I understand you feel some financial constraints in your marriage, but I think there is so much going on in your relationship, that your H is feeling like you are trying to fix him all the time, so he is shutting down. You love him so you want to help him, but it is important not to enable him. As well, looking for a job while employed is ideal, and he did apply, just a bit too late. As opposed to telling him what you feel is the best way to tackle this challenge in his life, why not ask him how he likes tackle it. The problem is that he needs to get a job, so ask him questions as to how he plans to go about it, and when he feels he will complete this mission. If he says two months, and it is something that you can live with then support him, by giving him a chance to show you he is capable. That being said, consider defining some short term boundaries on expenses until that job comes through as that would be the natural trade off. If he doesn't have a job by the end of his employment some sacrifices have to be made. Define things from a proactive position rather than in a reactive position, and he will feel he is contributing to the solution, as opposed to being the problem. That will likely make you more approachable to him, which is what you want. Also, consider having a plan B in place should he not get the job in the time line he has forecasted. That way, you both will know what lies ahead in your future, and you will not feel the need to help him, because you both have an understanding. He will be meeting some of your EN by communicating with you, and actively working on the FS issue, and you will be meeting some of his EN by giving him space to do what he has to do, resulting in him feeling like the man of the house. (Which could be what he isn't feeling.)

Concentrate on yourself and making changes within yourself. When you start to change your actions, you will change your husbands reactions. (If every day you make coffee the exact same way, he is going to react the same way, but if the next day you make the coffee too strong, he is going to react differently, by either saying something about it, or not drinking it.) That is how easy it is to make change.

Try focusing on one problem at a time. When you have several problems going on at one time, it gets so confusing and so complicated, that some people feel overwhelmed and just shut down. When you work on one problem at a time, you have a greater chance of success. Small steps can lead to great rewards.

Hi Enlighten_Me,

Thanks for your comments. I'm wondering if you would post your own story here? I think it's always a good idea to know and understand the source of advice, as we all see the world through our own filters. Also because we have had some bad experiences on these boards from trolls.

And I appreciate your concern for my husband's employment. You may want to read some posts from the past 6-7 months.

Dear Jayne,

I am sorry if I came across as offensive in any way. I am certainly not a troll, but merely a person who wanted to offer a different perspective. It is up to you to decide if the information offered is something for you to consider or not, or if the information is useful. No harm intended.

Have a good day.

Thanks Enlightened,

But my husband HAS a new job, a wonderful job, in a wonderful place, that I've been raving about for the past few months. I guess that's why I questioned where you were coming from.

LOL...I am a newbie and I do not know my way around very well, so I started to read this thread from the beginning, thinking this was all said yesterday or the day before. (I read the post where you were concerned about your H being out of work soon, and I tried to quote the section I was responding to, but messed up.) Little did I know that this thread has been going on for some time, until I read your most recent post.

You have enlightened me, thank you!

Well your name does say "Enlighten Me". Glad to oblige!

It's ok, we're all newbies at one time or another. What you said could've been very relevant, in a very different time zone. It was a difficult time. Things are much better now. (But we do still have problems to work on. The recent posts by Pep reminding me of Buyers, Renters, Freeloaders have been very helpful. I'll post about it when I have time. *sigh* I seem to be a slooooooow learner. Thanks for your patience.)

Jayne, I'm looking forward to it!

Have you thought about Cat's advice about separating out the "have tos" from the "want tos" and "would like tos"? How are you doing with the FC time and the UA time?

Enlightened_Me,

Welcome to MB, btw.

Wanted to let you know that you may be mistaken (for those of us who glance at your name before we reply) for another much longer-term member, Enlighten_Ex. Now that I see yours, I'm not sure of his.

Jayne...

How did it work out for today?

Ya left me on pins and needles. Okay, maybe snow and icicles.

Rusty at posting...hmmm. I can relate.



LA

Actually things worked out perfect! The thing H and I were supposed to go to was canceled due to weather, and it's a good thing cus the boys' school also started 2 hours late due to weather. Since we had planned on being away, we hadn't planned on being at work, so we were able to stay home with the kids until time to take them into school, plus we were able to go see 6a's Christmas play. Adorable!!! 6b and a replay of 6a is Wednesday.

Plus the electricity was out at H's work so it was a good thing he stayed home anyway.

Tonight my mom flies in, delayed from yesterday, which was good for her since she needed to do something this morning at her place anyway. So a win-win-win all around.

Brrrrrr, it's freaky cold here! And of course we decided to go chop down our Christmas tree yesterday, when it was cold even by Canuck standards. I remember chopping down our own tree when I was a kid, but somehow it didn't seem quite the ordeal, in Tennessee... not nearly so cold and never any snow! Here the snow was up to my knees, easy. That's just how far down I'd sink. It was prolly deeper. You wouldn't believe the tree we ended up with either, it must be about 15 feet tall!!! Oops! It doesn't even fit into our garage! And by the time we got it home, half the branches musta broken off! We're rookies, apparently.

So I'll hopefully be able to post a more thought-out reply tonight after we get mom home. In the meantime, y'all remember asking me what would make me be enthusiastic about not getting a German shepherd (censored)? Well I finally have an answer. A friend of mine is trying to re-home a palomino. I'll settle for her.

As in a horse???
The mind boggles as to house breaking that! :MrEEk:

I am so happy to hear everything is going well for you. Yay for Jayne!

Yep, lildoggie the cowgirl knows her hawses. I've wanted a palomino ever since I was a little girl. I even had a pony once when I was little.

Oh well I'm feeling awfully withdrawn tonight. I feel like H's work is the most important, the only important thing to him. I have to make up for everything else, in spite of me also having a full-time stressful job (and we just finished finals week, quite stressful). Again this week he backed out of picking the kids up the one day a week I'd requested, even though this week I also had a help session and needed to finish preparing and printing an exam even though I didn't have access to a printer after 5:00 and the copier ran out of toner. So it was the worst day all semester for him to renege. The entire semester I think he's picked the kids up about 5 times on Wed.

The one thing that I've released, and I refuse to feel guilty over, is I've stopped cooking and planning meals, and some other DS stuff like cleaning the kitchen. It's the only thing that I know will get done even if I don't do it. But things like reading to the kids, doing family things like get movies for a movie night, help them learn something, tuck them in, bring them a glass of water, etc, well he just spends *every* *single* *moment* (except when he's preparing dinner) at the dinner table in front of the computer. No interacting with the kids or anything. Bah humbug. :wavingsanta:

So he just now wanted to put the cats out of the bedroom when he came to bed. I borrowed a line from hold and said I didn't want him to do that, they were the only ones interacting with me. (When hold had said something like, msr.hold should let him get a puppy so he wouldn't be seeking affection from her.)

I need to call Steve again. I tried asking H to join on a phone call. I asked more than 3 times even though Steve said only to ask 3 times, because the 3rd time I asked, H said he'd "think about it." So I asked if that meant I should ask him later, and he gave some sort of noncommittal sound. So I've asked him every few days since then, and he keeps saying he doesn't know yet.

I've tried telling him that I just want to work on having a great M, I'm not accusing him of anything, and him talking to Steve would just be for Steve to get his side of things to help me know what I can do to improve things.

Earlier I've tried making it as clear as possible that I am not happy with the lack of intimacy and communication, that this is not the type of M I want, and that I am seriously unhappy about it. He doesn't take any of it seriously. I guess cus I don't ever follow through with anything. I don't know what sort of BC's (Boundary Conditions) I could set or how I'd enforce them.

This is not a marriage though. This is a business arrangement, to run a household, etc.

Anyway, back to calling Steve - I'm giving up on H agreeing to talk to Steve. But now I can't call him myself cus my mom is in town, and there's no way I'm gonna make such a call with her around. It'll have to wait until after New Year's. I sure hope Steve has some advice though on what I can do. The last conversation was introductory of course, and then just about getting H to talk to Steve. I'd really like to know what he thinks I could/should do. It'll have to wait I guess.

LOL,
I only know a few horses, appalosas, drysdale, clydesdale, palomino, pit pony, shetland, horse
And I can't spell any of them.



I hope he can advise you on these.

Hi ears,


Yes it's been the end-of-semester stress on top of the Holidays Rush with an added dash of a whole lot of proposals I'm now involved with. Thanks for being patient with my absences. Finals are over, now it's just grading, plus the Christmas and proposal stuff, so I have time to drop in here every now and then when I need a break.


Hmmm, this is very interesting. I hadn't thought of it like that before. I knew that the State of Conflict was supposed to be a step up from Withdrawal but I couldn't picture how that would look in real life. But I think you're right... I go into Withdrawal, then I'm so stupid (sorry, I'm just letting you know openly and honestly how my internal dialogue goes) I'm so stupid that it only takes 15 minutes of him being nice for me to let down my wall. That's when I get suckered into thinking I can trust him to meet ENs. I start *expecting*. Expectation leads to disappointment, right?

On his side, I'm not sure what him being in a State of Conflict would look like. Since he just shuts down at the slightest sign of conflict. Since even in good times he seldom communicates.

I can see that the way for *me* to feel like we've worked through some issues, would be to go from Withdrawal and into Conflict and work through the Conflict. Then I would be able to feel like *something* (even if not everything) got resolved, and would then be able to feel intimacy.

But what if he refuses any conflict? I feel like the only options he will allow are either a cold withdrawal atmosphere, or a sweeping everything under the rug, just get over it and let's act like everything is wonderful atmosphere. Which means (for me) that things were ignored not resolved.

Oh boogers. Here I go again. Feeling all frustrated about a guy who doesn't cheat on me or anything, and who does his half of the DS. Boogers boogers boogers. (Will that get censored?) Is there something wrong with me? It's a long time before I'll have privacy to call Steve again.

Should I just resign myself to a business-partnership style marriage with no intimacy? Is the best I can hope for just a friendly getting along?

If I come back here in ten years and say there was never any real intimacy in our M, will ppl say I'm re-writing history? Just curious. I wonder every time I hear of a spouse saying that, and ppl say they are just re-writing history, if that's always true. So I'm not asking for myself necessarily, just wondering in general.

I don't like feeling withdrawn like this right before Christmas. Mom wanted to try to think of what to get H. I told her that it's useless trying to get him anything that he didn't pick out himself, and that he doesn't want anything, he's bought everything he would want already. I'm missing out on what may be the most fun part of Christmas to me - figuring out what to get folks. The only ones I'm wanting to get presents for is the kids. Anything I would want for myself I know I'm not getting.

Oh well, here I am neglecting my other duties in order to come onto Marriage Builders, and everyone else is out somewhere having a life, Building their Marriages.

Here's an LB I've been doing more lately. I've been making little snide comments, said in a somewhat light-hearted way, but they are indications of complaints I have. I do it because I feel it is the only way I can lodge any complaints. He refuses to have any discussion. But probably each time I do it, I undo tons of meeting ENs, and goodness knows I don't have any of those to spare.

So what do I do? If I try to have a reasonable discussion, I get ignored; he doesn't participate, turns completely silent and/or walks away; if I persist, it's a huge LB. If I try to stuff it, it leaks out in snide comments. Do I just stuff harder?

Do I need to stop reading MB for awhile and stop thinking about my M and concentrate on other things?

H drove my mom to the nearest big town for Christmas shopping. I don't feel enthusiastic about anything Christmas except for the kids.

ETA: I forgot that I also wanted to say that H initiated SF this morning. This is the second weekend in a row that he's done that. It's probably just the 3rd or 4th time he's asked for SF ever. I wasn't really interested for myself but I went along just because he so rarely initiates. I figured it was an easy LB$ deposit.

Then I think I blew it with a cynical attitude when he asked about Christmas shopping. He didn't seem to be bothered, he just smiled and joked about it. When he said he was going Christmas shopping, I told him to pick something up for himself, he laughed and said, like last year? Last year we didn't really get each other anything, just not enough time, but H wrapped up some nice shampoos and conditioners, one kind for me and one kind for him. So he said he'd ordered some shampoo again this year.

I hear a lot about you wanting, needing and desiring to "discuss issues" with your husband. Is this all the communicating you want to do with him?

Is there any other kind of communication you can do with him that is pleasant and happy? Or is it all about issues and marriage problems. If only we at MB could see a video of how you and your husband interact. We do not get the whole picture enough to advise you properly.

Sometimes I picture it in my mind. Your husband buries himself in the computer so he does not have to talk to you and you demanding he talk more and more and again and again.

I see you as continually demanding him to speak. And speak about difficult issues. I see him as being sick of that. Therefore both of you are not getting what you need.

Hey Jayne, could you just be happy WITHOUT anything from your husband? I think there is a limit as to what we can expect from another person. Do you want a man who is like a "girlfriend" who you can talk to day and night and will respond sensitively to your every word?

He is a man. Not all of them talk much.

Hi, Jayne, I've only got a minute. Want to jump in the shower, I went to the gym hours ago, and been on the run since! Wouldn't want to do date Night all misty LOL. I remember living up north, it was so cold we never got misty.

Anyhow, I wanted to say, there's nothing wrong with you. This is how you feel in withdrawal. Just a suggestion, the 180 is a less painful way to be in withdrawal. Or stay in withdrawal, up to you. I totally trust that you are doing exactly what you need to be doing today. Oryou may already be on the way back from withdrawal, but haven't gotten far enough to see it yet. All those early morning deposits and taking your mom off your hands

How would you feel about not setting yourself up for resentment anymoe by relying on your H to picking up the kids? Or is there a payoff for the denial, for the lying to yourself that he's picking them up? Jayne, c'mon, he AIN'T picking those kids up. Rule of 20, what can you set up for next time?

Will your mom take the kids out for an hour if you ask her? Steve starts taking calls at 6am CST, you could get an early appointment and pretend that you're in the shower. Run the water so your mom doesn't hear. Sit in the closet. Drop her off for a mani-pedi. Leave her with the kids, tell her you're going for a mani-pedi Am I at 20 ideas for that Rule of 20 yet?

Hi Stella, thanks for replying! I really want advice. I know it's hard to picture what goes on without seeing or hearing exactly how things go. I'll try to give more detailed examples.

I don't think I'm nagging him to have unpleasant "talks" about bad things of our relationship. I feel that issues are not resolved because we NEVER discuss the issues, he just waits for me to "get over it". So I never feel they are resolved. But I'm not asking him to resolve anything, not anymore. I have recently asked him to talk to Steve. I've also told him I wanted to discuss things related to parenting; but we never had those discussions.

I would be happy to have ANY type of communicating with him. The times when I stupidly let down my defenses are usually because he comes to me and talks about *something*. Literally, just about anything at this point. I admit that a discussion that is purely logistical doesn't do anything as far as building intimacy, but anything else. A comment on a book he's reading, or something that happened at work, is usually the best I ever get, and that is less than once every couple months.

I'm really not making demands to him to talk. I gave that up a LOOOOOONG time ago. Every now and then (maybe once every 6 months) my frustration level gets so high that I break down and try to let him know that I need *something*, *anything*. I feel grateful when he just takes a moment to coordinate the day's activities. I try to not ask him to do that, I'm tired of the rejection. I just wait for him to bring it up. Hence, I hear at 9 p.m. on Tuesday that (yet again) he can't pick the kids up on Wednesday, the only day of the week I've asked him to be responsible for.

This morning's SF was without a single word being spoken, as usual. He did ask last night what I wanted to get done today, so that was something, but it was just logistics and I just felt withdrawn. I guess it's hard to explain, I guess I shoulda felt grateful but instead I just kinda felt like "Oh so now you're actually asking me something?" I didn't say that, I answered nicely and tried to coordinate things with him, but I felt bitter.

I am soooooooooo NOT asking him to talk about difficult issues. Another example: I am exceedingly grateful when he agrees to watch a movie with me. Not go out for dinner and a movie; just watch a movie rented or downloaded, in the evening after the kids have gone to sleep. We've done that twice since moving here in August. Other than that, we do NOTHING together.

Oh, a few nights ago he wanted to show me how to drive his new ATV snowplow. Even though it was freezing and night-time, I agreed, cus it was about the most RC we'd had in months.

I'm extremely familiar with how much guys talk. I've been married before, plus I'm in perhaps the most male-dominated field there is. We aren't talking about the typical man here. He may have tendencies toward Asperger's syndrome. He hardly ever talks to his brothers either, for instance, and he has no friends with who he even does "guy things" or talks "guy stuff" with.

Our MC told us I was about average for a woman as far as wanting to talk, and he was well below normal for being willing to talk. Thanks to the stereotype that the wife has unrealistic expectations for wanting to talk, he just assumed I was being unreasonable and that he was justified in totally disregarding my requests. The MC told him that it was perfectly reasonable for me to want to have a 5-minute conversation. It took some convincing, but he did start acting like he believed it, for awhile at least.

Could I be happy without anything from him? I guess that's what I'm wondering, and I'm wondering if I should be wondering that. Is that all I can hope for, a business partnership type thing? Where the only thing we talk about is logistics?

Also, should I just IB the parenting stuff? Example: if I want the kids to have chores and earn an allowance; to have a family movie night, and a family game night; to have consistent discipline instead of reinforcing the negative through inconsistent discipline, etc, do I just go ahead and start doing those things myself, even if it means over-ruling something he's said?

Hi ears! I really appreciate you taking a minute even if you're busy!!!!

I forgot about the 180. Yep that may be less painful. Thanks for the reminder. I'll go refresh my memory of it and see if I can come up with a plan.

One thing I'm trying to tell myself is what you just said, he ain't picking those kids up. I am telling myself that next semester I won't even ask him to, ever. For me, that type of resolve usually comes as a result of me working through feeling bitter, and withdrawing, and not *allowing* him to meet any needs. So I guess I'm "nursing" my bitterness to strengthen my resolve, if that makes sense... but then I feel guilty for nursing my bitterness. But when I don't, then I get blind-sided by expectations and disappointment.

If I am coming out of withdrawal, I dunno if that's a good thing. I think I'm safer in withdrawal. The 180 might be good.

So the Rule of 20... 20 things I can do to be independent from needing H to do anything? Like, take care of childcare... take the kids to get movies for a movie night without asking H if he wants to... over-ruling things he says to the kids that I drastically disagree with, but that he refuses to discuss... leaving H out of deciding chores and allowance for the kids...

I was thinking of this yesterday, and I was wishing I'd have car trouble or something, so I could demonstrate my resolve to not ask him anything by not even calling him for help. When the kids and I were stuck in a ditch in the blizzard, he was annoyed that I called him and asked him to call AAA for me, but I was down to one bar on my cell phone battery and I was afraid that AAA would put me on hold until I ran out of battery. I would just love to have that back again to do over, preferably with a full battery.

Ok so my Rule of 20 includes things like, be more responsible so I don't need to ask for help. Think more like the sort of guy who hates to ask anyone for help, who toughs it out himself. So, make sure my cell phone is always charged, that I don't leave anything at home that I need, prepare ahead of time, etc... all good things to do anyway.

But I just can NOT do everything, and I can NOT do everything perfectly. So something has to slide. I'm trying to be realistic here. So if I do all the childcare stuff, and am not allowed to make mistakes and stuff, then I just gotta let a lot of the DS slide.

jayne, for some reason your marriage reminds me of KLD's. Don't know why, maybe cos the H is always silent. But I have to tell you that you are now doing, at least it seems to me, what I spent the first 20 years of my marriage doing - denying myself. Excusing him. Settling. Trying to convince myself this is good enough.

But it isn't. I simply can't see you surviving in this marriage, the way it is, for another 10, 20, 40 years. Not without you collapsing somehow because it is not a true marriage for you.

My doctor is now telling me I may need surgery because I've held in my tension for so many years that they simply can't fix my uber tight back/neck muscles. That is what I see for you in 10 more years if you don't change something.

But the only way I can see you changing anything is being willing to say enough. Why do we so often see here where men simply don't 'get it' until the wife can stand no more and leaves? I truly think it's something endemic to males. They won't move until it's shoved in their face and they have no other option.

I don't want you to leave your H. But I do want you to see that your happiness is more important than being able to say you're married.