Sorry FH but i guess i do not want this type of help. I believe my feelings of how my H is "flirty vs freindly" are my feelings and i am entitled to have them. My H believes that they are ridiculous and that i am not entitled to have them.

I do not see how discussing it in a different way (even though i have brought it up several different ways already) is doing anything different than i am currently doing.

I do not beleive that repeating my words for the hundreth time is going to make him change his thought on the matter. Maybe , just maybe if it was an issue that started during the A i could, but this has been a marriage long issue that i have discussed with him for 25 years and we still see things differntly.

Sorry if i offended any of you.

If you do not ever want to post to me again than that is your prerogative.

I can still come here and read and post if i want and who knows maybe someone will be able to help me with a "light bulb" moment.


All i know is that on this particular issue there is no changing my H's thoughts and there is no changing my thoughts.

All the advice i have been given so far is to try to approach things in a different way.

That WILL NOT work in my situation, i have tried for 25 years to approach things in a different way and we still both have the same feelings.

He should not HAVE TO CHANGE. But, he can choose to change if it is good for him and good for you. Sounds like you are forcing him so it is only considering you.


You apologized? It sounds like he may have a point and you also agree with this point.


Is his "just let them go" in response to the items you actually agree with. If you agree and apologized for what you agree with then is let that part go a reasonable solution for that part that you both agree. Then keep negotiating on the part that you don't agree with.

Keep negotiating. When you run into snags, go back to the principles/goals of marriage to guide the negotiation. Have you both agreed to the principles/goals of marriage?

What i apologized for was for the fact that i can not change my "perceptions" because i do not feel that my "perceptions" are wrong, just as he feels his "thoughts" are not wrong.

So we do not agree on any of the issues i have discussed in this thread. He does not by into the MB principles or MC or any of the above. His philosophy is that we just need to figure things out on our own. Actually more like i just need to change my mind and get over it and see things his way.

He is that way in a lot of our discussions, if we do not have the same thoughts on something i will just say that i disagree with his thoughts, he will always push me and push me until i finally just tell him i agree with him because he will not stop until i do.

By what he has said to me his marriage goals are for our M to be like it was pre-A. My marriage goals are for our M to be better than it was pre-A.

He claims he still does not know "why" he had the A and he has lied to me about the A since the begining. I have found out things through other sources and he then tells me but he has never given me the whole story and has no intention of ever doing so, he says he does not want to hurt me anymore than he already has. I am sure that this does not help my "perceptions" either.

Like i always tell him if i do not know what is wrong how can i do my part to help to make it right.

I also told him the day that i said i think we should go our separate ways that the reason was i did not think it was fair to either one of us to continue in a marriage we we are both unhappy. I also told him that i would take all the blame for the marriage failing to everyone including our children.

Your last few comments sound just like WS fog babble. Are you really the BS?

And therein lies the problem, SC.

YOU don't know how to address this problem and you don't think anyone else does either. You think "giving up" is the answer.

I believe my feelings of how my H is "flirty vs freindly" are my feelings and i am entitled to have them.

And you ARE entitled to your feelings. People "feel" what they feel. "Feelings" are not necessarily "right or wrong," they just "are." They are responses, normally, to ACTIONS or INACTIONS that impact your perception of the world and of relationships.


My H believes that they are ridiculous and that i am not entitled to have them.

And your husband is equally entitled to HIS "feelings" based upon HIS perceptions as he "sees things from his perspective," just as you are entitled to your "feelings."

Let me ask you a question, have you ever been to Joint Marital Counseling since you've been in recovery?

If you have, why did you stop?

If you have not, why wouldn't you consider it now where there Counselor is an "independent third party" who will hold BOTH of you accountable for changes that would benefit the Marriage?

Because my H does not believe in counseling. He thinks we should just be able to get through this ourselves.


And i guess i will just quit posting since you all think i am crazy too i guess maybe i am.

Thank you all for your responses. I will not bother any of you anymore.

Yes i am really the BS. And i do not beleive in the fog so say what you will.

I am leaving this place for good even though i have said it before and been back this time i really am.

I guess maybe i am the crazy one. I am sorry i bothered all of you with my woes.

SC, playing the "martyr syndrome" will not help your anger. It may try gain sympathy, but no one around here is dumb enough to think that "all the problems" are "one-sided." And your children are not likely to believe it either.

Your husband is "dumb as a rock" if he thinks "returning to pre-Affair" type of marriage is even possible.

Now, would he "hear" that truth from you? Or would it make more sense coming from someone outside of the marriage who has the experience to KNOW that it IS true?

The affair ENDED the marriage. Recovery is about forming a NEW marriage.

The affair ENDED "bliind trust." Earned Trust can be attained, but it is EARNED through changes in behaviors that "say;" "I can't be trusted" TO behaviors that say "I CAN be trusted." But trust is no longer given "just because."

Recovery is all about CHANGES that need to be made by BOTH spouses.

It would seem that you have been in some "semi-recovery" state of "change by osmosis," and that does not work. Change requires willingness and commitment. It is a CHOICE, just like having an affair was a choice. Just like the BS choosing to stay and attempt recovery was a choice.

Just like actually WORKING on recovery is a choice. It does not happen by "accident" or by simply "wishing" it were so.

Got it. DON'T go see a Doctor if you are sick or injured, just "do it yourself."

Stick around long enough and we can even help you get through this attitude of his to where he literally "begs" for counseling.




If you want to. That will be your CHOICE.




Do your really think that you are the first person to have "recovery problems?"

IF we think we might be able to help some "get past" the problems they are running into, we try to post to them.

If not, we don't post.

But you are NOT REQUIRED to accept any advice or help you don't want to.

Good luck, and should you want to explore ideas for helping with this problem or other problems, just post again.

FH i am only posting to respond to your post. I have tried to get my H to go to an IC for the same 25 years i have been trying to get him to see that his friendliness with other women "hurts" me.

He had VERY bad issues that he never discussed with anyone except for me with his FOO. He refuses to talk to anyone. He says he does not want to discuss his persoanl issues with anyone much less a stranger.

I really am not trying to be difficult with any one. I am just trying to tell you all that i have tried MANY MANY MANY things in the 25 years i have been with my H and so far none of them have worked.

I do not want sympathy from him or my kids or any of you. I just was trying to not make my H feel any more guilty than he already does. That is why i said i would take the blame for not being able to "get over it". So call me whatever you wish.

PS he also does not go to the doctor if he is sick. Heck the only reason he had part of his lung removed was because i MADE him go to the ER after he had a 103 degree temperature for 6 days.

Two things, one, these don't look like effective goals. Goals are usually much more specific if they are to be effective. And two, its clear you both aren't in agreement on where you are going.

If you can't agree on the goals of marriage then it makes alot of sense to go a different direction.

Okay, and YOU were right and HE was wrong. There WAS a serious problem regardless of what he "thought."

And that incident is the basis of "how to" that you can use to help your situation.

"Perception" of help that might be needed is not always the "true" condition. It wasn't in the "ER" and "Lung" case and it's NOT true in the "one flesh" case of a marriage. And it is certainly NOT true in the "recovery from an Affair" cancer that has nearly destroyed the "one flesh marriage." Parts of the marriage are still functioning, but the untreated cancer is still growing and sooner or later it WILL kill the marriage if it is NOT treated.

The "patient" (the marriage) IS in serious trouble even though the "symptoms" may not yet seem "debilating." But for the same reason you take children for shots or to get treated, you also take the "marriage" to someone who CAN provide needed help and treatment to both prevent problems from "infecting" the marriage and to treat problems that exist so that "health" can be restored.

And arguments of "I have tried but he refuses" are "unacceptable excuses," IF, and I do mean IF, YOU really would like to return your marriage to a state of health and continued improvement.

Therefore, it needs to be approached from a "position of strength," not of surrender. NO battle was ever won by surrendering, except for the surrendering of one's life to God. But since we are not talking about God here, THAT one exception does not apply right now.

And retreating from the marriage IS a form of surrender to the "problems" instead of aggressively fighting the cancer, going through the tough times of treatment, to arrive at a restored and healthy body.

This is not about being right or being wrong to me. It is a matter of a difference of opinions. I do not feel that i am "right or wrong" nor do i feel that he is "right or wrong", we both just see things differently.

My problem is that whether either of us is "right or wrong" the fact that it "hurts" me should be enough for him to want to not do that something. Just as it does me. I do not purposely want to "hurt" my H and if i can do something different so that i do not "hurt" his feelings then i try to do that.

And i expect that in return, whether that is "right or wrong" either.

And i agree that I am surrendering, i have never tried to state anything else.

So it sounds like to me that what you are saying is that we need to see a counselor regardless of whether he wants to or not.

Would this not be a LB, would this not be doing the same thing you all are telling me is "crazy"? Trying to get him to see things from my point of view. And how can i "make" him go to a counselor?

Ok, I see the lack of committment to a strategy as 'crazy'.

I read this:


And then this???


Then this recommendation:


But you say no to it which, to me, contradicts your strategy and the game of "chicken" is right on as your not sure of this strategy.

Then to this(the real problem you are trying to solve):


To maybe this strategy since I can't fully follow the other strategy:


Either commit fully to this strategy #1:


Or this strategy #2:

Instead of focusing on the specific issue(s) for now, focus on gaining agreement on the goals/principles of marriage.

The MB goals of marriage are to create a lifestyle that is good for both of you, to avoid being the source of each others unhappiness, and become each others greatest source of happiness.

If you can't come to an agreement, you can both agree to go another direction and this answers his question of:


Most importantly, choose a path and be committed to it.

Hinting does not express committment it expresses doubt and he tested you on this:


I read this to be another one of your strategies to get H to change. By placing all the blame on you he has no responsibility and maybe, maybe he will feel guilty and then change.


But, he calls your bluff every single time.

Hi, I’m a first time poster here and wanted to say how much I enjoy and have learned from the MB website. I have an observation here and if I’m way off, sorry and hope to continue learning from here.
From what the BW is posting, it seems as if her WH’s top EN is not Admiration, but Physical Attractiveness. He has what sounds like a compulsion (he knows it gets him in trouble, but doesn't want or is unable to stop) to troll for attractive young women. Then he makes a statement to his wife that he would have married a beautiful woman if he hadn’t married her. What an odd thing to say and you could take it a couple of different ways. Did he mean that normally he was attracted to beautiful women but BW was so incredible that he married her despite PA issues? I would hope so because then it seems like their marriage is just having problems, not fundamentally flawed.
I would try and figure out what the story is with this EN. Can the BW take care of it with going to the gym, wearing nicer clothes and doing more with make up? Or can his EN only be met by a young hottie? Then there is nothing that the BW can do to meet it. It's sad because chances are he will never be able to attract what he’s looking for and he’s throwing away something good. But it's foolish for the BW to hit her head against a brick wall when there is no physical way she can meet his top EN. She can find someone who appreciates her for what she is.
The issue is not that WH prizes PA so highly. It’s that he didn’t address this issue before marriage. It’s like marrying a man and knowing beforehand he loves his profession which doesn’t pay very much, while knowing that Financial Security is your number one EN. He will constantly be made to feel badly about what he is and feel that you will bail the minute Mr. Gotbucks crooks his finger. Couldn't this be some of what the BW is feeling?

Well i guess i just did not explain myself well enough.

My plan is whenever we have to move out of our house due to the bankrutpcy (our attorney said approx 6 months after the motion was filed and it officially was filed this month November so i am guessing we will have to be out in May 2009), I will get my own place and he will get his own place.

I have no intention of EVER making it "legal" as i have no desire to even date again much less get married again.

If my H wishes to make it "legal" he may certainly do so at any time, even prior to us moving out of our house if he wishes (obviously we all can do that).

I have told my H that this is my desire. That i no longer want to live with him. That is when he just said "okay".

Since then he has asked all of the question that i posted before and that i did not respond to. I figure why should i give him false hope as the way our marriage is currently i do not wish to remain here. And i have told him this as well with his usual response.

The reason i still post and still ask questions is because i really do not want to leave my marriage. I am just not willing to have my feelings ignored any longer, as i said whether they are right or wrong you should not intentionally "hurt" someone you love and he is well aware that him talking to other women the way he does "hurts" my feelings.

However he sees things differently and thinks that his actions SHOULD NOT "hurt" my feelings and that i just "overreact" so he WILL NOT change his actions. And yes he has said that to me many times.

I do not know if this post made anything clearer or not but i will leave it at that.

Well i would say from my perspective this is a good observation.




Lets suffice it to say that i am 5 foot 8 inches tall, i weigh 125 pounds (and have since high school other than while i was pregnant), i am a professional so i "dress up" every day, and i wear make up every day (sometimes not on the weekends).

I probably am a "plain jane" but who wants to be told that especially by your spouse. And once again this is not a sympathy thing, i do not feel i am ugly by any means, but i am not "beautiful" either.


I also wanted to comment that i do believe your statement about


I feel that he obviously was attracted to me for some reason and continues to do so otherwise why would he have stayed me for 25 years.

However then you take this statement


And this is exactly how i feel. Because of his continued behavior with "attractive" women it is like i am waiting for the shoe to drop AGAIN all of the time.

And no matter how many times i have told him or how many differents ways i have told him (some AO, some calm rational discussions) it "hurts" me when he does this, we see differently on this and he does not feel he should have to change his actions and i feel he should.

FWIW to me it is NOT a game of "chicken".

In the 25 years me and my H have been together, he has had a problem with saying he wants to leave or wants a divorce during most arguments we have. After the A i told him that if he continued to say that i was going to believe him and go ahead and leave, so he quit saying it (and i am thankful and have told him i am thankful).

On the other hand, i have said those words a total of 3 times in that 25 years and i enforced MY boundaries the first 2 times and i ended up leaving the home. Once pre-A and once after D-day. It was not a game of "chicken" then and it is not a game of "chicken" now.