Hi Fox,


It is hard Fox when most often my motivation has been some else's wellbeing...but I am learning.

For me, Plan B was the start...saying NO to WS's behaviour and choices which did not take into account my emotional well-being...and yes, at some level I was able to do it once I realized that it was that or risk getting lost in WS's chaos...

...and maybe Plan D doesn't feel as much as a 'do or die' step... so I am dragging my feet... and so the longer it will take me to get to the 'other side'....

...but I have to be patient with myself...and not focus or pressure myself to get to the outcome.... I seem to need to breathe through the process at my (very slow :RollieEyes:) pace!

I do see many here doing a great job and taking so much less time...again, I need to stop comparing myself...and stop putting pressure on myself...

I remember driving many here crazy....WS was being extremely disrespectful... I definitely did need to go to Plan B to protect myself, and it felt like I took forever to go into it, but I finally DID!

You did and do help me realize WHY I am having such a hard time...it's part of the puzzle...one more piece in place.

Thanks.

Hi CL,



Me, too...and I think to be able to do it, the balance has to be tipped....with more days of being 'ready'....


We know a bit how that feels already....I still think about WS...but not nearly as much as when he moved out, or when I first went into Plan B...and most certainly it is NOT nearly as PAINFUL!


I think this is the tricky part to evaluate....as long as I think I am moving 'forward' somewhat...because it's so new for some of us, we are really talking about baby steps, and on all fours, etc etc...we will eventually stand up!


...that's even worse than what's been quoted around here 1/5 yrs....

I try to not think too much ahead...let's take care of what we can do today...and I think it will all add up in a positive way 'in the end'....

I have been over to your thread...I know you also have some hard decisions to make...

I am certainly finding it helpful bouncing off thoughts and ideas around with all of you here...let's keep doing that...

...the 'key' or the 'answer' may be one word or one thought away...

I do believe that given some 'breathing room' with just enough 'pressure', the creative elements will kick in....and something we had never thought about 'surfaces' up....

I have seen it, over and over, in my life and on the Board....

Thanks. I love you all.

We love you so much....

Hi Luna,

I follow your story closely because it so resembles, until this day, my own story. We are on the same timeline and in the same place 4 years later.

I just want to give you some of my thoughts, maybe something will help.
First, I've asked Dr. Harley about letting go and he has answered that only God can help you with that. He has no techniques in his arsenal for letting go.

How's your relationship with God?

Mine seems to be good and I haven't been able to let go in spite of 4 years of plan B. Maybe when the divorce is over it will happen, maybe it never will and I will always be faithful to WH. But what choices are there? ruin someone else's life pretending? I don't see any solutions and therefore it has ceased to be a problem. It just is. And I'm not ashamed or worried about being a one man woman.

Second, have you really thought what it would be like to have your WH reluctantly say he will come back to you? what living with a person such as the one he must have become would be? It would be the hardest thing I would have to do in my life, I'm sure. I would only accept him coming back if there were all sorts of guarantees and boundaries and true remorse etc. I don't think I could survive a second experience like this. So although I seem to be a one man woman, AND there is nothing I would like more than WH stop being wayward, that does NOT mean I dream of a life with him again. I don't pray to God for that! I just pray that he ceases to be wayward. I don't want to even think of recovery... I don't even read about it for myself. If and when the time comes I will have to do a lot of homework, in a hurry.

Third, I would urge you to think of the alternatives to the things you find most difficult. Do some joint policy stuff with yourself... see if you can find solutions that will make you enthusiastic about things. And if there aren't, they really aren't a problem because there is no solution and it's best to accept things as they are until something changes, which always does. Nothing is for ever, not the good nor the bad.

I have to run to work now, but I keep you in my thoughts. You have come a long way, but I believe you can go even further. You can be a success story. It's really up to you, because your WH doesn't really have any power over you except that which you allow him to have.

big hug

Hi cc,

Thanks for posting.


It's not clear to me if you are in Plan D right now. Are you? Most here post-Plan D seem to think that it does get better, with time. It all depends what 'letting go' means. It's different for everybody. How do you see it for you?

If I remember correctly, you have two daughters. Are they living with you? ..and how is your work? ...I don't recall seeing your thread. Do you have one that you update?

I will think about some of the thoughts and suggestions, particularly the 'joint policy' stuff with myself, and I really appreciate the time you took to write the post. Thanks for your support.

Luna, I am in your same position, D in process, started in august but apparently stuck. After a couple of meetings to agree on splitting things which were simple we left it up to the lawyers and nothing has happened. I'm not pushing it because I want WH to be responsible for it. But any day now I may find out I'm divorced.

I have 3 daughters, 21, 21 and 20 all living with me. The house is on sale but nothing has happened so far. When it does sell, WH will rent a place for the girls and I will buy a place for myself and live alone.

But I have my own life now. And even if WH is on my thoughts permanently, I can live my life. So can you, you already have.

You can Luna, you can.

Hi Luna,

AA lovingly refers to this as living life on lifes terms. This is something every ADDICT needs to discover how to do.

Luna, G-d has your back, he is there providing the inner strength. Tap into his love for you, his guidance for you and his desire to help you through this.

You are surviving because you are a survivor.......

Luna, you have the most intelligent and thoughtful way of looking at stuff, but like me maybe sometimes we analyze because the feelings or sadness or whatever is too overwhelming. Feelings are feelings, they come and go, but our spirit for survival lives inside us because it's the light/soul of G-d blowing life into our abilities to get up each morning and move forward.

You truly are suiting up and showing up to this devastation and moving at the exact pace G-d wants. Trust him, believe that you are exactly where you are supposed to be.

I love you

Thanks cc and Queenie for dropping by.

I am feeling all sorts of 'emotions' surfacing up....

Your words of support are more than timely.

The truth of the matter is that...I feel overwhelmed by emotions...

My first thought, of course, is to come and post here...and share, shamelessly, that I feel...put simply...LOST.

Next will be...what do I intend to do about it...and how will I help myself... and get 'through'...

So, this is a start.

Thanks for being there, all of you.

Luna,

I'm an addict, not suggestiing you are at all. I avoid feelings at all cost, by using, drinking, eating, spending, whatever, to not feel.

I detest emotions and feelings...

What my AA sponsor drowned into me.... No amount of pain or feelings will kill you, it's what you do with those feelings that will.

I stuffed feelings and didn't allow myself to understand them or let them be, I had to do something with them. Maybe feelings are G-ds way of asking us to listen to him and learn from him.

Hi Queenie,


I agree... and I think the worse thing one can do is try to....ignore them! ....then, they start to accumulate... so, I am trying NOT to ignore them....and find time and space to feel the pain, the sadness (as these are the feelings we prefer avoiding as they not very pleasant to feel)....and let the tears fall... no questions asked... as our feelings are OUR FRIENDS.... they are wanting to let us know things.... like, what's important to us, what we value, so that decisions can be made and take all that into account....

...so, I am trying to 'listen', and let my feelings and emotions BE... while trying to function at the same time at the everyday level. It's a challenge. Trying to learn the tools to better cope with the challenge. It's not easy...once one decides that LIFE is worth the effort...it can be done.

Take care, Queenie. I really appreciate your thoughts and support.

Luna,

Are you feeling more lost now then you were before? If so, why do you think that is? What changed?

Are you lost in how to handle TODAY or lost in the unknown of the future?

Fox

Hi Fox,


I am seeing it as a progression from last week, which was very intensive emotionally, back home with family (about a day's bus away), and a lot of 'sharing' with people who knew and are mourning my Dad.

This is the first week back home, alone, and having to pick up where I left off, basically after a month and half of being on 'standby'. I have now managed to finish off first week back at work after being away a week.... so, I am seeing it just as the natural emotional fallout from the previous week.

Looking forward to the weekend and hopefully getting back to some sort of 'balance', and planning a bit where to go from here.

Someone at work gave me a sheet on 'grieving' which is quite helpful.

Inspite of all the pain, surprisingly, at least so far, overall, I still find the grieving process related to the loss of my Dad, which is 'expected', there IS a finality, and it's shared with many, and at least....it's nothing to be ashamed about!.... much more manageable emotion-wise than say, the emotions felt and related to the mess of dealing with WS's affair...the least of which is the damage done to one's self-esteem!

I think in the longrun, the loss of someone dear can actually help one focus more on what's really important in life....waste less time and get on with living it.

Before I may have always been too 'busy' (or didn't want to) allow space and time to experience my emotions...partly maybe not realizing their importance...so NOW I am trying to change that..... to find, here and there, between all that needs to get done.... time to let the emotions 'surface up'...whatever they are...without judging them!

Thanks for caring Fox.

Fox

I think that your Plan B so effectively sheltered you, it's not surprising that you have some stuff to deal with now that you are moving to a different stage.

You'll get through it, Luna, and be a happier person on the other side.

I agree with sdguy on this one. While Plan B serves a purpose, I have found that it puts other things on "delay" Which is good, I guess, since by the time you HAVE to deal with some of the issues, you are much stronger than before Plan B.

Your posts sound good, you are progressing and dealing with all the appropriate emotions. Sometimes, you just have to take LIFE as it comes.

It is shaping who you are.

The woman we have all come to admire.

Fox

Hi SD and Fox,


I would agree...and maybe too well.

As I can see 'differences'....ie. how I feel when WS picks up DS13...BEFORE I experienced a LOT of pain (partly due to then having phone exchanges all about DS13 'missing being home')... NOW the pain is 'manageable'...and it helps that DS13's focus is changing.. being in High School, becoming more autonomous, friends becoming more important, the 'dust' settling and some structure is in place..and so overall, the situation is less stressful for DS13!

WS sightings, and the occasional voice-message, also seem less 'traumatic' and painful...

WS does not see much of soon-to-be DS18 although they are in touch, see each other here and there for supper, and WS keeps 'reaching out', which I am glad he is doing for DS18's sake.

It's undeniable that DS18, having LESS to deal with (... a WS as a Dad and his need to 'legitimize' A with OP)....seems to mean LESS stress in general...and it seems to allow him more freedom, time and space to focus on HIM. He is at a crucial age...defining himself, and what he wants to do with his life! ...so, I keep a watchful eye, make sure he stays out of trouble...and even though I don't agree with some of his choices, like wanting to work instead of continuing his studies, I try to help by identifying some of the consequences of his choices... and then let him be.... and just continue to love him, support him and enjoy his company (when he's around which is not much...LOL!) as he's quite busy between school, part-time work, friends, and sports...but he is definitely ENJOYING life more than when he was expected to alternate and stay a week with WS.

The state of mind of a WS and the stages of adolescence really don't mix well together!

...and yes, the recent death of my Dad is also helping me reflect more on life in general... and I am determined to keep my focus on the part of my glass.... 'half full' rather than the 'half empty'...

...with Plan B I maintain the 'emotional' distance from WS to minimize the pain as a consequence of that self-centered state, and will continue to do so....UNTIL!

... however, I have unclear 'financial' ties with WS. This is getting 'uncomfortable' and sometimes downright stressful.... Plan D is forcing both WS and I to make decisions about that (and it's just not only about money, if it were, it would be easier....with some, comes letting go of the emotional ties to what were our future dreams).

With Post-Plan D, I can expect to be less vulnerable financially to consequences of WS's decisions... yet admittedly, right now, I find this option just as stressful...partly because the fallout of separating our assets is not yet clear.... and partly because it will mean taking on responsibilities that I chose to enter into only because they would be 'shared'... ie. our 'home' (one apt out of 4) is affordable only because we have tenants and income to help pay the mortgage....the option is that I buy out WS. This idea right now I find overwhelming, as I already have enough by having to take care of the boys and having a full-time job...so, short term...it may mean another MAJOR change to consider, and all the stress that goes with that!

...so, in a sense, I am having a bit of a hard time deciding.... like in elections where we don't like any of the candidates....so, choose the one we dislike the LEAST!

Thanks again for your input and for your patience and know that you are all helping a great deal.

Your posts give me a chance to identify and write out and share my concerns...which in turn helps 'undo' another knot in the process of my decision-making.

Luna, this is so true in my case too. I would have never started my business if I were single. It was a joint decision for our future, now WH is trying to force me to assume that burden and the burdens of other joint decisions alone.

The stress of thinking about all of this and getting through it is causing you pain right now. Do whatever is best for you Luna. You can bet that WS is doing what he thinks is best for him....

Hi CL,


...which is partly why before doing so...I have to be at least 'mentally' convinced that I will be OK, and think I will be able to deal with matters as they come up.... am trying to think up Plan Bs of what to do if I start losing sleep/overstress over burdens... or trying to turn 'burdens' into 'choices'.... whatever it takes...all the while being watchful not falling into the 'spinning the wheels' syndrome....

....and remember to KEEP BREATHING at the same time! :RollieEyes:

I just need a 'sounding board' about some thoughts.

Looking in from the outside, I would say I am somewhat 'stuck'. Liking playing chess, and being in a stalemate. Trying to see why and what I can do about it, and hopefully some of you may have some suggestions about what's going on.

a) I still haven't given up my wanting, nor of the possibility of seeing my family reunited, which probably means my Lbank is not yet in the red (partly because I have protected it with my Plan B) and this does not help me to move on with Plan D. Do I need to get the Lbank in the red? ...which would in turn help me give up on R?

b) WS has not totally 'disconnected' (sometimes I think if he was being totally horrible it would be easier), and has remained 'respectful' (as much as can be expected from a WS):
- inspite of a few attempts asking me to break Plan B and consider 'friendly co-parenting', he is respecting my Plan B seeing it's what I asked
- we are both accommodating with DS12 schedule, and WS has responded well at a few emergencies
- aside from the A itself, he is not being abusive verbally (ie. blaming me, etc. in fact, at some level, inspite of the frustrations, he may even have some pride at how I am handling myself)
- WS and DS12 get along, and WS continues to reach out to DS17

c) I know that Plan D was put in process last year by WS mostly to give WS 'legal' custody on boys...as last year, DS17 decided to stay with me without WS's consent... and WS thought it might have worked out differently had something 'legal' been in place.. (which I doubt, because DS17 was ready to confirm his wishes in front of a judge, if he had to)... and also, because it makes it hard to 'share' responsibilities and make decisions regarding our properties while I am in Plan B, but with Plan D, I have issues with having to take on some of the burden...alone! ...seeing that I think I already have a lot on my plate...uurrgh!

...because I do feel the need to clarify and ask WS, in a direct way, if Plan D is really what he wants? ....tell him directly that it's not what I want? ....but, then, I shouldn't expect much if he is still in fogland...ONLY...I would have made it clearER!

d) WS and OP: since just this summer, they are no longer working together, and they have just recently started to 'live together' (but I also know for a fact that it's, at least partly, for financial reasons). I would be curious to see how they handle 'everyday life' over a period of time. And so, that's also putting a break on my Plan D process.

e) In the past, a few of my 'reminders' about the option of R with NC with OP, was an opportunity for WS to remind me that he was in love with OP and that he wasn't interested in R. Recently, because of my Dad's condition/death, in his own way, WS has shown some 'support' (as much as he can given the Plan B conditions), and on one occasion I again reminded him, more or less, that it 'didn't have to be this way'.... and I was very surprised by his 'silence'.... (and of course that leaves it open to a lot of interpretation)

I still believe part of the problem is WS's fear of failing at R, losing OP, and coming out of it as a lose-lose... but I am not sure what I could do to reassure him...nor could I really.... because at some level, it does involve a risk...and a mostly a lot of work.

f) With my dad passing away...I've run out a little out of gas....gotta have a refill before the next trip...Plan D!

...and this allows me to see, inspite of all the difficulties my mom faces, that the 'finality' of his absence is helpful to her. In affairland, that's the difficult part, knowing what could 'still be' but isn't!

So, basically, I don't see it as being healthy to stay in Plan B 'limbo' (...or am I feeling the pressure that somehow it's not normal to stay in it that long?)....so, I either ADD Plan D to it and move on, or come out of it for R. As you can see I am a little 'stuck'. Plan D is not what I want, it would be by 'default'....and the mediation is expected to continue in that direction.

For sure, as long as OP is in the picture, R will not be possible, and yet, I don't see all the elements in place where R is totally hopeless, and making it easier for me to move on to Plan D and not look back.

Anyways...Something's got to give.

It's like wanting to move forward with breaks on....because I am not interested in being in a new R...but, then, would I be were I 'free' to have one after Plan D? ...you know...what's first, the chicken or the egg?

...I am functional, but I think life could be better, just not sure what to do about it at this point.
:RollieEyes:

...and sorry for the long post.

You know what really stinks about all of this? You, ultimately, have to make this decision. We could say all sorts of stuff here about letting go, moving forward with the D, and letting your heart heal, but the answers lie within you. If you are not ready to get a D, then don't. IF getting the D will cause you a lot of monetary strain, maybe putting it off is the right thing for you.

Have you considered contacting the Harleys for them to be your sounding board, if you can afford it, of course?

Plan B really does preserve the love you have. Sure, your WH has shown that he can be human instead of a piece of trash, when the poo hits the fan, but you haven't seen him everyday, and aren't privvy to all that is happening. If you were, you prolly wouldn't be giving him the benefit of the doubt here.

I agree with the MB principles, to a point. Sometimes, I think Plan B can keep you 'stuck' in that limbo, and serve only to elongate the process of D and mourning. In my case, it could have gone on a long time, seeing as I'm the one who finally filed for D. Actually, I did all the initial legal work, from the LSA down to filing for D. Seems the Z really does enjoy his cake :RollieEyes:

Hi SL,


Don't you think it's been put off enough already though? The hurdle needs to be faced....sooner or later, and I can't think of many (at least BS's) who willingly go for D, if another viable option was available.

There already is a monetary strain with the separation...the D will add to that... would I want to wait a little longer to avoid it a little longer? Will it be worth it having to deal with WS via Plan B?


Would I need to see that, SL, a bit like you did....allow the Lbank to go into red, to help me make THE decision. I also know that it was a very painful process for you, what amounted to being a False Recovery. I am debating whether I really need to go there to be able to 'move on'....see WS's true colors! ..to kill the hope in a sense.


This is what I mean, SL.

I also see Fox, having interactions with WxS....and it looks liveable NOW...although I am not too familiar how things went for Fox pre-plan D.

It's hard going into plan D with doubts and hopes. I think one needs to go into it, to be able to get through, with some sort of certainty that there is no other way....and I am not sure I am there yet...but does one ever get there? I guess that's my question. Even post-D, is this something we have to learn to LIVE/COPE with...but never resolve?