Am I remorseful? You have no idea. I EARNED the "F" and it took YEARS to fully respect and accept myself after the infidelity.

I got so sick I almost died... and it wasn't because I was caught... it was because of what I'd DONE. And, as an added result, I ruined my family... one big mess that I created. Nobody to blame but myself.

And, by the way, my first H cheated repeatidly... so I've been on both sides of this... and as horrible as my (then)H's infidelity was, mine was worse... because I did it. Me. A Christian. Married 18 years at the time. 3 teenagers. Got through all the affairs of his. I KNEW the pain. I did it anyway. No wonder I wanted to die.

Fond feelings for the OM? Are you kidding me? I have ZERO fond memories. I never ever ever want to see that man, his wife, or anyone who even knew about it again. Of course, I have to see people who know (like family) and as I said above, years later I still have trouble looking some of them in the eye. If I saw the OM today I'd probably throw up.

It has been ten years since my infidelity... yep... it happened in early 1999... and I am amazed at how emotional it still makes me - I hate what I did.

Yes, I am remorseful... and always will be.

Krazy,

The bible actually says if we refuse to forgive that God hands us over to Satan to be tormented.

You sound pretty tormented to me so you work it out!

I also think you confuse Forgiveness with Reconcilliation and Restoration - these are 3 distinct things IMO.

Forgiveness is you passing on YOUR right to collect on a debt and handing them over to God to deal with.

Reconcilliation is a further step from this - it is not a necessary step after forgiveness but forgiveness makes it possible.

Restoration of the friendship/marriage is also possible after the above 2 steps.

I douby a rapist would be someone you would ever be reconciled with much less restore the relationship but forgivness is necessary.

Unforgiveness hurts YOU.

Who said that? There is no set timeline. You have said FWS don't ever deserve forgiveness and there is no such thing as a repentant FWS which is very different than what others have said. This is apples and oranges. You never HAVE to forgive your W, but your M will royally suck if for the rest of your life she can NEVER be anything other than a [censored] up cheater who has little or zero humanity in your eyes.

Krazy,

You were the one that stated that a WS will NEVER repentant. You were the one that stated that a WS should NEVER be forgiven. You were the on that stated that they will NOT feel remorse or pain for what they did.

No one said you HAD to forgive your spouse. You are the one stating they should NEVER be forgiven.

Nice try on trying to redirect from your indefensible position, but it won't fly.

OH, and forgiveness does not mean you ever have to accept a person back in your life, including your favorite gang rapist. You seem to like gang rapists somehow, I don't know why you keep making such comparisons.

God Bless,

JL

I just wanted to add to my post above that as a repentent Christian, I am forgiven by God, who has the ability to see beyond what I know about myself.

It took much longer for me to forgive myself.

I also know that I am forgiven by my ex-H. I forgave him, too, for his unfaithfulness to me... completely. What a gift for both of us!

And, as if that weren't enough, my children forgave me, too.

I am so blessed.

I didn't want to walk away from here without expressing my gratitude for the forgiveness I received.

Hoo boy, JL.

I detect a degree of fuzzy thinking here.

I know you didn’t address me specifically, but my ears do burn.

So, I am under the impression we are both Applied Physicists – shall we compare experiments?

Setting my wife aside, I know approximately two dozen real-life adulterers personally, or I did until I cut them out of my life. Not one, nada, none, are truly remorseful. And further, about ¼ of them are repeat adulterers. This is real life personal knowledge, not anecdotes as Mel so likes to put it. Real life, real people, genuine personal interactions. I have seen in first person singular over time their (what they believe is hidden) lack of remorse.

Oh, they all talked a very good game. Every last one of them. They cried, they said they felt sick over what they did. They moaned and groaned and gnashed their teeth with the best of us sinners. But, they all admitted at one time or another, and I do mean all of them, male and female, the adultery was a greate olde tyme while it lasted.

Further, they all have character defects that make it obvious to the most casual observer they were going to commit adultery eventually. Proof of Dr H’s claim we all would do it at the drop of a hat if we could? Anyway, those I still must occasionally interact with still have these character flaws. They would do it again, if they could get away with it.

So, let us see. We are 0 for 24, or so. That’s a confidence interval of what? 1 sigma?

Step two – repentant adulterers on MB (and other web sites): they also all talk a good game. Same repentance MO, in general, in fact. I think they actually believe themselves on occasion too. But read between the lines. The remorse is more for the consequences to themselves in every case. Not primarily for the harm to others. Oh, they say it is for the innocent. But many also claim there were no innocent.

Without exception they do not want to change their basic circumstances if they can avoid it. They want what they want before the adultery, during the adultery and after the adultery. They mainly hope everything and everyone will just move on. It is obvious in what they write, they way they write it. Obvious in all of them. Oh, and they have come to the right place too, haven’t they? Dr H supports this mostly just move on in a different direction approach.

Step three - if we examine any random JFO thread we find a very high incidence of repeat adultery - years apart, too. Another adultery that comes after great professed remorse and great pain for all involved the first time around. You may want to run the numbers for yourself, but the incidence is also around ¼ of the newbies.

For clarity, let me draw on a case study with which you may be familiar. The infamous Ozzie who was so, oh so, remorseful right here on MB a couple of years ago. Sheesh, she even had me believing her. I was asking her for advice, for pity’s sake. And then she goes back into her affair at the first easy opportunity. Man, she had me fooled. But then they all used to fool me, actually, quite easily.

So now we are at several hundred proven unchanged adulterers and zero proven changed adulterers. We are now at maybe three sigma variance.

Perhaps some former adulterers are not presently active adulterers, in the moment. But there are still adulterers down in there somewhere waiting to get out. Dr H agrees with me.

Test them adequately and see what you get.


What is your inference from this probability data?


Mine is: Not ever going to be fooled again by any of them.

QED?


ed: For the record, I have posted before I make an exception for certain limited adultery cases. Outliers in the statistics. All the rest are exactly who the data say they are.

“A one time, first and only time, drunken ONS.

A one and only very short adultery stopped almost immediately by the WS and confessed almost immediately, without a hint of justification.

There are a very, very small minority of genuine mistakes, tripping and falling (and picking up) when least expected. No lying, no hiding, no false recoveries, no justifications, no complaining, no comparing, no withdrawal, no blaming (during any phase of the adultery or the recovery) of the BS, no nothing but complete confession, remorse and total humble acceptance of consequences. It’s obvious the WS didn’t even want to be in the A, in most cases and got the he11 out almost immediately.

But these few are tiny exceptions that prove the rule.”

I wouldn't forgive them. I would seek them out one by one and kill them. But hey, that's my sin to bear.

Aph...while I do not agree that there are NO truly remorseful FWS out there...I do believe that the MAJORITY of the FWS out there are more concerned about appearances and what this mess has done to them. That includes the majority of FWS here on MB.

There are some FWS that I KNOW have truly got it...Mrs. W comes to mind...but there are some, I wouldn't trust as far as I could throw them.

Ap,

Interesting data you got there. You said
First statement you really cannot prove. The last statement in fact shows that not all WS will do it again. As for what keeps them from doing it again, I think we can both speculate on that one, but getting caught is usually why MOST PEOPLE do what they do and not repeat the offense. I don't rob banks because the cost is not worth the reward, but would be an easier way of making a living than doing science. I don't give into temptation because of the consequences. And YES I would be lying if I said that over 30 ++++ years of traveling I have not found desirable women, if the cost would not have been too high.


What would the cost have been? A very hurt W. A loss of my selfrespect. Broken vows. I would imagine if I had failed myself, that would have also made me think twice about doing it again, partly because I would KNOW I could get caught or my guilt would have made me tell my W.

I don't know how to measure true remorse, never did, won't in the future. I also KNOW you nor anyone else can measure it either. Not doing it again, for whatever reason, is the only actual litmus test, and even in your sample only 1/4 did it again, NOT ALL as Krazy was asserting.

Your arguements and data are not persuasive my friend. In fact they show exactly what I said to Krazy to be true.

As for the adultery was a "greate olde tyme while it lasted" of that I have no doubt. Who would do it otherwise? As the famous bank robber answered when asked why he robbed banks.

People don't have affairs because it hurts them, I mean DUH! They have them because it does something for them, and it must give them more pleasure than any pain from the guilt.

When you think about it, one of Harley's big statements is NC forever, why do you think that is? It is because there is attraction, there was fun, there was excitement, AND IT IS ADDICTIVE. HELLO!!!! Anyone discuss withdrawal on this site? Not more than 100's of times per day.

So if you think the WS having fun disqualifies them from being remorseful, from turning away from those choices, from learning to love and respect their spouse, then I would guess you might have been right, but the DATA shows that they in fact do turn away, even your 1/4 says that is so.

Nice try, I am not buying.

Ap, I will also say to you, that your personal situation was/is far worse than many here. If I felt I could offer you any thoughts, advice, pain reliever to help your situation I surely would do so in a heartbeat. Clearly, I am devoid of the proper tools to help you, I sure wish I could.

God Bless,

JL

***EDIT***

'Scuse me for stepping in, but could you please post what Bible Verse this is - I'm very interested - I've had some forgiveness issues in my own life - and I do sympathize with each one on this thread who has been hurt by affairs. I have been there too, and I pray everyone here has healing from these hurts.
God bless,
AMD

...and don't forget the vow to "forsake all others...", amongst other things.

My FWW cheated on my twice. Once before we were M'd, and then again a few years ago. I can without hesitation tell you that the second A hurt a LOT worse than the first.

This thread is about attending work functions where there are known adulterers - at least it began that way. Basically, would you sit in the same room or table as a known WS - not yours, someone else's. Have any of you ever been asked forgiveness by a WS not your own???? Especially someone who is no more than an acquaintance at best?? I've never even seen this in the movies.

Sorry, but I have to agree with Krazy on this. Paint all the known WS's with a broad brush. There are plenty of non-WS's out there to talk to, sit with, and get through crappy work functions with. It's no character defect to stay away from known adulterers. It's self preservation.

Agreed


In fact, it is a character defect to associate with any active adulterer...friend or family.

eta...I would venture a guess that the vast majority of people that have had affairs have had more than one.

I agree that it isn't a character defect to stay away from known adulterers. In my opinion, it is self-preservation for me to stay away from adulterers.

I had a couple former friends who were adulterers. They ended up leaving their BS for OP. In fact, they didn't go back to their M. I dumped them as friends because I couldn't stand to be around them. It was an ugly reminder of A's.

I can't even stand to watch movies that promote A's. How in the world am I going to stand being around co-workers who are adulterers (and still active in their A). If I don't have a choice, and I have to attend the function, I'd rather just ignore them.

I never said it was a character defect to stay away from known adulterers. I said it was a character defect to NOT FORGIVE the repentent. We stay away from adulterers at my workplace by FIRING THEM. That is exactly as it should be.

In my personal life, I have ended a years long friendship with my girlfriend, Theresa, for her affair. She left her H of 35 years for a married man with 2 little children. After divorced, the OM promptly dumped her and went back to his wife. By then, her H was fed up with her and wanted nothing to do with her. Years later she remains wayward minded and is onto her 2nd or 3rd boyfriend. Her grown children want nothing to do with her.

Melodylane, I agree that we should forgive the repentant. I wish most workplaces would fire adulterers, especially if they won't stop.

As for your former friend, Theresa, her situation sounds similar to my M-Uncle. The MW whom he had an A with, lost everything and her family moved out of the state. She & my M-Uncle lived together for years, and then broke up.

Now they are both alone. Pretty sad, but it's there own fault.

I don't think I would interact with co-workers that were known adulterers, repentent or not. I guess it's sort of in the same vien as "self-preservation", but primarily, I don't think I could consistently limit the interaction to "cliche" conversation, which I tend to think is a requirement of "non work" co-worker conversations.

As to the other stuff saying FWS's never "get it", "feel the same pain", are really remorseful, ever change, etc., I guess my response would be "So, what?" Not so what, meaning I don't care, but so, what do you recomend one do?

I can't help but think that position is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Meaning if you think a WS can never earn an "F", then they never will.

One affair partner quit the company so no more contact. The likelihood of interacting with the remaining one is slim and I will avoid and go about my business should our paths cross. My H used to take our children to work every once in awhile if he had to go in over the weekend and they got a kick out of it - those days are over. I don't want that person anywhere near my kids.

See the Parable of the unmerciful servant in Matthew 18. Matt18:34 is the verse I was referencing.