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My son is going through this now, and his fiance is "sorry". He is 24 and hasn't slept through the night for a month. He can't eat, cries a lot, and is completely heartbroken. Believer, your son has ignored God's commandments at his own peril. His girlfriend "cheating" on him in no way compared to the pain of adultery. I personally believe in many ways it is WORSE for a fully repentant FWS. I've actually lived with one and seen her torment.
Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW) D-Day August 2005 Married 11/1982 3 Sons 27,25,23 Empty Nesters. Fully Recovered.
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Wow. Add me to the emotionally unhealthy people. I don't think a FWS EVER truly realizes the pain and damage they have caused. They may think they do, but they don't.
My ex is remorseful, but he will never understand how he tore my heart out, the thousands of sleepless nights.
My son is going through this now, and his fiance is "sorry". He is 24 and hasn't slept through the night for a month. He can't eat, cries a lot, and is completely heartbroken. See believer, I can't wrap my brain around how you can classify your unmarried son in the same category as a BS, and think that a FWS who has recovered their marriage can't understand - remember the FWS in a recovered marriage also shattered their own marriage and does deal with much grief over that... You see, Mr. W cheated on me REPEATEDLY before we married, and YES, it hurt TERRIBLY...I was devastated in fact...same stuff, didn't eat or sleep...Hey, the week of our engagement I even received a card in the mail that said, "Congratulations on your engagement, too bad Mr. W had to sleep with so many of your friends first!"...and it named names - one of those names was actually true, but I didn't find that out til after my affair - the girl caught the bouquet at our wedding and held our dd, AND slept with my little brother after our reception!!! Bad, really bad, yes...BUT, I do not believe for a second that that is the same as what Mr. W felt when I betrayed him by committing "real adultery"...I don't think it's in the same ballpark really...the stakes are much higher in a marriage... Mrs. W
FWW ~ 47 ~ MeFBH ~ 50 ~ MrWonderingDD ~ 17 Dday ~ 2005 ~ Recovered
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In addition, for those who decide to tell Aphelion he is 'bitter or cynical' you sound kinda like new waywards when they come here and get a 2x4 from the BS's. They tell us BS's how we are 'bitter and cynical' due to our pasts. When you start using the same words as waywards I think you're in poor company. Well, I am not a wayward, am not in the company of waywards and never carry water for them, and I see extreme bitterness and cynicism in him. So that disproves your point. Sometimes this accusation speaks of the accuser, and sometimes the person actually is cynical. It is the latter in this case. It appears you cannot tell the difference.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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In addition, for those who decide to tell Aphelion he is 'bitter or cynical' you sound kinda like new waywards when they come here and get a 2x4 from the BS's. They tell us BS's how we are 'bitter and cynical' due to our pasts. When you start using the same words as waywards I think you're in poor company. Well, I am not a wayward, am not in the company of waywards and never carry water for them, and I see extreme bitterness and cynicism in him. So that disproves your point. Sometimes this accusation speaks of the accuser, and sometimes the person actually is cynical. It is the latter in this case. It appears you cannot tell the difference. Well it would seem YOU have spoken so all is decided! "It IS the latter in this case"! You don't know if I can tell the difference or not since I have not judged Aphelion.
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Well it would seem YOU have spoken so all is decided!
"It IS the latter in this case"!
You don't know if I can tell the difference or not since I have not judged Aphelion. Yet you have no qualms "judging" those who identify his clear and present cynicism.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Believer, your son has ignored God's commandments at his own peril. His girlfriend "cheating" on him in no way compared to the pain of adultery. The only difference between being cheated on by a girlfriend and adultery is a piece of paper and a man-made ceremony. What if they had dated for several years? What if he truly loved her, but was waiting to marry until they were finished with college, etc.? The parts of my brain that hurt the worst don't care one bit about the marriage certificate, or the ring on my finger. I loved her, she betrayed me, I was crushed. As far as God's commandments go...what about all the "good Christians" out there, and even on this site, who have been ripped apart by infidelity? Is God punishing them, too? [quote=believer]I personally believe in many ways it is WORSE for a fully repentant FWS. I've actually lived with one and seen her torment. Well, if you thought HER torment was bad, you should've seen her BS. No FWS, repentent or not, can even begin to imagine the suffering of the person they betrayed. Even the suggestion by a FWS that they "get it" shows a lack of remorse, or plenty of ignorance. No, they don't get it, and never will.
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In addition, for those who decide to tell Aphelion he is 'bitter or cynical' you sound kinda like new waywards when they come here and get a 2x4 from the BS's. They tell us BS's how we are 'bitter and cynical' due to our pasts. When you start using the same words as waywards I think you're in poor company. Well, I am not a wayward, am not in the company of waywards and never carry water for them, and I see extreme bitterness and cynicism in him. So that disproves your point. Sometimes this accusation speaks of the accuser, and sometimes the person actually is cynical. It is the latter in this case. It appears you cannot tell the difference. Cynical is smart. Faith in your fellow man is stupid.
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The only difference between being cheated on by a girlfriend and adultery is a piece of paper and a man-made ceremony. What if they had dated for several years? What if he truly loved her, but was waiting to marry until they were finished with college, etc.? Ah yes. The much touted "piece of paper". You really should read Dr Harley's book "Buyers, Renters and freeloaders" Comparing a renter/buyer or a freeloader/buyer relationships is like comparing apples and eggs. As far as God's commandments go...what about all the "good Christians" out there, and even on this site, who have been ripped apart by infidelity? Is God punishing them, too? Who ever said God was punishing people? That would be your misinterpretation. I am a "good christian" as is my wife but I never considered God was punishing me. Well, if you thought HER torment was bad, you should've seen her BS. Well I AM her BS. Duh. No FWS, repentent or not, can even begin to imagine the suffering of the person they betrayed. Even the suggestion by a FWS that they "get it" shows a lack of remorse, or plenty of ignorance.
No, they don't get it, and never will. Well thanks for displaying your ignorance.
Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW) D-Day August 2005 Married 11/1982 3 Sons 27,25,23 Empty Nesters. Fully Recovered.
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Well it would seem YOU have spoken so all is decided!
"It IS the latter in this case"!
You don't know if I can tell the difference or not since I have not judged Aphelion. Yet you have no qualms "judging" those who identify his clear and present cynicism. And what did I judge you? Uncaring, mean-spirited, cruel? I only pointed out that we should not judge his opinion as being derived from some self-conceived cynicism on his part. Maybe he really feels waywards can never change.
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There is nothing "smart" about being so cynical so that you paint every WS with the same broad brush as if you have psychic abilities to read their minds.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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There is nothing "smart" about being so cynical so that you paint every WS with the same broad brush as if you have psychic abilities to read their minds. Psychic powers like..."It IS the latter"?
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…unless you are GOD and can see into the hearts of every wayward, you cannot possibly know if this is true or not. I’ll leave their conscience to God, thank you very much. What is in their black hearts is between them and their god. I don't believe it is true simply because I am a former wayward minded person and can smell bullcrap a mile away. I KNOW when they are real.
Wayward cheaters are amatuer bullcrappers and are laughable when it comes to subterfuge. Most are halfwits in this department.
Could your attitude about this be related to your own situation? I know your WW was in a very long term affair. Most likely this is not an aberration of character for her, but a way of life. Because of that you tend to stereotype ALL waywards with your own experience is what I suspect...
I am very concerned about your cynicism, Aphelion, and wonder if there has been a resumption in your W's affair? I say this as your friend. Well, also speaking as a friend, I think my detector may simply be more sensitive than yours. Without exception, ever adulterer I know irl is primarily sorry they were caught or otherwise had to stop what they were doing. Take the very ordinary case of a former close friend of mine married to a very lovely woman for 15 years. He had a six-month affair going strong when OW’s H found out and he had to scurry under a flat rock to avoid a severe beating. The affair was also exposed to his wife by OW’s H. So my former friend commits to rebuilding his marriage. He was so sincere. Oh, so sincere. But wait! Six months later he is caught having another affair. He said it was to get over the first affair. Right. Right. He is just another ordinary adulterer. Like they all are. Want to know what he is actually remorseful about now? Child support for his three young daughters. Oh, and because his BW would not forgive him the second adultery. That really irks him. On MB one can read of remorseful adulterers here and there. If this is what they sound like irl they have no more cred with me than those two dozen or so adulterers I know personally. Just like them all. They would still be in the affair if they had not been caught or the affair burnt out because, well, because they are adulterers practicing adultery and that always works out well in the end for them, doesn’t it… They do not change. Sorry, they do not change. Even Dr H says never again trust your spouse, lol.
"Never forget that your pain means nothing to a WS." ~Mulan
"An ethical man knows it is wrong to cheat on his wife. A moral man will not actually do it." ~ Ducky
WS: They are who they are.
When an eel lunges out And it bites off your snout Thats a moray ~DS
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My son fully understands that the choices he made are causing some of the consequences. He and his fiance were high-school sweethearts. They have been together for a long time.
And he is hurting, and no, she doesn't get it. She is remorseful, but has no clue.
My ex is remorseful. I really believe he is. But until one has gone through this, they have no idea.
My niece went through infidelity right before I did. I didn't get it then. She is beautiful, talented, smart, an ocology RN in a teaching position. She was so depressed she went to bed for a month, had work problems and was obsessed. I told her she was better off without the bum. Now I look back and cringe at my words.
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There is nothing "smart" about being so cynical so that you paint every WS with the same broad brush as if you have psychic abilities to read their minds. Psychic powers like..."It IS the latter"? psychic powers as in: No adulterer, F or no F, has ever experienced true remorse over what they did or the pain they caused others. And none ever will. If you think you see remorse, ignore it. It is as fake and as full of self-serving lies as their adultery. Do not ever believe an adulterer or a former adulterer in anything. Period.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Personally, I think WS understand that they hurt us, but I don't think they understand to what degree. They can't comprehend the absolute devastation they've inflicted - the anxiety, the grief, the level of anger, the nightmares, the inability to eat...because they've never experienced that kind of betrayal. It's a little like trying to explain to a first-time mother what giving birth feels like. You know it hurts, but you don't know what that kind of pain feels like until you go through it.
Me(bw/fww) 39 recovering with amazing fwh/bh 36 DS 7 DS 4
His EA Oct '07 - 7/2/08 (d-day) NC 7/4/08
Hers EA/RA 6/'09-3/'10 NC 3/17/10
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Personally, I think WS understand that they hurt us, but I don't think they understand to what degree. They can't comprehend the absolute devastation they've inflicted - the anxiety, the grief, the level of anger, the nightmares, the inability to eat...because they've never experienced that kind of betrayal. It's a little like trying to explain to a first-time mother what giving birth feels like. You know it hurts, but you don't know what that kind of pain feels like until you go through it. Neither can a BS understand the pain a WS goes through.
Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW) D-Day August 2005 Married 11/1982 3 Sons 27,25,23 Empty Nesters. Fully Recovered.
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Well, also speaking as a friend, I think my detector may simply be more sensitive than yours. I would disagree on the basis that your wife was able to con you for YEARS. Not so with me. You also are not able to discern true signs of remorse of certain FWS on this forum. I am. Your detector is probably very broken from living in a situation where you have been deceived for years. Without exception, ever adulterer I know irl is primarily sorry they were caught or otherwise had to stop what they were doing. This pretty much proves my point. You are basing your opinion of WS based on purely anecdotal information and have whitewashed all others based on anecdotal information. As I suspected, you believe that all are just the same as your wife and the individual case you cite here. However, my anecdotal information can cancel out yours. They do not change. Sorry, they do not change.
Even Dr H says never again trust your spouse, lol. Dr. Harley does not ever say that waywards do not change, though, Aphelion, because they do. He would disagree with your assessment - he told me this when I called him about serial cheaters. He even believes serial cheaters can change. For many cheaters, though, having an affair was an aberration of character, so there was no change to be had. In that aspect you are right. But, I suspect you are basing this opinion on your own wife, for whom this is a way of life due to her years long affair. Am I right about that?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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psychic powers as in: No adulterer, F or no F, has ever experienced true remorse over what they did or the pain they caused others. And none ever will. If you think you see remorse, ignore it. It is as fake and as full of self-serving lies as their adultery. Do not ever believe an adulterer or a former adulterer in anything. Period. No, psychic powers as in yours: I don't believe it is true simply because I am a former wayward minded person and can smell bullcrap a mile away. I KNOW when they are real.
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Just like them all. They would still be in the affair if they had not been caught or the affair burnt out because, well, because they are adulterers practicing adultery and that always works out well in the end for them, doesn’t it…
They do not change. Sorry, they do not change. I am very sorry to hear your wife is still in contact with her OM Aphelion. How long has this been going on for?
Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW) D-Day August 2005 Married 11/1982 3 Sons 27,25,23 Empty Nesters. Fully Recovered.
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Exactly right...............
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