All she is doing is causing tc additional stress, which he does not need.

These family of origin issues are always far more complicated than can be conveyed on a forum.

That being said, for my part I did apologize to my MIL. We had a good relationship before and we continue to have a good relationship now. She let me know that she was in my corner completely....as long as I stayed married to her son, that is. The implication was that if I chickened out of recovery, if I didn't stick by my husband while he was having a difficult time, all bets were off. Her concern, and mine, was our children coming from a broken home.

Fair enough.

TC, if you are serious about recovery, you will let your wife know that you support her with regard to your parents. If the affair is over, no more surprises about who knows what. Your wife is your first priority. If she feels supported, she may eventually feel safe enough to apologize. But it is up to you to defuse the tension between your parents and your wife. The best way to do this is to get your parents to step off. This is not their fight. Their job is to support you - period.

Yes, they have fought over my time and loyalty for years. My mother as gotten used to the fact that I am not hers anymore and doesn't put pressure on us to spend a ton of time with my side of the family, but at the same time, she isn't the most welcoming to my wife when we are around. My wife usually never wants to spend time with my family because she gets a vibe that my mother doesn't like her. When we are with them, she hardly ever engages them in anything more than small talk. So, you are correct, the issues between them started way before the A.



As far as thanksgiving goes, hopefully we will be able to have a productive discussion tonight and decide together what our plans are.

However, it is very important to me that as a part of our recovery, that my wife and mother make amends and start to build a more meaningful relationship. I am very close with my family and need my wife to feel comfortable with them.

An understandable need. Thing is, you are dealing with a relationship between your wife and mother that wasn't on a good footing before. Now, with her affair, it is only more uncomfortable for both of them.

You can't change other people's feelings, and you can't make them act in ways that you would like. What you can do is conduct yourself in ways which will encourage better behavior from those who care about you. You can start by being a much stronger presence than you are.

The first thing is priorities - yours. I still say that your wife must be made to feel, through your actions, that she is your first priority. Your mother has to understand that you love her, but the issues in your marriage are your issues, not hers. Her job is to support you in whatever decisions you make. If you have chosen to recover your marriage, your mother must welcome your wife. Your mother does not get to decide what your wife ought to do. That way lies disaster.

You can't afford to look weak to either of these women, and I think that you do. Your wife will sense weakness and use it as an excuse to avoid your parents or to be uncomfortable around them. Your mother will use your weakness as an excuse to barge into your marriage and tell you what your wife ought to do. Look at what you have written here:


I will be blunt and tell you that if I were your wife I would feel that you are letting your mother run your marriage.

Your mother is way, way, way out of line. She sounds like someone who is used to running the show - a very strong woman. In order to avoid confrontation, your wife has decided to retreat.

Who is running your marriage? You or your mother?

If you strengthen your own position, in time I believe that you will find that the relationship between your wife and parents will mend. But you must take the lead, even if you have to grab it out of your mother's hands.

I understand your desires to have your wife make your marriage right.

I'm just curious, if family is so important to you, why did you choose your wife? Wouldn't you have been better served to find someone that meshed with your family better? Someone that held the same ideas? Why didn't you deal with this conflict before you got married?

Why would you choose to marry an emotionally unavailable person? Why did you ignore this huge red flag?

Perhaps, once you figure this stuff out for yourself, you might be able to better deal with the tug between your non-nuclear family (your parents) and your family that you have now (your wife).

Your recovery, now, is about you. Not about your wife, your mom, and holidays. You need to heal yourself, and your wife needs to heal herself.

pk,

I think you have diagnosed my problem perfectly. I have not been a strong person to either my wife or my mother. I am more the type of person who always tries to make everyone around them happy. As you might have guessed, that leaves me as the only unhappy one. Since this has started I have tried to become stronger for both my wife, and to my mother, but I am finding it difficult. But, I do feel I am doing a little better every day.

My wife and I decided to skip thanksgiving with my family and have a face-to-face with them on some later date. Here is the email I sent my parents. I know email isn't the ideal method of communication in situations like these, but I tend to lose my train of thought when discussing this stuff with people, so I found email a better way for me to get to all the points I want to make.

You have complained about WW being a conflict avoider.
Do you see the irony?

You have this trait too. You also seem rather passive-aggressive. You can bite and snipe via email, but can't address issues face-to-face.

These are some things you need to address and work on for your personal recovery.

I am fully aware that I am a conflict avoider, and am working on correcting that.




I have been working on the face-to-face, but I always seem to forget the points that I really want to make. Lately I have used email to state where I stand, and then have the face-to-face discussion.

You may not be the only unhappy one: As the old saying goes, if you try to please everyone, you wind up pleasing no one, least of all yourself.

I am glad that you have made this discovery. You can work from here!


I would strongly recommend that the face to face occur at your home, on your turf. A nice dinner that your wife has cooked, for example.


I think that communication is the key. If email works for you, then that is the best thing. Remember, this must be about you, first and foremost.

I have several comments about your email. I know you already sent it, but I see some issues. First: you are trying to take a stronger approach, yet what are you doing? Asking your parents to lie for you about the reason you are not there. Asking your mother's opinion of whether you should call your aunt.

That is a no-go. It is not what strong people do. Strong people do things for themselves. Strong people do not concern themselves with what other people think, but instead concern themselves with acting properly in accordance with their morals and principles.

You and your wife have been invited somewhere. Call your aunt. Tell her that you and your wife have some personal issues to attend to that will prevent you from attending. Thank her for her hospitality. End of call. Do not concern yourself with what people will think.

I'll tell you a little secret: people may talk briefly, but at heart people are very self-centered, and your issues will soon take a backseat to theirs. So, no worries. Save your energy.


You have just made a DJ (disrespectful judgement) toward your mother. Do not assume that you know what she is thinking. In fact, do not worry about what she is thinking at all. Just act in accordance with your own principles.

Look, I can tell that you are a good son and a good husband. For your own sake you need to continue to take steps to strengthen your position. If you act strongly, your family and your wife will treat you accordingly. You are taking the first steps now which is good.

I would not put this meeting with your family off for more than a week or two. It is very important for your wife to face your family. The longer she waits, the worse it will be. It is critical for her to show you that you are important to her, and she can show this by acting like a contrite spouse in front of your family. Admitting right away that she is wrong, and not becoming defensive will take the wind out of your mother's sails. It is also very healing! She needs to understand this. She also needs to understand that you are there to support her.

Your mother needs not to say much, but to listen more. The less she says, the better. Your wife needs to put on her big girl pants and take the lead. You have to have her back. Hold her hand. Put your arm around her as she talks.

It's a fine line, but it can be walked. It could be the start of a better relationship.

I will be hoping for the best for you!

TC,

I agree with PK. I know that you are conflict avoiding. However, your reason for not messing up everyone's Thanksgiving is sound and prudent.

PK is right, it is your call to make to your Aunt, you make it. Not your W, not your mother, YOU MAKE THE CALL and don't lie. You don't have to go into details, but simply say circumstances right now make it impossible for us to come to Thanksgiving. Please accept our apologies. We will see you... ANd then thank her again for the invitation.

Your mother is trying to protect you, because she feels you are not capable. However, even if she did, I think any woman on this site would want their child to NOT be hurt the way you have.

My suggestion is that YOU and your W come up with a plan to address the issues in the marriage, and yes the A is one of them, but not the only item on the list. You then tell your mother of your plans to address this marriage, you don't invite any comments, just tell her your goals, your plans, and ask for their support. And you also thank your folks for the support they have shown you so far.

As for your W, you tell her what you are going to do with respect to your family, but you expect her to haul some water in this deal as well. IF she feels she cannot, then perhaps you will need to make a decision that will address that issue.

It is time you started to express your feelings, your goals, and your need for successful achievement of these goals, and the women in your life can either climb aboard to stand on the side as the train pulls out. You want both of them in your live, you don't want either of them running your life.

Just remember this following phrase that I use when dealing with my family.
Conversely, noone would run YOUR LIFE like you would/could/should run it.

God Bless,

JL

Well, we got through thanksgiving pretty well. My W and I decided not to go see my family on Thursday and my mother was pretty upset. Instead, we proposed that we meet with my parents for lunch later in the weekend to clear the air.

My W was a wreck leading up to the lunch, but my parents were very non-confrontational and just expressed how much the want both of us to be happy and that they will always be there for us. They also talked a little about how we can learn from this experience and make our relationship better then it was before. Things went as well as i possibly could have expected.

Now, for the bad news

For a week and half there had been no contact between my W and the OM and I thought that we were doing pretty well. I even started to notice signs of withdrawal in my W over the holiday from the lack of contact. So in my mind, things were going as they should at the beginning of recovery until the OM emailed my W this morning. they have since emailed back and forth a few times today. Nothing in the emails is even close to the flirting that took place before, just general "how was your thanksgiving" and "hope everything is going well for you at home" kind of talk. But, I have no doubts that this will lead right back to where we started.

the OM always mentions that he will stop contacting her if she says so, but she never does. The tells him that her mind is full of confusion whether she hears from him or not.

So, I am not too sure what to do at this point. I cannot give up my email access because it is the only thing i have to spy with. One thing she has not agreed to yet is the need for a no contact letter, the thinks it is "unnecessary" since she says she just told the OM herself that things were over and not to contact her anymore. Either that was a lie, or he is not obeying her request. Either way, it is apparent that she cannot pull herself away from this.

I saw a gap in your posts, but it seems to me like you already confronted OM and told him to stay away from your W.

JL is on here and will give better advice than I, but I would expose to his W if you haven't done so and get another set of eyes on the communication. No contact is key.

Of course, I'm no model, I was the tazmanian devil on my d-day. And I now regret some of that acting out. But maybe it was needed to get to no contact.

OR, since you have his email address, you could just send him an email like:

"I know you have continued to contact my wife this week. I will know if you do so again. If I see one more sign of contact -- phone, text, email or any other method of communication whatsoever -- I am going to immediately (dire threat of exposure, work, wife, whatever)."

the OM's wife already knows, i exposed to her and and my W's mother and sisters a few weeks ago.

He has since told my W that he married his W for the wrong reasons, but that he was going to stay with her because of their two young children. It almost seems like he wants to get caught again so that maybe she will leave him so he can have a clearer conscience (if that makes sense in some twisted way).

In the emails today he has mentioned that he is worried that he might run into me one day because i might still be following them/him. Maybe i scared him when i confronted the two of them in the restaurant.

I have thought of contacting the OM's W to get her to install a keylogger so that both sides can see what is going on. They have been deleting every email sent and received since i blew things up a few weeks ago. But, the only other time i talked with the OM's W was when I told her about the A, and I asked her not to talk to her H until i could give her more of the details. She went to her H anyway, so i am not sure i can trust her to not over-react. If she tells him i have email access or a keylogger, he will tell my wife and then i am really in the dark.

Okay, the A is not over. If it was and your WW was truly sorry she would not but you through the pain of further contact with OM. You are lidding yourself if you think this is over and in NO WAY would I be expecting your parents to welcome your WW until this A is DEAD and BURIED!

TC,

It is time to put the match to this bomb. Contact continues. I would ask your W tonight if she has been in contact with OM? Ask her if he has sent her emails. You can look her in the eyes and say, "I KNOW your lying to me by the way you answered this question. I can see it in your face." Call OM's W tell her they are still in contact, right in front of your W. If OM answers tell him to put his W on the phone or there will be he$$ to pay.

Then sit down with your W and have a real heart to heart with her. It may be time for you to go to plan B, and that means SHE moves out in my book.

You have done plan A, but eventually plan B is necessary and Dr. Harley states that the biggest mistake people make is waiting too long to go to plan B.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL