Just another thought.


Maybe at the beginning of the next mediation session...I need to look WS in the eye and let him know that we are going through this because it's what he wants....and clearly let him know that it's not what I want...if not for him...for me...AGAIN? :crosseyedcrazy:

...it helps to see the 'place' where some of you are at (the likes of Bugs, SD, Fox, SL, B, Cind...to name a few), and I am wanting to 'get there' too...

I don't have to make a decision about it today...if WS wants this, along with the Court system, it will get me through Plan D...whether I want to or not. I would prefer going through it with some sort of it being a CHOICE...and knowing that no stone has been left unturned...which can never be the case....as I see an affair as an attempt to side-step the hard work involved in marriage building.

Sorry if my posts are particularly long today...that's just where I am at....TODAY.

I don't know the answers, Luna. I don't know if you HAVE to interact with your WH to make this decision. What has he shown you all this time? Has he ever shown true remorse? Has he ever shown you that he may possibly desire recovery? Has he ever ended, even for a short time, his A with OW?

I don't believe it's necessary to expose yourself to a wayward in order to make the decision to D. I do believe that you have to have exhaust what you can do, and KNOW that this is your last decision to make.

The false recoveries definitely hurt, and I can say that it did make it easier to divorce someone who seemed so far gone. Remember though, that I didn't file until a couple of months after the Z left. I wanted to be sure I was choosing it not because I wanted the Z to see that and attempt to come back again; no games on my part, no mind tricks. I was truly ready for the D. I knew that the Z was not going to be ready anytime soon, to attempt recovery, if ever, and I knew that I was unwilling to bend at all anymore. HE would have an uphill battle for a long time, and I realized he couldn't muster the strength to do it.

There really isn't much we can say here. You have to decide if you want to wait any longer. Also, if there is something you want to say to him to be sure that you have exhausted all efforts, I believe you should.

This is why I suggest contacting the Harleys to see what they think you should do.

What I say above is what *I* would do.

If you want my opinion, I would say come out of Plan B, say your peace, see what he says and move foward with the D. I don't believe you are going to hear what you would like. I believe he is going to keep his head firmly lodged up his rump.

Your WH is still a man who abandoned his marriage a family. HE has not redeemed himself in any way. So he's shown up for some family stuff, done some things and said some things. I'm not seeing any remorse or any more work than bare minimum on his part. Just sayin...

Hi SL,


THIS is totally true...

I expect to resume mediation with WS in January...letting the holidays go by...will evaluate then what I want to do... I know that the decision is MINE...I guess this is not the best time as my decision-making process seems to be a little out of wack...but wonder if there ever a 'good time' for anything that we don't really want.

For now, in the mix, has been added grieving for my Dad. Tears out of nowhere...surface up...feelings of being a 'little lost'.... spoke about it to some friends...it's to be expected for at least 6 months. Great!

The fact of the matter is...I am feeling 'fragile' right now, and I know for Plan D I need to get to a 'stronger' place to get through it.

I really appreciate your input, SL.

I don't ever think it's wise to base a decision solely on how you are feeling, but it should bear some weight in your decision. Right now, you are grieving a great loss, on top of the continued grief you encounter with WH. It's not surprising that you question all of this mess, with the grief that you are experiencing. I know you see how this could all work out, and shake your head at how shortsighted your WH is. WE (the BS here on MB) know there is a way to get it all back, and in many respects, get back a BETTER marriage. PRoblem is, the WS is a brick wall to all great solutions and ideas :RollieEyes:

Luna,

I agree with SL. Your WH has shown no remorse or any willingness to R your M. Please think about that. And my feeling is, the longer they are gone, the harder it will be to recover. He has been with her for 4 years now, right? Luna, can you honestly say that you could ever put that behind you? I think R is hard enough when the A ends within a short timeframe, but 3-4 years? Just think about it over the holidays.

Think seriously about how life would be if he came back. I'm just thinking out loud here, but I think of little silly things like how we folded towels and underwear, the kind of toothpaste we used, the food we ate, the way we cooked, the places where we ate out. I know it sounds silly, but if he were back, he may be doing all of that differently because of his life with her. I think about how difficult it might be. You may grab the Folgers, and he may say he prefers the local brand. You are then going to think about how he liked Folgers when he was home, and now he drinks "her" brand. He may have all new preferences and habits which will be a reflection of her. Can you live with that? I'm not so sure I could.

Anyway dear, you have suffered the loss of a parent and you should lay low for a couple of months until you mourn that loss. Your heart is heavy right now. You don't want to lose something else - your family. Don't deal with it until you are ready. Don't put yourself out there for rejection again too soon. You don't need that right now. Take care of you.

Luna,

I read your post yesterday and I have to tell you that it really spoke to my heart as I can so relate to how you are feeling. So I guess first off, I want you to know that you are not alone in the way that you feel.

Next, I think you are getting some really good advice. You are not at a emotionally stable place right now with the recent passing of your father. I see you recognize that yourself, and I'm really impressed with that. Pat yourself on the back for seeing it. Yet know that there will come the time, and fairly soon that you will be ready to face these decisions.

I think a call to the Harleys would do you a world of good.

Also, I'm with SL in what *I* would do -

While all waywards are individuals, I have to say that in this description, yours and Drac are 2 of a kind. There's been the occassional glimmer of someone we once knew & loved with all of our hearts,,,,,,,,,,,,,,but that is NOT who & what they are today. It's not likely that they ever will be again.

I also agree with Chai as to thinking about how long it has been and the inevitable changes that you would see in him should you be together again. I loved her simple examples of the small things that could easily make it just too hard. Think about those seriously.

In the meantime, do make some plans on how you are going to really embrace & enjoy the holidays for YOURSELF. You deserve that happiness.

Start by having a wonderful Happy Thanksgiving!

Just want you all to know that I am doing much better today.

Yesterday was definitely hard...called up a few friends for support. Was glad to get home, and there, I had to 'come clean' with DS17, who was very understanding. Went to see DS17's game...and when I went to bed...I was 'emotionally' drained.

Hi SL,


I totally agree, SL...and appreciate your thoughts, and know that they are based on a lot of experience and reflection on your part and do not fall on deaf ears.

Hi CL,


Thank you for painting a clearER picture of what life would be like were R to ever be an option. It certainly gives me something to think about.


This was evident by the kind of day I had yesterday...I don't know how long I am going to postpone decision-making...but it certainly doesn't have to be TODAY nor TOMORROW.

Thanks for the concern you show me, CL.

Hi Bugs,


Thanks for reinforcing the consensus that, seeing that my emotions are all over the place, I better lay low so that I can get myself at a place to be able to make 'healthy' decisions.


I always thought of contacting them were WS show interest in R. Since that is not the case, Bugs, I am wondering how see their contribution at this time....for personal recovery?


I wish you the same, Bugs.

Luna,

I absolutely believe your personal recovery would benefit from a session with the Harleys. Who knows better the minds of waywards and the betrayed? Hearing from an educated professional an evaluation of your sitch from both sides could do you a world of good.

Steve counseled me not only on how to interact with Drac and what I could expect, but also we talked a whole lot about ME. About where I was emotionally, what would possibly happen depending on what I decided to do, what impact Drac's actions or non-actions might have on me, and what was best for ME personally.

The benefit I got from those sessions was invaluable.

Hi Bugs,


I had a few sessions with Steve, and I certainly agree. I am going to consider it, I think, when I more able to gather my thoughts and know better what I would like him to help me with...

I know you are very busy, Bugs, so thanks for getting back to me so quickly.

I am feeling much better today, but I need to be prepared to experience more of the same for a little while...and learn to be patient with myself. I see emotions a bit like wild cards...part of the mix, but not the whole deck...learning to play them when they come up.

Well, DS12 yesterday celebrated his DS13 with friends...so spent the day making sure a bunch of 13 yr-olds enjoyed themselves and were well fed, some stayed over...

So, today I am 'recuperating'...everything went well. DS13 really enjoyed himself with his friends. Tried to let him make as many 'decisions' as he could be allowed...and he liked that a lot.

I am glad I was able to give him the attention and confirmation of how much he means to me.

In a couple of weeks DS17 will celebrate being DS18... expectations are high, but I hope to convey the 'essential' to him as well.

My boys mean everything to me.

I spoke to my Mom. Listened to her sharing her sorrow about missing Dad... Told her I was planning to go back and visit HER during the holidays. It looks like that is giving her something to look forward to, and she was in better spirits when we ended our conversation.

In really really difficult times, the thought of the pain it would cause those that I love is why the idea of ending it all doesn't tempt me.

Hard to say what I would choose to do were I totally alone in this world, knowing that no one would miss me or care whether I existed or not. I am sorry, I know this is a very dark thought, and it's just that...a thought...and not necessarily the most cheerful one...it does show the difference 'TO LOVE and TO CARE' and 'TO BE LOVED and TO BE CARED FOR' makes in choosing... LIFE.

Luna, to a certain extent, I feel in that very situation. With my mother in the nursing home now, and DD in her world of addiction, I have only my brother who is older than me and not in good health right now. It is tough. I know that if I wasn't around, it would be days before anyone would realize that I was gone. I guess what keeps me going is my dog who depends on me everyday, and also my business. My customers always tell me how they appreciate it. So I do feel like I make some kind of contribution to society. So, I guess we all think those dark thoughts once in a while. I think it's part of the whole BS pity party thing that we go through.

But in the end, we all seem to get through it. My addiction counselor said that the will to live is very strong which is why she convinced me that my DD will survive somehow.

Choose Life. It sucks sometimes I know.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{LUNA}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

I honestly wish I could take your pain from you, throw it in any waywards way and let you feel some relief.

I'm overwhelmed by your words of struggles, pain, emotions, feelings, sadness, and struggle with wanting to keep on pushing through. Damn, I understand this and remember this pain so well. These emotions that just wipe us out, that take a hold and don't seem to let go for the LONGEST times.

I can't lie and say why I am walking through this, or that in many ways, I deserved what I got, but YOU... You are so loving so giving, so understanding so amazing, it just seems so unreasonable.

It almost seems trivial to say to keep walking in faith, toe nail by toe nail, because G-d is right there with you. But my recovery had to grasp that concept and hold on for dear life. I WANTED to die last year. I couldn't imagine I could have recovered. I still can't imagine my life without my H, but Luna, like yours, there is NOTHING.

When I read what Chai wrote about the little things, it was like a sledge hammer just destroyed the last part of my heart for WH. She is so dead on. They are NOT our H. They haven't been for a very long time. They are coming home to us because they don't WANT us.

Why are we waiting around thinking there is a chance? Look at us, we continually give our hearts to men that don't care, don't want to be in our lives and want something else. We continually look to our own emotions and pull them apart, dissect them, walk through the pain. etc....

I'm angry that you are hurting so bad. I'm angry that there isn't anything I can do to to take this pain from you, but keep encouraging you to push forth because there is an end for us one day.

Chai, I gotta tell you I lived in this fantasy world, that WH will wake up one day. And when he wakes up, he won't be using the same toothpaste, he will have been forever changed, he will be a stranger in our home.

I think I'm done.... I think it's time to stop thinking my M could EVER be saved..

I'm so sorry for the t/j

Oh gosh guys, I didn't mean to put the damper on your hopes. It's just over and over in my mind I have gone through a day with WH back here, and those are things that I think about. One thing that triggered it was I thought about a time where I snooped through his company cc statements and found many, many charges to a restaurant in her state. It was a restaurant that we also have here, and I liked it but he hated it. HATED it. Would never go there with me.

Guess OW liked it too.

Then I started to wonder what other habits of OW's he may have picked up along the way. Is he now used to different shampoo, laundry detergent, toothpaste etc.? The reality is that yes, he probably is. Everyday then would be a trigger, would it not? I don't know if I could deal with it. I just don't know.

Maybe I'm making mountains out of molehills. I tend to do that sometimes....

We will get through this together.

Yes, we will.

Hi CL and Queenie,

I really really appreciate your thoughts.

Right now, I am not 'imagining' possible future triggers... because at this point, nothing justifies my going there. WS so far is only interested in 'cake-eating'...and that just won't cut it for ME! ...what would I choose to do were WS's intentions + actions (N/C with OP) be otherwise?

I choose not to decide TODAY. Should M recovery be an option WS wants me to consider in the FUTURE, I will evaluated it...THEN!

Yes, for sure, right now there is pain when I remember happy days as a family with S...because there were many. I choose to go there sometimes because I want to get past the pain, and reconnect to those moments, because they are a part of me, part of my history, part of the boys.

TODAY, WH is not someone I want in my life...so he is NOT part of it...only to the extent that it is required given our financial and parental obligations.... I do care enough about me to want to protect myself as much as I can....and even MORE so, KNOWING that when I hurt others who care about me/depend on me.... hurt, too.

I choose to 'share' and burden you all with my pain.... because you KNOW it, have EXPERIENCED and UNDERSTAND it, too...and I am sorry if doing so provokes/triggers pain for you as well.

In the end, the bottom line is what counts.


....KNOW that I have many many reasons to be grateful for what IS PART of my life.

...least of all, those of us here, caring about each other.

...KNOW how much THAT deeply touches me.

CL & QUEENIE

Hi, Luna

You did some really excellent introspection last week. I agree with SL and Bugs.


I think it's been long enough, Luna. Yours is the gold standard for a dark plan B. So effective, in fact, that it will take effort on your part to do something else.

But I think it's time to transition. WH has had every chance to wake up and hasn't. You've waited long enough. You can see it:


These are sound instincts. If you're not sure, a session with Steve can help you sort yourself out. If you're worried you're not strong enough at the moment, I would counter that there will always be something. I think you are strong enough, but maybe it should be a New Year's Resolution?

I think you're afraid it's going to hurt, and so you want to put it off. I also see you having some inklings that things will be better on the Other Side. It is going to hurt some, so steel yourself for it, and rip off the band-aid. Get it over with.

I know you can do it. You're a Goddess.

Luna

Hi SD,


SD... :RollieEyes:...have no fear - it IS going to HURT... and I fully expect the band-aid to come off regardless of what I want...and I KNOW I will SURVIVE it

...and thanks to all you for your patience and for cheering me on....even a turtle, given some continued perseverance, DOES get to the finish line (sooner or later :crosseyedcrazy:)

...and, yes, you can be sure, before this is all over, I will take the opportunity.... FOR ME ONLY and FOR THE RECORD....(not expecting anything from WS...short of a miracle!)...I will want to make it clear to WS, again, that this is something HE WANTS...not ME!

I can see the rollercoaster of emotions from Dad's passing away surfacing at times... some absent-mindedness... some triggering... tears wanting to flow down for no apparent reason... hurting for my Mom's pain, yet wanting to be strong enough to be able to listen and comfort her and support her...

...some old 'friends' being replaced by others...

...and, as always, like rays of sunshine on a rainy day....the smile and the sound of laughter of my two lovely boys...piercing through my heart...making this journey... worthwhile.

I think you're doing great, Luna.

I think you should do this. It's not Plan B per se, but Jennifer encouraged me to do it frequently. Tell him that this is not what you want and that it doesn't have to be this way.

Maybe talk this over with Steve as part of your transition plan.